4 ms·

If it means anything, the first thought I had reading this post was "I wonder how SparkFun is exaggerating or misrepresenting this situation, because I can't be

by 827a 9mo ago

If it means anything, the first thought I had reading this post was "I wonder how SparkFun is exaggerating or misrepresenting this situation, because I can't believe Adafruit of all organizations is in the wrong here."

Dangeranger 9mo ago
See additional context for the accusation(s) here[0]. [0] https://forum.pjrc.com/index.php?threads/open-source-teensy-compatible-what-features-do-you-want.77584/page-2#post-364465 https://forum.pjrc.com/index.php?threads/open-source-teensy-...
- sergiotapia 9mo ago
  still vague as hell lol
  - oytis 9mo ago
    I need to see the photoshops!
- no-dr-onboard 9mo ago
  > sparkfun chose to publish a vague public accusation. once you do that, speculation is inevitable. Ok sure, but the explanation provided strikes me as equally vague. I don't think anyone who isn't familiar with this situation has any idea what the hell is going on between these two orgs tbh. If a dispassionate observer can't figure out situation without significant effort, then it's very easy to handwave this away as unimportant. Personally I'd very much hate for that to happen here if something truly noteworthy happened.
  - butlike 9mo ago
    The problem is once you get into concrete specifics, you enter the realm of legal liability and potential libel, so it's all posturing until their adrenaline runs out, then they'll either reconcile (or not) behind closed doors.
    - no-dr-onboard 9mo ago
      You know, I think you're right. I recant what I said earlier. I actually don't think I should care about this matter at all. In a more general sense, it seems best to me that people should just mind their own business and settle things like adults without giving into this pervasive and strange desire to be vindicated by their framing of the situation to others. There is literally no benefit to anyone but the storyteller. They are either seen as more or less virtuous by their framing of the situation. They have an interest in telling you a story that makes them look good and a greater interest in downplaying their guilt in the matter. At the end of the day it means very little to most observers. Pair that with the absolute disincentive to provide actual specifics, the whole thing is moot to an honest person.
- wrigby 9mo ago
  The fact that the Adafruit team continued that thread unabashedly after Paul Stoffregen's first reply is an awful look in my opinion. Doesn't seem like anyone here is behaving like adults. Edit: I should clarify - Paul seems very much like a mature adult in all of this.
  - Gracana 9mo ago
    Wow, and it gets worse from there. I think Paul is smart to let Phil drag him on his own forum rather than let him go blow up on social media for getting banned.
- Alupis 9mo ago
  My take away from this link is not what Adafruit probably wants. > we told sparkfun they needed to get their house in order > that was the big issue i wanted them to get some hr training on, or _something_ You don't tell or demand another company do something with their own employees. There's more professional ways of dealing with a situation like this. Request a meeting. Send a calm, collected, professional email to a decision-maker and be sure it's well sourced and factual. Keep things in private. If the other party decides not to take action, then make a decision if you want to continue doing business with them. Do not keep pressuring them for the outcome you want, do not escalate the situation, and certainly don't drag the dirty laundry out into the public. Like, what good did Adafruit actually think was going to come from getting into a fight with the founder of Sparkfun? 50 lashings with a wet noodle? Whatever Sparkfun allegedly did to cause this, Adafruit looks pretty poor in this light. I've been a long time customer of both Adafruit and Sparkfun, and will continue to be - but this is some rookie, amateur, hot-headed behavior from Adafruit.
  - ptorrone 9mo ago
    after a decade of dealing with the founder's bullying, i had enough, looking back almost every year there was something. we did handle things privately until it was clear nothing was going to change, the only real change is we cannot buy teensy, a closed source board sparkfun exclusively makes now, maybe they (sparkfun) will stop paying the payments on something that had to agreed to, and have, we'll see.
    - Alupis 9mo ago
      I understand you're pretty upset with the situation, and I can't blame you. But I never should be reading about any of this on public forums. It doesn't reflect well on you or Adafruit. Now an outcome has been chosen for you, without your input. The situation is probably irreconcilable. That's not the position you ever want to be in. Obviously. If the situation was untenable, after your reasonable and private attempts, you should have decided to sever ties on your terms. The outcome would have been the same, but you'd be in control of the situation, and wouldn't be permanently leaving things in public view. I'm sorry for the situation. I'm a real hot head at times, but it's something I've learned (the hard way, over and over again) that I need to control. Business is business... I hope it works out for you and Adafruit.
micromacrofoot 9mo ago
Yeah just to add to this pile, I've always found Adafruit to be one of the most reasonable companies in the space. I've been buying their products for a decade.
- ge96 9mo ago
  Reppin my free coaster and keeb board. Reminds me of Hitec who would send candy with their transmitters. Also all their docs man great for noobs like me starting out and libraries.
justsid 9mo ago
That was my first thought as well, especially given the accusation of code of conduct violation. Not that I think that Adafruit is perfect no matter what, but I would have been shocked if this turned out to be true as stated.
tedivm 9mo ago
My first thought was the same. I used to like Sparkfun but then they closed the source of some of their projects (while often "forgetting" to update their website to reflect that). I was concerned when I saw the headline but just assumed that Sparkfun was probably in the wrong even before I saw the comments.
milesvp 9mo ago
Same. I was afraid that there was some bad egg that managed to get into Adafruit, or maybe someone was having a real bad day. You never know what kind of person someone is off camera, but Adafruit as a company has always managed to give off the most wholesome vibes. I'll be interested to see how this unfolds. I have little skin in the game being mostly upstream of the supply chain, but I've had reason to purchase from both companies, and hope this doesn't blow up into a huge thing.
Aurornis 9mo ago
> because I can't believe Adafruit of all organizations is in the wrong here. I've been hearing about this drama through a group chat for a long time. To be honest, neither side looks good in this one. Both companies have behaved disappointingly at different times for different reasons. I'm not doing this is an arbitrary "both sides" dismissal. There have been actions from both companies that would have been unacceptable in isolation. The OSHW world revolves a lot around conferences, social media, and IRC/Matrix/Discord servers. Not coincidentally, this feels a lot like old IRC and forum drama of years past.
- markus_zhang 9mo ago
  Thanks for the message. Which IRC channel should I join?
- nospice 9mo ago
  Both companies are pretty small and presumably exist because their owners are passionate about hobby electronics. Honestly, I'd rather have companies like that ran by (flawed) humans than by PR robots. If they want to air their dirty laundry in public, I'm happy to grab popcorn and watch. I'm honestly shocked by the number of folks on this thread who don't know the specifics, and most probably never even bought anything from Sparkfun or Adafruit, but still want to condemn one of the companies in the strongest possible terms...
- pseudohadamard 9mo ago
  >To be honest, neither side looks good in this one. Both companies have behaved disappointingly at different times for different reasons. ESH?
- DetroitThrow 9mo ago
  It would be nice if people came out and explained exactly what the harassment, COC violations, etc were so we could make accurate judgements ourselves about all of this. And no, posting literally what happened or what was sent or said will not get you in trouble for libel unless you don't have proof of it happening. This dancing around what was actually said or sent all reminds me of that meme, Dipshit289: dude you don't wanna know... Oh the horror... Fwiw, there's this thread that seemingly explains what employee was doing the harassment - and shows Phil overreacting and exaggerating the 'harassment' itself, as well as misattributing blame: https://chaos.social/@North/115605819126197877 https://chaos.social/@North/115605819126197877 That makes me think much less of both Adafruit and SparkFun. I really, really wish all sides would simply put everything out for us to evaluate. Having to trust various unreliable narrators is not respectful to the time of all of us potential customers.

