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> I wonder where you guys are headed. You need to know only two facts about America to guess that: * Fifty three percent of Americans now read below the sixth

> I wonder where you guys are headed. You need to know only two facts about America to guess that: * Fifty three percent of Americans now read below the sixth grade level. * As (ostensibly) a representative Democracy America's fate is dictated by the majority of it's citizens. Our future is to become a broken nation governed by middle-school student level thinking. The only way to build a better America is to build a better populace, and that would be contrary to the interests of the angry, spoiled, children who seem to hold all the power now.

datsci_est_2015 9mo ago
I think it’s also important to talk about what it means to “read at a 6th grade level” when this is mentioned, because a lot of people (myself included) might assume that just means they could finish and understand a book intended for 6th graders. But there’s actually meaningful criteria that sheds some light on the critical thinking capabilities of people who can or can’t read at certain levels, especially as it pertains to propaganda. Below a certain level, people are not well-educated enough to critically assess a text against the motivations of its authors (somewhere around 9th grade). Americans are prone to conspiratorial thinking so you might think that that’s alright because they’re often skeptical of any text, but it just seems like it causes them to dig even deeper into the propaganda that’s targeted to them. It’s kind of like learning that some people don’t have an inner monologue, or that they aren’t capable of imagining shapes or objects abstractly in their mind. Except it’s a lot more serious as it deals with critical thinking directly: these people don’t understand that what they’re reading was written for a purpose.
- paulryanrogers 9mo ago
  This isn't accidental. Religious indoctrination literally teaches generations to make special loopholes in critical thinking and healthy skepticism to maintain their faith. And it has paid off in easy to manipulate masses for centuries.
  - arrowleaf 9mo ago
    The more religious people I know are some of the best critical thinkers. Especially those types who enroll their kids in the 'classical' education model. With the decline of religion in the USA, I don't think this is a very coherent scapegoat.
    - paulryanrogers 9mo ago
      Religion isn't the only factor, nor did I claim it was. But it's the only one I've seen convince PhDs to believe self contradictory "scriptures", cherry picked "evidence", appeals to authority, parrot useless platitudes, indoctrinate their kids, dismiss injustices, other people even for the most trivial differences in doctrine, and consistently vote against their own interests.
Loudergood 9mo ago
In what language? 78% of Americans have English as their first language.
- Marsymars 9mo ago
  I don't think that's right - it looks like the stat is that 78% of Americans speak *only* English at home. I'm not American, but anecdotally, a supermajority (like 80-90%) of people I know who speak multiple languages at home speak English at native fluency. (e.g. in my semi-extended family - parents/siblings/nibblings/partner/parents-in-law, there are 9 of us, and only 2 are more comfortable in French than English, but none of us would qualify as speaking *only* English at home.)
- mlrtime 9mo ago
  Also, look into how the statistic is gathered vs other countries. There is no exact definition on this statistic and how to measure. There is also reporting biases. Single person vs household for example.
- mapontosevenths 9mo ago
  I don't care what language they read, just that they're capable of reading (and thinking) like adults.
shepherdjerred 9mo ago
Why is literacy so important? Wasn’t literacy lower in the US at other points in time?
- drpepper42 9mo ago
  The Lippmann school of democracy sort of predisposed that people were too stupid and that through journalists would emerge a reasonable set of choices. For the most part that matches the way politics worked in the USA and most democracies until recently. Unfortunately the internet disrupted things such that suddenly everyone needs to actually be democratically adept in at least some form more akin to the Dewey school of thought. The combination of literacy and the algorithmic propaganda machine is a pretty big stumbling block.
  - tyrust 9mo ago
    Interesting comment. I haven't heard this problem phrased this way nor have I heard of these schools, do you have a recommendation for learning more about this?
    - drpepper42 9mo ago
      Adapt! (Barbara Stiegler) She puts it all together relatively succinctly if dense. You can just read Dewey too if you want to be closer to the source. He's a bit more interesting because it is more of the road not taken out of the progressive era.
      - tyrust 9mo ago
        Cool, thanks for the rec!
    - throw0101d 9mo ago
      See perhaps: > At the turn of the 20th century, a crucial debate emerged between Walter Lippmann and John Dewey over the viability of democracy in an increasingly complex world. Lippmann critiqued democracy’s reliance on public opinion, arguing that citizens construct simplified “pseudo-environments” shaped by media and stereotypes, rendering them ill-equipped to make informed decisions on vast global issues. He warned that modern democracies are driven more by emotionally charged reactions than by accurate understanding, and that media, language, and time constraints further distort reality. Dewey responded not by dismissing Lippmann’s concerns, but by reframing democracy as more than a political system—it was, to him, an ethical ideal and a form of social cooperation. Viewing society as an interconnected organism, Dewey believed individuals flourish only through participation and education. He saw democracy as a continuous process of mutual growth, where every person contributes uniquely, and where the antidote to authoritarianism lies in cultivating thoughtful, empowered citizens—not in retreating from democratic ideals, but in deepening them. * https://www.philosophizethis.org/podcast/dewey-lippman https://www.philosophizethis.org/podcast/dewey-lippman Also maybe from The Atlantic (from 1919), "The Basic Problem of Democracy" by Walter Lippman: https://archive.is/https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1919/11/the-basic-problem-of-democracy/569095/ https://archive.is/https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arch...
