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That's basically it. The Chinese government views the rest of the world through Hobbesian self interest, but in the late 20th century financial way. They want y
by pjc50 10mo ago
That's basically it. The Chinese government views the rest of the world through Hobbesian self interest, but in the late 20th century financial way. They want your money, but lawfully.
The US has turned into something much more vindictive and unpredictable, including threatening to invade Canada.
- anvuong 10mo agoLawfully? How many IPs have they stolen from universities and companies across the world?
- BikiniPrince 10mo agoTheir train industry was built on ripping off companies they forced into poor agreements. They have wrecked industries with technological theft. I suppose it’s lawful from the CCP perspective.
- gmerc 10mo agoYes yes, poor western executives forced to sell their IP portfolio and workforce. Those evil chinese. Lol
- derf_ 10mo agoI do not want to claim that two wrongs make a right, but it is funny that you mention "being forced into poor agreements": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unequal_treaties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unequal_treaties
- BigTTYGothGF 10mo ago> forced into poor agreements Couldn't the poor companies have simply chosen to not do business in China?
- nicoburns 10mo agoThey play things according to their own rules, but at least they have some.
- adastra22 10mo agoWhat rules. China famously flaunts the law everywhere they operate, including in foreign countries.
- faust201 10mo agoLaughing heard inside the POTUS office.
- insane_dreamer 10mo agoNo they don’t. Source: me, lived/worked in China for 6 years. There are two rules: 1) to the strongest (doesn’t matter how you get there, 2) make/keep the right connections (guanxi) that will “apply” regulations to your benefit. Most cut-throat place I’ve ever worked.
- FuriouslyAdrift 10mo agoSame experience... I was told I was not Han and not family so f-you
- overfeed 10mo agoFor how long have WASPs been telling outgroups to go kick rocks (or much worse) in the US?
- insane_dreamer 10mo agoit's not comparable, not by a long shot; the level of insider dealing, corporate theft, and corruption, is nothing like what's in the US (that is until Trump 2.0)
- overfeed 10mo agoHan chauvinism is comparable to Manifest Destiny across multiple dimensions. AFAICT, both groups believe(d), despite initial conditions, their authority is pre-ordained and they are/were taking the nation to it's rightful place in the world/history. Other folk they encounter(ed) are bit-players and don't have the same rights, privileges, qualities or shared destiny.
- faust201 10mo agoNice. IP is one thing that has ruined many things. Unless you are WIPO and Oracle Fan. All current AI companies are closed. What benefit? Most things from Uni are published openly. BTW, did people in US pay royalty to China for inventing paper?
- mikestorrent 10mo agoYeah, people forget that IP is a social construct, and there's no reason a different society can't simply have different constructs. Open source / Free software is a different social construct too; and Stallman would have us live in a world where nobody is enriching themselves with proprietary technology they exert unfair control over. Problem has always been ensuring that people who have brilliant ideas get appropriately rewarded for their contribution to humanity - but not disproportionately.
- joquarky 10mo ago> ensuring that people who have brilliant ideas get appropriately rewarded This doesn't happen anymore, and the sooner the contributors to our industry learn this, the sooner we can start fixing it.
- LunaSea 10mo agoWhen was paper invented again? Also does China publish it's companies IP publicly or is it just a one-sided relationship?
- throw-the-towel 10mo agoTaking your China comment in good faith: the copyright term on paper has long elapsed anyway, even if there's Mickey Mouse drawn on the paper in question.
- 8note 10mo agoWhat would china consider to be the appropriate length of compensation though? the claim is that chinese people in china must follow US law. presumably US people in US should also follow chinese law.
- piva00 10mo agoJapan did the same in the 70s/80s while growing their homegrown tech companies, over time it seems they've been forgiven. In the end we all benefitted with better products from Sony, Panasonic, Canon, Nikon, and many others.