by 827a 9mo ago

Dangeranger 9mo ago

See additional context for the accusation(s) here[0]. [0] https://forum.pjrc.com/index.php?threads/open-source-teensy-compatible-what-features-do-you-want.77584/page-2#post-364465 https://forum.pjrc.com/index.php?threads/open-source-teensy-...

sergiotapia 9mo ago
still vague as hell lol
- oytis 9mo ago
  I need to see the photoshops!
no-dr-onboard 9mo ago
> sparkfun chose to publish a vague public accusation. once you do that, speculation is inevitable. Ok sure, but the explanation provided strikes me as equally vague. I don't think anyone who isn't familiar with this situation has any idea what the hell is going on between these two orgs tbh. If a dispassionate observer can't figure out situation without significant effort, then it's very easy to handwave this away as unimportant. Personally I'd very much hate for that to happen here if something truly noteworthy happened.
- butlike 9mo ago
  The problem is once you get into concrete specifics, you enter the realm of legal liability and potential libel, so it's all posturing until their adrenaline runs out, then they'll either reconcile (or not) behind closed doors.
  - no-dr-onboard 9mo ago
    You know, I think you're right. I recant what I said earlier. I actually don't think I should care about this matter at all. In a more general sense, it seems best to me that people should just mind their own business and settle things like adults without giving into this pervasive and strange desire to be vindicated by their framing of the situation to others. There is literally no benefit to anyone but the storyteller. They are either seen as more or less virtuous by their framing of the situation. They have an interest in telling you a story that makes them look good and a greater interest in downplaying their guilt in the matter. At the end of the day it means very little to most observers. Pair that with the absolute disincentive to provide actual specifics, the whole thing is moot to an honest person.
wrigby 9mo ago
The fact that the Adafruit team continued that thread unabashedly after Paul Stoffregen's first reply is an awful look in my opinion. Doesn't seem like anyone here is behaving like adults. Edit: I should clarify - Paul seems very much like a mature adult in all of this.
- Gracana 9mo ago
  Wow, and it gets worse from there. I think Paul is smart to let Phil drag him on his own forum rather than let him go blow up on social media for getting banned.
Alupis 9mo ago
My take away from this link is not what Adafruit probably wants. > we told sparkfun they needed to get their house in order > that was the big issue i wanted them to get some hr training on, or _something_ You don't tell or demand another company do something with their own employees. There's more professional ways of dealing with a situation like this. Request a meeting. Send a calm, collected, professional email to a decision-maker and be sure it's well sourced and factual. Keep things in private. If the other party decides not to take action, then make a decision if you want to continue doing business with them. Do not keep pressuring them for the outcome you want, do not escalate the situation, and certainly don't drag the dirty laundry out into the public. Like, what good did Adafruit actually think was going to come from getting into a fight with the founder of Sparkfun? 50 lashings with a wet noodle? Whatever Sparkfun allegedly did to cause this, Adafruit looks pretty poor in this light. I've been a long time customer of both Adafruit and Sparkfun, and will continue to be - but this is some rookie, amateur, hot-headed behavior from Adafruit.
- ptorrone 9mo ago
  after a decade of dealing with the founder's bullying, i had enough, looking back almost every year there was something. we did handle things privately until it was clear nothing was going to change, the only real change is we cannot buy teensy, a closed source board sparkfun exclusively makes now, maybe they (sparkfun) will stop paying the payments on something that had to agreed to, and have, we'll see.
  - Alupis 9mo ago
    I understand you're pretty upset with the situation, and I can't blame you. But I never should be reading about any of this on public forums. It doesn't reflect well on you or Adafruit. Now an outcome has been chosen for you, without your input. The situation is probably irreconcilable. That's not the position you ever want to be in. Obviously. If the situation was untenable, after your reasonable and private attempts, you should have decided to sever ties on your terms. The outcome would have been the same, but you'd be in control of the situation, and wouldn't be permanently leaving things in public view. I'm sorry for the situation. I'm a real hot head at times, but it's something I've learned (the hard way, over and over again) that I need to control. Business is business... I hope it works out for you and Adafruit.