Aurornis 9mo ago
> * As (ostensibly) a representative Democracy America's fate is dictated by the majority of it's citizens. No, it's determined by the people who actually go out and vote. Bizarrely, voter turnout among younger people remains low. It's beyond frustrating to work with large groups of young people who are seemingly always talking politics and angry about something political, then to watch as half of them either forget to vote or act like they're too apathetic to vote. The craziest part was seeing this apathy play out in states with vote-by-mail systems that required as little effort as possible. I still don't get it.
- pstuart 9mo ago
  There were millions of voters who refused to vote for Harris because of the Gaza situation -- oh, the irony. https://www.imeupolicyproject.org/postelection-polling https://www.imeupolicyproject.org/postelection-polling
  - immibis 9mo ago
    That's half the problem. Democrats aren't offering much.
    - paulryanrogers 9mo ago
      What do you think would be "much"? Because even just the boring sanity of Biden Harris was leagues better than what we all saw coming in 2024. (Putting aside that whole constitutional amendment about insurrections.)
      - immibis 9mo ago
        Maybe they could promise to make the rent lower. Or to make abortion legal. Or to stop bombing 2 million brown children in the Middle East. Or literally anything people actually want, instead of running on the singular platform or "obviously they'll vote for us because we're not the Republicans". People are getting really tired of the latter. Notice every time a candidate comes out who actually promises things people want he wins by a landslide?
throwaway2037 9mo ago
> Fifty three percent of Americans now read below the sixth grade level. I don't know what to think when I see these quotes. Are you writing a local newspaper opinion piece about the "decline of America"? How is it meaningful to this discussion? It's like a poison blowdart shot from behind the stage curtain that kills the messenger. By the way, I Googled for the equivalent stat about Canada: "48-49% having skills below a high school level". I'm not here to bad mouth the Canadian education system, but I think you will find fairly similar stats in most highly developed nations.
- watwut 9mo ago
  This talking point never contains international comparison nor historical comparison. Most people using it do not even know what "sixth grade level" actually is. They just know it means "a little".
  - deleted 9mo ago
    [deleted]
  - mapontosevenths 9mo ago
    Who cares how they're doing it in Albania? It used to be better in America, now it's worse and it's taken our entire society with it.* I DO know exactly what sixth grade level is. It means they can read simple paragraphs, but not critically. These people lack the ability to think critically because they never learned it. They're the ones that open phishing emails and get taken by shady real estate con-men and Nigerian prince scammers. You can be semi-literate and be a good person. You can't be semi-literate and make good decisions. Not in the modern world. * To clarify - Reading levels in the United States have been declining at an alarming rate for a long time. They peaked in 1992 and have been steadily decaying since. You'll also note that 1992 was the year Dan Quayle was disqualified from the presidency because he couldn't spell potato. Imagine applying those standards to a modern politician.
    - watwut 9mo ago
      > Who cares how they're doing it in Albania? It would be interesting comparison, actually. As interesting as French, Germany or whatever. > It used to be better in America, now it's worse and it's taken our entire society with it. [...] They peaked in 1992 and have been steadily decaying since. I checked out tests and it is not true. Reading scores in 2022 were still higher then those in 1992. https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=38 https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=38 So, yeah, this would be an interesting historical comparison. It was worst most of the time. > These people lack the ability to think critically because they never learned it. They're the ones that open phishing emails and get taken by shady real estate con-men and Nigerian prince scammers. You are confusing two different things here. First off, highly educated people are in fact vulnerable to scammers ... frequently because of their own confidence. > You can be semi-literate and be a good person. You can't be semi-literate and make good decisions. Not in the modern world. But issue in modern world are not people just dont make good decisions. It is people who make immoral decisions. Vance have good reading skills, but he is still a fascist. > You'll also note that 1992 was the year Dan Quayle was disqualified from the presidency because he couldn't spell potato. This is not an example of mass of people using critical thinking and acting rationally. This is an example of blown up reaction ala Twitter mob latching on something trivial and making a big deal out of it. This is example of what happen when soundbite wins over substance.
nh23423fefe 9mo ago
> It's so simple: everyone is stupider than me. These are facts dontcha know. The science is on my side.
greggoB 9mo ago
> Fifty three percent of Americans now read below the sixth grade level. I thought this was a joke. Like, holy shit I regret looking this up and finding out it's not BS https://www.snopes.com/news/2022/08/02/us-literacy-rate/ https://www.snopes.com/news/2022/08/02/us-literacy-rate/

