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I disagree that EV-s are held back by misconceptions. More their price and range.
by mdavid626 9mo ago
I disagree that EV-s are held back by misconceptions. More their price and range.
- ceejayoz 9mo agoThanks for illustrating the point.
- loeg 9mo agoThey have worse prices (higher) and worse range (lower, particularly for towing). These aren't misconceptions. (My only car is an EV that I'm happy with. But lying about EVs doesn't benefit advocates.)
- fullstop 9mo agoObviously this is slanted by tax credits, but the EV that I have shares a name with the existing gas model and was less expensive. EVs aren't for everything, but mine fits my use case perfectly.
- ceejayoz 9mo ago> They have worse prices (higher) Does this factor in cost of ownership? Gas, oil changes, less complexity? > worse range (lower, particularly for towing) Towing reduces a gas powered car’s range, too.
- mdavid626 9mo ago(Towing) You can fill it up in 5 min. Not true for EV.
- ceejayoz 9mo agoPop in for a pee and a snack. In the 15-20 mins that takes, you'll have a good amount of charge. Towing is also a bit of an edge case. https://www.thedrive.com/news/26907/you-dont-need-a-full-size-pickup-truck-you-need-a-cowboy-costume https://www.thedrive.com/news/26907/you-dont-need-a-full-siz... > According to Edwards’ data, 75 percent of truck owners use their truck for towing one time a year or less (meaning, never). Nearly 70 percent of truck owners go off-road one time a year or less. And a full 35 percent of truck owners use their truck for hauling—putting something in the bed, its ostensible raison d’être—once a year or less.
- rootusrootus 9mo agoHell, ain't true for any gas pickup I've owned, either. Big tanks, and often temperamental bastards that have to be babysat and won't take fuel at full pump speed in any case. Most road trip stops, according to the AAA, are 15 minutes anyway. Only on the Internet does everyone take 5 minutes to refuel.
- loeg 9mo ago~60 kWh still takes 18 minutes to charge at 200kW, and 200kW is a relatively optimistic average charge speed for most EVs at this time. Bigger batteries, or slower charge rates, take longer.
- rootusrootus 9mo ago
- WorldMaker 9mo agoThey have artificially worse prices in the US where EVs are mostly only getting sold as "luxury" vehicles and competition is hobbled by dealer networks and dealer laws and import tariffs. Most other parts of the world EVs are starting to be cheaper than the equivalent ICE in the same category. Range often doesn't need to get better, the impression of range needs to change. That's where a lot of misconceptions play into effect, over-focusing on things like gas-station-like charging stations over at-home charging. Over-focusing on "zero to full tank/battery statistics" when no one keeps a gas vehicle with a full tank overnight every night. Over-focusing on high speed charging and ignoring boring but useful "Level 1" charging, which is "just about everywhere" because our society has been building electrical outlets for a long time. Sure, the experience changes in things like long distance trips, but experience changes aren't "worse" by default of being a change.
- phainopepla2 9mo agoI still have to pay the price whether it's artificial or not
- MostlyStable 9mo agoI can do a ten hour road trip with a family of four plus a dog in a used (2022) EV that I got for ~30k last year. I think the idea that price and range are problems is exactly the misconception that op was taking about. They are somewhat more expensive, although when I originally did the calculus, fuel savings made up the difference in monthly payments for a new vehicle, but that's going to vary a lot. The is a very small proportion of people for whom range is a legitimate concern.
- alistairSH 9mo agoNow do the range/time/stops calculation with a travel trailer. Yes, if we're talking about normal family travel, an EV works fine for many trips (though there are still charging "dead spots" in parts of the country - looking at you WV). But, "truck stuff" like towing, they aren't there yet. Maybe in a few years when we get the next generation of battery and charger tech.
- Workaccount2 9mo agoIn truth you cannot really do this because range is a function of drag, not really weight. So if you are towing a 2000lb empty box mobile home it's gonna be worse than towing an 8000lb flat bed of decorative boulders.
- alistairSH 9mo agoYep. It takes a massive battery (and massive "normal" range) to pull off towing any distance. Unless I'm wrong, only the Chevy Silverado EV has the range (480ish) to make a reasonable tow vehicle, but only with the big battery, which pushes the price north of $90k.
- mmmlinux 9mo agoAgingWheels on youtube did a video testing exactly this.
- IncreasePosts 9mo agoI actually enjoy doing road trips in my tesla more so than in ICEs, because of the forced breaks. With ICEs, stops would be either for food or for bathroom breaks. A lot of times just eating in the car while driving. But for a 10 hour drive I am forced to take 4 20 minute stops - so once every 2 hours. This ends up making me feel a lot better at the end of the trip and also gives you "guilt free" time to enjoy a random park you've never been to, or sit down and have a meal. So, lets say 80 minutes of added time for a 10 hour trip, vs maybe 40 minutes that I would have added in my gas guzzler. 40 minutes extra on a 10 hour trip just isn't that big of a deal to me and especially so considering all the benefits from walking around for a bit or seeing some new places. Obviously you could do that same thing in an ICE car, but I feel the pressure to keep moving so it hits different.