micromacrofoot 9mo ago

Yeah just to add to this pile, I've always found Adafruit to be one of the most reasonable companies in the space. I've been buying their products for a decade.

ge96 9mo ago
Reppin my free coaster and keeb board. Reminds me of Hitec who would send candy with their transmitters. Also all their docs man great for noobs like me starting out and libraries.

justsid 9mo ago

That was my first thought as well, especially given the accusation of code of conduct violation. Not that I think that Adafruit is perfect no matter what, but I would have been shocked if this turned out to be true as stated.

tedivm 9mo ago

My first thought was the same. I used to like Sparkfun but then they closed the source of some of their projects (while often "forgetting" to update their website to reflect that). I was concerned when I saw the headline but just assumed that Sparkfun was probably in the wrong even before I saw the comments.

milesvp 9mo ago

Same. I was afraid that there was some bad egg that managed to get into Adafruit, or maybe someone was having a real bad day. You never know what kind of person someone is off camera, but Adafruit as a company has always managed to give off the most wholesome vibes. I'll be interested to see how this unfolds. I have little skin in the game being mostly upstream of the supply chain, but I've had reason to purchase from both companies, and hope this doesn't blow up into a huge thing.

Aurornis 9mo ago

> because I can't believe Adafruit of all organizations is in the wrong here. I've been hearing about this drama through a group chat for a long time. To be honest, neither side looks good in this one. Both companies have behaved disappointingly at different times for different reasons. I'm not doing this is an arbitrary "both sides" dismissal. There have been actions from both companies that would have been unacceptable in isolation. The OSHW world revolves a lot around conferences, social media, and IRC/Matrix/Discord servers. Not coincidentally, this feels a lot like old IRC and forum drama of years past.

markus_zhang 9mo ago
Thanks for the message. Which IRC channel should I join?
nospice 9mo ago
Both companies are pretty small and presumably exist because their owners are passionate about hobby electronics. Honestly, I'd rather have companies like that ran by (flawed) humans than by PR robots. If they want to air their dirty laundry in public, I'm happy to grab popcorn and watch. I'm honestly shocked by the number of folks on this thread who don't know the specifics, and most probably never even bought anything from Sparkfun or Adafruit, but still want to condemn one of the companies in the strongest possible terms...
pseudohadamard 9mo ago
>To be honest, neither side looks good in this one. Both companies have behaved disappointingly at different times for different reasons. ESH?
DetroitThrow 9mo ago
It would be nice if people came out and explained exactly what the harassment, COC violations, etc were so we could make accurate judgements ourselves about all of this. And no, posting literally what happened or what was sent or said will not get you in trouble for libel unless you don't have proof of it happening. This dancing around what was actually said or sent all reminds me of that meme, Dipshit289: dude you don't wanna know... Oh the horror... Fwiw, there's this thread that seemingly explains what employee was doing the harassment - and shows Phil overreacting and exaggerating the 'harassment' itself, as well as misattributing blame: https://chaos.social/@North/115605819126197877 https://chaos.social/@North/115605819126197877 That makes me think much less of both Adafruit and SparkFun. I really, really wish all sides would simply put everything out for us to evaluate. Having to trust various unreliable narrators is not respectful to the time of all of us potential customers.