datsci_est_2015 9mo ago

I think it’s also important to talk about what it means to “read at a 6th grade level” when this is mentioned, because a lot of people (myself included) might assume that just means they could finish and understand a book intended for 6th graders. But there’s actually meaningful criteria that sheds some light on the critical thinking capabilities of people who can or can’t read at certain levels, especially as it pertains to propaganda. Below a certain level, people are not well-educated enough to critically assess a text against the motivations of its authors (somewhere around 9th grade). Americans are prone to conspiratorial thinking so you might think that that’s alright because they’re often skeptical of any text, but it just seems like it causes them to dig even deeper into the propaganda that’s targeted to them. It’s kind of like learning that some people don’t have an inner monologue, or that they aren’t capable of imagining shapes or objects abstractly in their mind. Except it’s a lot more serious as it deals with critical thinking directly: these people don’t understand that what they’re reading was written for a purpose.

paulryanrogers 9mo ago
This isn't accidental. Religious indoctrination literally teaches generations to make special loopholes in critical thinking and healthy skepticism to maintain their faith. And it has paid off in easy to manipulate masses for centuries.
- arrowleaf 9mo ago
  The more religious people I know are some of the best critical thinkers. Especially those types who enroll their kids in the 'classical' education model. With the decline of religion in the USA, I don't think this is a very coherent scapegoat.
  - paulryanrogers 9mo ago
    Religion isn't the only factor, nor did I claim it was. But it's the only one I've seen convince PhDs to believe self contradictory "scriptures", cherry picked "evidence", appeals to authority, parrot useless platitudes, indoctrinate their kids, dismiss injustices, other people even for the most trivial differences in doctrine, and consistently vote against their own interests.

Loudergood 9mo ago

In what language? 78% of Americans have English as their first language.

Marsymars 9mo ago
I don't think that's right - it looks like the stat is that 78% of Americans speak *only* English at home. I'm not American, but anecdotally, a supermajority (like 80-90%) of people I know who speak multiple languages at home speak English at native fluency. (e.g. in my semi-extended family - parents/siblings/nibblings/partner/parents-in-law, there are 9 of us, and only 2 are more comfortable in French than English, but none of us would qualify as speaking *only* English at home.)
mlrtime 9mo ago
Also, look into how the statistic is gathered vs other countries. There is no exact definition on this statistic and how to measure. There is also reporting biases. Single person vs household for example.
mapontosevenths 9mo ago
I don't care what language they read, just that they're capable of reading (and thinking) like adults.

shepherdjerred 9mo ago

Why is literacy so important? Wasn’t literacy lower in the US at other points in time?

drpepper42 9mo ago
The Lippmann school of democracy sort of predisposed that people were too stupid and that through journalists would emerge a reasonable set of choices. For the most part that matches the way politics worked in the USA and most democracies until recently. Unfortunately the internet disrupted things such that suddenly everyone needs to actually be democratically adept in at least some form more akin to the Dewey school of thought. The combination of literacy and the algorithmic propaganda machine is a pretty big stumbling block.
- tyrust 9mo ago
  Interesting comment. I haven't heard this problem phrased this way nor have I heard of these schools, do you have a recommendation for learning more about this?
  - drpepper42 9mo ago
    Adapt! (Barbara Stiegler) She puts it all together relatively succinctly if dense. You can just read Dewey too if you want to be closer to the source. He's a bit more interesting because it is more of the road not taken out of the progressive era.
    - tyrust 9mo ago
      Cool, thanks for the rec!
  - throw0101d 9mo ago
    See perhaps: > At the turn of the 20th century, a crucial debate emerged between Walter Lippmann and John Dewey over the viability of democracy in an increasingly complex world. Lippmann critiqued democracy’s reliance on public opinion, arguing that citizens construct simplified “pseudo-environments” shaped by media and stereotypes, rendering them ill-equipped to make informed decisions on vast global issues. He warned that modern democracies are driven more by emotionally charged reactions than by accurate understanding, and that media, language, and time constraints further distort reality. Dewey responded not by dismissing Lippmann’s concerns, but by reframing democracy as more than a political system—it was, to him, an ethical ideal and a form of social cooperation. Viewing society as an interconnected organism, Dewey believed individuals flourish only through participation and education. He saw democracy as a continuous process of mutual growth, where every person contributes uniquely, and where the antidote to authoritarianism lies in cultivating thoughtful, empowered citizens—not in retreating from democratic ideals, but in deepening them. * https://www.philosophizethis.org/podcast/dewey-lippman https://www.philosophizethis.org/podcast/dewey-lippman Also maybe from The Atlantic (from 1919), "The Basic Problem of Democracy" by Walter Lippman: https://archive.is/https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1919/11/the-basic-problem-of-democracy/569095/ https://archive.is/https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arch...

