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Western governments do not want democracy in Iran. They want the son of Shah back in Iran, the Shah whose father tortured and exploited Iranians, and that led t
by submeta 9mo ago
Western governments do not want democracy in Iran. They want the son of Shah back in Iran, the Shah whose father tortured and exploited Iranians, and that led to the revolution and the rise of the mullahs. The US and Israel want regime change so Israel can dominate the ME. Just like they replaced Assad in Syria by Jolani, a wanted Al Qaeda terrorist who does not oppose Israel in any way but slaughter kurds and alavites because they are moderate muslims.
The revolts in Iran are backed by US/Israel. They openly brag about it on every channel. They don’t care about Iranian‘s freedoms. They are the same who support every dictator in the region if and only if that dictator accepts Israel‘s dominance.
Edit: Yeah, let’s downvote instead if arguing.
Edit 2: https://x.com/ggreenwald/status/2010798811288133695 https://x.com/ggreenwald/status/2010798811288133695
> Glenn Greenwald:
> Trump's former CIA Director and the largest newspapers of the Israeli media can state explicitly and clearly that the Mossad is all over the protests in Iran, and yet still people will deny it and say only a conspiracy theorist could believe such a crazy tale.
- rngfnby 9mo agoDude, HN debate has held up pretty well for something thats been around for twenty years. Criticism of Western liberalism is not one of them.
- submeta 9mo agoAnd you think my point was about Western liberalism? That’s what you call destabilising countries? All while massively supporting some of the most aggressive dictatorships like Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, UAE?
- breppp 9mo agoSurely saying that Jordan and the UAE are one of the most aggressive dictatorships in the context of discussing Iran is sarcasm I am missing
- gregbot 9mo agoLiberalism is (in the name of democracy) attacking every country that opposes Israel (Iran Syria Libya Iraq Venezuela) and remaining silent on every US backed dictatorship that doesnt lift a finger to support Palestine. (Egypt Saudi Arabia UAE Jordan Jolani/isis)
- nalekberov 9mo ago[flagged]
- OKRainbowKid 9mo agoWhy?
- bpt3 9mo agoWeird, I have seen literally nothing supporting these claims at all from a remotely reliable source. For example, it's interesting that the US would declare Jolani a terrorist if they were in support of his regime.
- zjzkshz 9mo agohttps://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna185076 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna185076 There was a large bounty on his head until recently because of his atrocities.
- zjzkshz 9mo agoI don’t get the downvotes either. Everything you’ve mentioned is pretty easily verifiable and not disputed.
- bpt3 9mo agoIt's being downvoted because it's mostly nonsense based on what I'm aware of. Please enlighten us with some of this easily verifiable information.
- submeta 9mo ago[flagged]
- bpt3 9mo ago"Western governments do not want democracy in Iran" is not the same statement as "Western policy toward Iran basically boils down to: we're fine with democracy, just not if it threatens US/Israeli regional dominance" and neither are supported by citations describing what happened in the 1950s.
- tomhow 9mo agoPlease don't post like this here. HN is not for political or ideological battle or grand assessments/proclamations about geopolitical history. We also don't want giant walls of copy+pasted material here. We're here to converse curiously and contribute our own original thoughts. Everyone who participates here needs to observe the guidelines. These ones in particular are relevant. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents. Omit internet tropes. Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- zjzkshz 9mo agoIf you google about Al Jolani you can see the terrorist orgs he worked for in the first paragraph of his Wikipedia page.
- neoromantique 9mo ago1) Cry me a river about bloody dictators being deposed, wah wah. 2) Nobody is asking to "accept Israel's dominance", but dropping the "Destruction of Israel" as one of the main goals of the state would be a quite welcome. The world does not revolve around Israel, and the less bloody dictators it has (theocratic or not) the better.
- submeta 9mo ago[flagged]
- neoromantique 9mo agoIf Israel were to be magically relocated to the moon or mars or 'the sea', region would resume the explosion of local wars, now that common enemy briefly uniting them is gone.
- everdrive 9mo agoAsk yourself why Jordan or Egypt are not tripping over themselves to accept Palestinian refugees.
- lbrito 9mo agoIf someone invades your neighbours' homes and kicks them out, you would be eager to collaborate and host them in your home indefinitely, yes?
- neoromantique 9mo agoor maybe it has something to do with past events (of when they did let them in the past)? Noo, can't be.
- everdrive 9mo agoNations aren't homes, and specifically the West Bank was previously part of Transjordan, while the Gaza Strip was previously part of Egypt.
- remarkEon 9mo agoThe US supported, albeit tacitly, the revolution that put the Ayatollahs in power in the first place.
- ebbi 9mo agoThe US also armed the predecessors to the Taliban during the Cold War. What is your point?
- tptacek 9mo agoBy which you mean we withdrew support from the Shah, not so much that we supported the Iranian Revolution itself.