- spixy 10mo agoIP and copyrights slow progress, their expiration should be greatly limited
- therealpygon 10mo agoI very much agree. Technology moves far too fast in this century for companies, who will only need to invest less as AI improves, to have a monopoly over things that would inevitably (or were already) also being developed. It made sense when you invested 20 years into the research for a thing, back when that was necessary due to the slower pace. People had to travel places more often, spent more time doing so, communications took longer, and generally everything took significantly more time. Those policies served companies well in the last century. These days a grad student tested something on a weekend, a professor viewed the results in the morning and a reaction is already in progress. It simply isn’t reasonable anymore; they should have a right to recoup a reasonable costs, of course, paying off their investment. When that investment becomes a company worth more than at least 50% of the others, maybe they should need to compete more, not less? Make them innovate to maintain customers rather than simply sit on their patents. Just an opinion, but I believe that internal competition will only help us innovate.
- croes 10mo agoGermany did the something similar at the beginning of the 20th century
- deleted 10mo ago[deleted]
- bparsons 10mo agoAsk every American AI company what they think of IP protections. Apparently all intellectual property is fair game now.
- joquarky 10mo agoIP was useful in its time, but it is obsolete in this age.
- mindslight 10mo agoThe Chinese can just request IPs from APNIC too, you know. Or are you referencing the shenanigans with AFRNIC? That still isn't stealing them from companies and universities though. Is there some ongoing mass BGP route hijacking I'm not aware of?
- glemion43 10mo agoHow many resources did the European and American steal from others? How many humans were stolen by USA alone? Does it make it better? No. But that's it. Everything is shit but while USA got rich through manufacturing in the past, now it's China turn
- lnxg33k1 10mo agohttps://www.straitstimes.com/asia/america-once-stole-ideas-from-others-when-it-was-developing-nobel-economics-laureate https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/america-once-stole-ideas-f...
- treyd 10mo agoIntellectual property as it exists and is used today overwhelmingly is used to stifle competition and lock down monopolies. It's used to project power internationally by deputizing foreign countries to protect American business interests. It's a far cry from how it's popularly presented as a way for the "little guy" to protect their inventions.
- stogot 10mo agoI see you’ve never invented anything that you’ve risked having stolen
- ta20240528 10mo agoFine, I’ll bite. What exactly did China steal in 2025, who did they steal it from, which authorities did the victims approach in China for redress, where did they report failing to get redress? You would have to know all the above for it to be real.
- delta_p_delta_x 10mo ago> How many IPs have they stolen Oh no, the poor trillion-dollar multinationals and multi-billionaires, whatever would they do?
- quickthrowman 10mo agoProbably around the same amount of IP that US citizens stole from the UK in the 19th century. We stole loads of inventions during the Industrial Revolution. Does it surprise you to find out that a lot of old money families in the US made their money smuggling opium and other similarly unethical things? We are a nation of crooks and thieves and always have been. I ask anyone reading this comment to please study history more frequently, it will help you understand the world better.
- yongjik 10mo agoWell, I mean, the US is straight up demanding money from its allies (in the form of an "investment agreement" exclusively controlled by the Trump government), and threatening them with economic doom if they don't comply. Stealing IPs from universities almost look quirky in comparison.
- throw0101d 10mo ago> Lawfully? How many IPs have they stolen from universities and companies across the world? Probably about the same as the US when it was a developing nation. "How the United States Stopped Being a Pirate Nation and Learned to Love International Copyright": > From the time of the first federal copyright law in 1790 until enactment of the International Copyright Act in 1891, U.S. copyright law did not apply to works by authors who were not citizens or residents of the United States. U.S. publishers took advantage of this lacuna in the law, and the demand among American readers for books by popular British authors, by reprinting the books of these authors without their authorization and without paying a negotiated royalty to them. * https://digitalcommons.pace.edu/plr/vol39/iss1/7/ https://digitalcommons.pace.edu/plr/vol39/iss1/7/
- wetpaws 10mo ago[dead]
- Aloisius 10mo agoPatents (what protects inventions) have nothing to do with copyright.