Aurornis 9mo ago

> * As (ostensibly) a representative Democracy America's fate is dictated by the majority of it's citizens. No, it's determined by the people who actually go out and vote. Bizarrely, voter turnout among younger people remains low. It's beyond frustrating to work with large groups of young people who are seemingly always talking politics and angry about something political, then to watch as half of them either forget to vote or act like they're too apathetic to vote. The craziest part was seeing this apathy play out in states with vote-by-mail systems that required as little effort as possible. I still don't get it.

pstuart 9mo ago
There were millions of voters who refused to vote for Harris because of the Gaza situation -- oh, the irony. https://www.imeupolicyproject.org/postelection-polling https://www.imeupolicyproject.org/postelection-polling
- immibis 9mo ago
  That's half the problem. Democrats aren't offering much.
  - paulryanrogers 9mo ago
    What do you think would be "much"? Because even just the boring sanity of Biden Harris was leagues better than what we all saw coming in 2024. (Putting aside that whole constitutional amendment about insurrections.)
    - immibis 9mo ago
      Maybe they could promise to make the rent lower. Or to make abortion legal. Or to stop bombing 2 million brown children in the Middle East. Or literally anything people actually want, instead of running on the singular platform or "obviously they'll vote for us because we're not the Republicans". People are getting really tired of the latter. Notice every time a candidate comes out who actually promises things people want he wins by a landslide?

throwaway2037 9mo ago

> Fifty three percent of Americans now read below the sixth grade level. I don't know what to think when I see these quotes. Are you writing a local newspaper opinion piece about the "decline of America"? How is it meaningful to this discussion? It's like a poison blowdart shot from behind the stage curtain that kills the messenger. By the way, I Googled for the equivalent stat about Canada: "48-49% having skills below a high school level". I'm not here to bad mouth the Canadian education system, but I think you will find fairly similar stats in most highly developed nations.

watwut 9mo ago
This talking point never contains international comparison nor historical comparison. Most people using it do not even know what "sixth grade level" actually is. They just know it means "a little".
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
- mapontosevenths 9mo ago
  Who cares how they're doing it in Albania? It used to be better in America, now it's worse and it's taken our entire society with it.* I DO know exactly what sixth grade level is. It means they can read simple paragraphs, but not critically. These people lack the ability to think critically because they never learned it. They're the ones that open phishing emails and get taken by shady real estate con-men and Nigerian prince scammers. You can be semi-literate and be a good person. You can't be semi-literate and make good decisions. Not in the modern world. * To clarify - Reading levels in the United States have been declining at an alarming rate for a long time. They peaked in 1992 and have been steadily decaying since. You'll also note that 1992 was the year Dan Quayle was disqualified from the presidency because he couldn't spell potato. Imagine applying those standards to a modern politician.
  - watwut 9mo ago
    > Who cares how they're doing it in Albania? It would be interesting comparison, actually. As interesting as French, Germany or whatever. > It used to be better in America, now it's worse and it's taken our entire society with it. [...] They peaked in 1992 and have been steadily decaying since. I checked out tests and it is not true. Reading scores in 2022 were still higher then those in 1992. https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=38 https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=38 So, yeah, this would be an interesting historical comparison. It was worst most of the time. > These people lack the ability to think critically because they never learned it. They're the ones that open phishing emails and get taken by shady real estate con-men and Nigerian prince scammers. You are confusing two different things here. First off, highly educated people are in fact vulnerable to scammers ... frequently because of their own confidence. > You can be semi-literate and be a good person. You can't be semi-literate and make good decisions. Not in the modern world. But issue in modern world are not people just dont make good decisions. It is people who make immoral decisions. Vance have good reading skills, but he is still a fascist. > You'll also note that 1992 was the year Dan Quayle was disqualified from the presidency because he couldn't spell potato. This is not an example of mass of people using critical thinking and acting rationally. This is an example of blown up reaction ala Twitter mob latching on something trivial and making a big deal out of it. This is example of what happen when soundbite wins over substance.

nh23423fefe 9mo ago

> It's so simple: everyone is stupider than me. These are facts dontcha know. The science is on my side.

greggoB 9mo ago

> Fifty three percent of Americans now read below the sixth grade level. I thought this was a joke. Like, holy shit I regret looking this up and finding out it's not BS https://www.snopes.com/news/2022/08/02/us-literacy-rate/ https://www.snopes.com/news/2022/08/02/us-literacy-rate/