- ofrzeta 9mo agoThe USA have backed the coup against the democratically elected prime minister Mossadegh, to begin with. "In 1953, the CIA- and MI6-backed 1953 Iranian coup d'état overthrew Iran’s democratically elected Prime Minister, Mohammad Mossadegh, who had nationalized the Anglo-Persian Oil Company." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Revolution
- tptacek 9mo agoSo the claim here is that by backing any coups and revolutions, the US tacitly backed all of them? Ok! Like: yes, I lay a lot of the responsibility for the nightmare state Iranians live in at the hands of Cold War NATO policymakers, for sure, but I don't think it's all that useful as a positive claim of what happened in the 1970s. The US did not support the Ayatollahs.
- ofrzeta 9mo ago> So the claim here is that by backing any coups and revolutions, the US tacitly backed all of them? Ok! I didn't say that. It's just that Iran already had a democratically elected government. However there is some truth to the claim that you put in my mouth, that is, you can see that pattern quite often in history. Chile is another example but let's focus on Iran.
- farseer 9mo agoYou are partially right, Israel does want to subdue the middle east and Iran stands in the way. However that does not absolve the current Iranian government of being a despicable entity, mostly hated by its own people. I hope the Iranian people choose democracy, limit the Ayatollahs to their holy city in Qom like the Vatican, tell that rascal Shah's son to go fornicate himself and of-course continue putting a necessary check on Israeli expansionism.
- ebbi 9mo agoAgree - but a lot of the sentiment I hear from my Iranian friends (and recent pro-regime protestors comments) is that they acknowledge they have issues, but they don't want a regime change at the hands of USA and Israel. I despise the Iranian regime, but knowing what happened in Iraq and Afghanistan, I find it quite troubling that people are quite giddy about this as though it's not going to result in many lives lost (many more than what the regime is currently responsible for), and destabilisation of the country. And given the USA's track record in regime changes, and the issues they have in their own country currently, I don't think the US - nor Israel - have any standing to be carrying out a regime change in another sovereign state.
- breppp 9mo agoExample wrong claims: 1. Jolani was propped up by Turkey not Israel, their relations are still tense. E.g. Jolani has been massacring the Druze which are Israel's allies, while Israel-Turkey relations are only getting worse. Unsure where so many get the idea Israel is excited about an ISIS veterans regime on its border that regularly massacres civilians including on-brand mass rapes, kidnappings, beheadings, cutting hearts out etc The US had previously imprisoned Jolani and had a 10 million reward on his head until 2024, so, that also doesn't align with your narrative 2. Western governments make sure not to meet the crown prince in a state setting or using high dignities, as to limit their support 3. The Shah government was terrible in some respects but still arguably superior to the current one, in any case hopefully Iranians can find their own new way once they get rid of their current fascist theocracy 4. There is no real evidence that the local revolts are supported by the US or Israel. It is naturally the regime propaganda stance as authoritarian regimes usually turn the blame outwards rather than face their failures (environmental disaster, raging inflation, sanctions, complete regional defeat, unwanted religious laws) 5. Not many dictators in the region historically "accepted Israel's dominance" so I don't think you have many supporting points for your sweeping statements
- joecool1029 9mo ago> Unsure where so many get the idea Israel is excited about an ISIS veterans regime on its border that regularly massacres civilians including on-brand mass rapes, kidnappings, beheadings, cutting hearts out etc Perhaps because they openly provided support to them for years: https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/report-israel-treating-al-qaida-fighters-wounded-in-syria-civil-war-393862 https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/report-israel-treating-al-...
- breppp 9mo agoThat has been a case of "the enemy of my enemy" as the Al Nusra Islamists had still considered Israel as infidels that need to be eventually be dealt with. Israel more pressing Islamist threat, Hezbollah, was the focus back then and therefore these organizations were given medical help in turn for agreeing not to kill Druze and to stay away from the Israeli border. It was quite evident Israel's position as it hasn't tried to fight for Al Nusra when Assad recaptured that area even though it could easily make the Syrian regime forces retreat. Also, the repeated bombing of the current syrian government forces are probably not due to some outbursting friendship
- vixen99 9mo agoI find it impossible to see how the broad assertions you have made could possibly be subject to resolution in any way by argument so it would be a waste of time. I suspect whatever counter arguments were produced you'd diss them. Downvoted!
- password54321 9mo agoIsrael does seem pretty excited about this and I doubt it is because they suddenly care about people they have killed themselves and a nation they have threatened to destroy.
- leptons 9mo ago>and a nation they have threatened to destroy Iran hasn't threatened to destroy, they have made it their stated mission to "annihilate" Israel. I doubt Israel would have any ill-will towards Iran if Iran didn't first say that about Israel.
- xenospn 9mo agoIsrael and Iran were BFFs right until the revolution and Israel has hundreds of thousands of Persian jews. I'm sure relations will be very quickly amended if the current regime falls.
- bulbar 9mo agoIt's weird how for some, everything that happens is somehow Israel's fault. This, for the most part, is self inflicted by the Iranian regime.
- tim333 9mo agoNah. They'd be happy with democracy there.