- nikcub 9mo agoResale value is starting to ward some people off. You can buy 1-2 year old used Teslas and BYD's in Australia for ~30% below retail. Meanwhile Toyota hybrids not just retain their value but there have been moments where used RAV4's are listed above retail because the waitlist for new was so long.
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- legobmw99 9mo agoThe poor resale market for EVs just means that people who actually have some understanding of the battery lifespans can get very good deals on 1-2 year old cars
- rootusrootus 9mo agoTesla is a special case because they manipulate their pricing on a monthly, sometimes daily basis, and in the past they've changed the price quite significantly. In the US, the tax credits also really screw with the market dynamics. Lots of people think the car depreciates really quickly because they don't realize the original buyer didn't pay MSRP. I paid $20K under MSRP for my Lightning and in the just over a year I've owned it, the value has dropped about 7-8K. Pretty normal for the first year of a new vehicle.
- simondotau 9mo agoMost other car prices are "manipulated" on a minute-by-minute basis, insofar as pricing is different for each customer, based on their their willingness to go hard in negotiation, manufacturer incentives, demand levels, stock levels, finance packages, and the current mood of the dealership principal. The difference with Tesla is that their current "best price" is published out in the open.
- _ea1k 9mo agoExactly, price is a huge problem. IIRC, the average selling price of F-150 is ~50k. The extended range Lightning tended to be $60k and up. Sure, it had AWD, but lots of people didn't need that. The Cybertruck is even more expensive. Both had huge preorders when they were announced at ~50k.
- rootusrootus 9mo agoMy 2024 Lightning Flash was just under 51K, FWIW. Extended range, plenty of toys, definitely not the base model. I admit I was also under the impression they were expensive, and I was shopping for a Powerboost F150 first, until someone told me that MSRP was a lie.
- Workaccount2 9mo agoRange is the misconception, because people view range through the "sit and fill up then drive till empty" paradigm. That is not how EVs work or how they should be used. They should be charged overnight/when you are doing something else, and on road trips should be charged to align with other stops even if those stops are 10 minutes. It's rare that I have ever done the "sit in the car for 40 minutes waiting for charge", and extremely common to do the "Put car on charger for 13 minutes while going into [insert any of the gazillion places with chargers in the parking lot] to use the bathroom, stretch legs, and get a snack, or see a landmark" Also you usually structure it so you arrive at your destination with very low charge, because you fill up while there. I've yet to be at a hotel with a gas pump in the lot. Again, EVs function differently than gas, and that change of paradigm really gets people ruffled up and confused.
- mdavid626 9mo agoThat’s exactly the problem. I’d be happy to use an EV daily, as I drive short distances. But when I drive longer, then I don’t want to waste hours on charging. The other day I drove 700km in just about 5.5 hours (German Autobahn). Few stops to pee. With EV that would be few hours more (!). If this doesn’t bother you, then it’s fine. It matters to me though. Sometimes I also drive early in the morning 600km, and in the afternoon back, so I’m home until 22:00. With EV, that’s just impossible.
- plorkyeran 9mo agoAs long as there's a fast charging station somewhere along the route you'd need more like 30 minutes to charge midway through, not multiple hours. You also surely recognize that your driving patterns are very atypical and a car not working for them says very little about how suitable the car is for the market as a whole.
- mdavid626 9mo agoAssuming car can charge that fast. This is why I said “price and range”. Renault 5 EV charges with 11kW.
- Workaccount2 9mo agoA 600 mile trip can (theoretically) be done with 1 charge, because you leave home with full range, and arrive with 0 charge (and fill up overnight). That one charge is done while eating dinner, or spaced out in increments over the course of the trip, stops which you would take anyway. I know few people who want to bang out 10 hours without stopping for at least 1-2 hours over the course of the trip. And those who do, can be the edge case with gas cars. So you need to go 600 miles, and you need 1 full charge worth of energy during that. If that one charge takes 1 hour, you can also break it up into four 15 minute sessions at any time of your chosing. I'm sorry, but almost no regular person does 10 hours without at least four 15 minute stops. Range is not at all the problem people make it out to be.
- mdavid626 9mo agoWhich EV can go 600 miles with one charge, or with so little charging? How much does that car cost? Are you assuming, that every charger on the way is 200kW?
- Kirby64 9mo agoLucid Grand Touring can do it in one charge (that lasts ~45 minutes). Expensive, but it could do it. I did Shreveport, LA to Pesos, TX as an example. If you're OK with 2 charging stops, an Ioniq 6 or a Tesla Model 3 will work just fine. Also, charging speed is irrelevant to how many stops you need. Most chargers are >150kW these days, though. If you truly want to minimize charging stops, you'd be better served charging 3+ times for shorter periods of time, though.
- selimthegrim 9mo agoPecos?
- Kirby64 9mo agoI picked Shreveport, LA as a starting location and went west towards El Paso until I found a city that was slightly over 600 miles of distance. The cities are mostly irrelevant unless you pick something that is exceptionally hilly such as routes through mountain ranges or something.
- rootusrootus 9mo agoDepends a lot on the particular example. My Lightning was less expensive than the Powerboost I had been shopping for originally. And 250-300 miles is well beyond my typical daily driving range requirement (and Superchargers are pretty plentiful in most of the areas I ever find myself).