- shagie 10mo agoI think the suggestion is more around people like Lowell - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Cabot_Lowell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Cabot_Lowell > Despite political independence, the United States remained dependent on imports for manufactured goods. The conflicts between the European Powers and the Embargo of 1807 severely disrupted trade between the United States, Great Britain, France and Asia. Lowell reached the conclusion that to be truly independent, the United States needed to manufacture goods at home. In June 1810, he went on a two-year visit with his family to Britain. ... Lowell developed an interest in the textile industries of Lancashire and Scotland, especially the spinning and weaving machines, which were operated by water power or steam power. He was not able to buy drawings or a model of a power loom. He secretly studied the machines. In Edinburgh he met fellow American Nathan Appleton who would later become a partner in the Lowell mills. As the War of 1812 began, Lowell and his family left Europe and on their way home, the boat and all their personal belongings were searched at the Halifax port to ensure that no contraband was being smuggled out of Great Britain. Lowell had memorized all the workings of British power looms without writing anything down. Or Samuel Slater - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Slater https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Slater > Samuel Slater (June 9, 1768 – April 21, 1835) was an early English-American industrialist known as the "Father of the American Industrial Revolution", a phrase coined by Andrew Jackson, and the "Father of the American Factory System". In the United Kingdom, he was called "Slater the Traitor" and "Sam the Slate" because he brought British textile technology to the United States, modifying it for American use. He memorized the textile factory machinery designs as an apprentice to a pioneer in the British industry before migrating to the U.S. at the age of 21. --- Industrial espionage and acts that would be considered patent infringement in today's timeframe were key parts of the early independence for the United States.
- Qem 10mo ago> How many IPs have they stolen from universities and companies across the world? As it's often said, "There is no honor among thieves": https://www.nber.org/digest/mar18/confiscation-german-copyrights-boosted-us-math-and-science?page=1&perPage=50 https://www.nber.org/digest/mar18/confiscation-german-copyri...
- mfuzzey 10mo ago"stolen" should not be used in conjunction with IP, "infringed" if you like. To steal is to deny the original owner access to their property. That is true for physical objects, if I steal your wallet or your car you no longer have it. But if I illegally copy some of your IP you still have access to it. Sure you may experience some financial prejudice from that but you still have it.
- joquarky 10mo agoAgree. The fact that IP is unnatural and relatively new is probably the reason why so many people can't seem to apply the proper terminology around it.
- joquarky 10mo agoIP is unnatural and cannot be "stolen". And thanks to genAI, it will soon be obsolete.
- _DeadFred_ 10mo agoHow did the USA end up with the UKs jet engine/radar/other tech? Oh yeah, it was the only way to get the USA's support for the UK during WW2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizard_Mission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizard_Mission
- danny_codes 10mo agoEh, patents are a silly idea to start with. Can’t expect everyone in the world to get onboard with stupid ideas like that
- frankzinger 10mo agoYou may have a good point but this shows how badly America's reputation has been damaged: it's now viewed as much worse than China.
- protocolture 10mo agoWasnt hollywood set up simply as a safe space to flog camera patents?
- asdff 10mo agoThe US? No, Trump.
- mynegation 10mo agoThat’s the point. Unless the system of checks and balances starts working again, there is no practical difference.
- teemur 10mo agoYep. I don't know if anyone is interested in anecdotes, but looking from Europe, I will do my best to avoid any kind of US dependency until US has a) overhauled the legal system starting from the Supreme Court and b) gotten rid of the de facto two-party system. (No, one-party system does not count.)
- mindslight 10mo agoIs that the extent of your requirements (for now, at least) ? As an American I keep trying to surmise what we're going to need to do to start repairing the damage from this massive self-own. It's kind of hard because we don't know where the bottom will be, but we at least need to start having these discussions on what constructive approaches might even look like - we can't have our milquetoast opposition party phoning it in yet again with entitlement as the less-bad option. External context is key - one of the main goals of this hybrid warfare attack on the western world has been to disrupt our relationships with our allies, and also because other countries have developed Democracies that function way better than ours. So please know that at least some of us are listening.
- rjrjrjrj 10mo agoElectoral college, rampant gerrymandering, and 2 senators/state all big structural problems. Term and/or age maximums might also help.
- teemur 10mo ago> Is that the extent of your requirements (for now, at least) ? Well, if you ask my other wishes, once Europe has gotten its act straight and decides to tax/tariff/regulate/whatever (american) big tech to hell and back, I kind of would expect that any decent person on that side of the pond would just humbly nod their head and note that, yes, we/they deserved it.
- ActorNightly 10mo ago>The US has turned into something much more vindictive and unpredictable, including threatening to invade Canada. The thing about China is that they are basically hard on the up slope of their advancement as a society/economy/nation, just like US was post ww2. US on the other hand, has flatlined to the point where we think stuff like trans athletes in sports are a drastic enough reason to elect a president who is a convicted Felon. China is def gonna outpace US in the next 10 years as the strongest economy, but the interesting thing is gonna be is if they are gonna fall in the same trap as US does in 20 or 30 years.
- kolbe 10mo agoThe US definitely peaked a long time ago, and we're in the slow demise phase of its empire, but I think China has already peaked as well. They have the same obesity and consumerism crises that have plagued the US. Add to that a demographic implosion, and I think the best they can do is hope for 20 more years.
- deleted 10mo ago[deleted]
- maxglute 10mo agoNext 20 years is when PRC will really start cooking. In that period, PRC going to be doubling/tripling skilled workforce more than they have now (currently slightly above parity with US), this is already baked in from past 20 years of birth and current tertiary trends. That workforce, the greatest high skill demographic dividend in recorded history, will hang around for another 40+ years. They will have 40-60 years of operating with as much high end talent as OECD combined within a coordinated system. Past 2080, unless they sort out TFR, things could go bad, but for relevant timeframes, i.e. most of our lifetimes, they're going to be peaking.
- shagie 10mo ago> Next 20 years is when PRC will really start cooking. In that period, PRC going to be doubling/tripling skilled workforce more than they have now The population pyramid for 2045 for China is not favorable ( https://www.populationpyramid.net/china/2045/ https://www.populationpyramid.net/china/2045/ ). Currently the 30-39 bracket is 121 million, but by 2045 it will be about 83 million. You could be arguing that the percent of skilled labor workforce in there will be going up over the next 20 years - but the size of the bracket is drastically decreasing while it becomes more and more weighted to the 65-85 age bracket.
- red-iron-pine 10mo agolawful in the sense they value stability. their stability.
- TheScaryOne 10mo ago[flagged]
- quentindanjou 10mo agoThe actual reason was lobbying from US companies that were completely losing the competition because of the much lower price for the same or higher quality. But of course, we can try to come up with stories that don't hurt the patriotism ego.
- sieabahlpark 10mo ago[dead]
- pjc50 10mo agoYou know who else was shipping firearms illegally to countries in North America? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal (Obama administration, although not personally his fault) We could also discuss the provision of Armalite rifles to terrorist groups in the UK, Iran-Contra (an early accountability failure paving the way for pardon abuse), and so on.
- ETH_start 10mo agoThe Chinese government’s territorial claims in the South China Sea show near-total disregard for international law. China has constructed heavily militarized artificial islands roughly 200 kilometers from the Philippine coast — and more than 1,000 kilometers from the Chinese mainland — in order to assert control over waters that, under the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea and a binding 2016 ruling by an international arbitral tribunal, lie squarely within the Philippines’ exclusive economic zone. China lost the case on the merits and simply rejected the ruling.
- m463 10mo agohad to look it up: Hobbesian self-interest refers to the idea that human actions are primarily motivated by the desire for personal gain or advantage. This concept is central to Thomas Hobbes' political philosophy, where he argues that without a strong governing authority, individuals would act solely out of self-interest, leading to a chaotic and violent state of nature.
- tarsinge 10mo agoTo me there is an even more important point than economics and geopolitics: the Chinese government is thinking about the long term sustainability of its population, and given how large it is it makes quite aligned with the rest of the world. Environment, health, education, science, etc. when comparing the trajectory and future plans of China and the US it is quite telling. Here are a few excerpts, guess if they come from Project 2025 or Xi Jinping 14 commitments: - Adopting new science-based ideas for "innovative, coordinated, green, open and shared development". - Improving people's livelihood and well-being is the primary goal of development - Coexisting well with nature with "energy conservation and environmental protection" policies and "contribute to global ecological safety".