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> The C15 represents a time when a vehicle was a tool. I feel vehicles want to turn into a subscription service these days. I wonder how differently cars would
by KronisLV 10mo ago
> The C15 represents a time when a vehicle was a tool. I feel vehicles want to turn into a subscription service these days.
I wonder how differently cars would be built, if instead of maximizing for value extraction and crap nobody needs, they instead were optimized for utility and maintenance (and sure, fuel economy, aerodynamics and some sane environmental stuff). Like take the C15 and add 2-4 decades of manufacturing and safety improvements, while keeping it simple and utilitarian.
- amelius 10mo agoWell, it requires a different way of thinking but that's exactly how cars will be built if you'd use them via a subscription (fuel included).
- Fiveplus 10mo agoThat would be the absolute dream engineering brief. If I actually sit down and design that vehicle, it would have something like this. List, off the top of my head. 1. You keep the modern metallurgy and the crumple zones. You keep ABS and basic traction control because they are solved problems that save lives without needing cloud connectivity. 2. Instead of a 2000 USD proprietary touchscreen that will be obsolete in 3 years, the dashboard could be just a double DIN slot and a heavy-duty, universal tablet mount with a 100W USB-C PD port. The car provides the power and the speakers and my phone provides the maps and music. When the tech improves, you upgrade your phone, not your dashboard. 3. Nobs and buttons instead of touchscreens like VW has done recently, if my memory serves me right. The tragedy is that regulations in the EU and North America make this incredibly difficult to sell. The sane environmental stuff you mentioned has morphed into a requirement for deeply integrated electronic oversight. But I genuinely believe there is a massive, silent majority of drivers waiting for a car that promises nothing other than to start every morning and never ask for a software update.
- helsinkiandrew 10mo ago> The sane environmental stuff you mentioned has morphed into a requirement for deeply integrated electronic oversight Decent catalytic converters require an array of sensors, ECU, and ability to fine control the engine inputs to work - without them most large cities would become smog ridden hells.
- ramesh31 10mo agoThis is why late 90s cars are objectively the greatest ever built. You had ECUs, cats, ABS, disc brakes, airbags, power steering, and conventional automatic transmissions. Everything that makes a modern car safe and reliable, but none of the high tech digital BS that has infused things nowadays.
- dgacmu 10mo agoESC (electronic stability control) didn't become common until about 2010 to 2015. It makes a really big difference for safety -- EU estimates are that it's saved more than 15,000 lives. Let's backport that one too. :)
- Glawen 10mo agoIt was available already on late 90s vehicles. That was the fix to solve Mercedes Class A failing Elk test: put ESP on all trims
- wrigby 10mo agoMy 2004 RX-8 had decently solid ESC, but it was a “high-end” vehicle at the time. It’s definitely something we want to keep in our idealized vehicle (but let’s also keep the “disable ESC so I can have fun” button)
- 20after4 10mo agoI was going to make this exact comment. The RX-8 had excellent stability control. Saved my ass at least once going too fast around a 90 degree corner. It also behaved really well on icy roads. It was pretty incredible for a rear wheel drive sports car, especially impressive at the time compared to every other car on the road back then.
- dizhn 10mo agoI bought my first real wheel drive car in 2014. Still have it. It's not a race car. About 170hp. It struggles at the smallest curves. Good thing it has traction control and esp. Except all the front wheel cars I had before, one even slightly more powerful and smaller, never needed any of that. Never ever buying a rwd again. (Enthusiast forums of the brand tell me I don't know how to drive RWD. Skill issue. :D)
- HPsquared 10mo agoMaybe Framework could get into the car business.
- roland35 10mo agoYou should look into the slate truck! This is exactly what they are trying to do
- kaonwarb 10mo agohttps://www.slate.auto https://www.slate.auto
- everdrive 10mo agoHow about an option just to have one of those old Ford radios with the huge buttons you can push with gloves on? And maybe an aux-in?
- nandomrumber 10mo agoSo long as it also plays cassettes. My first car had the mechanical radio buttons and cassette player, I think you even had to turn the cassette over when one side ended.
- deleted 10mo ago[deleted]
- jfengel 10mo agoIncidentally, you're describing my 2020 Subaru Impreza. Under $20k for my dealer demo. I do wish it supported a later version of Android Auto so that I could run that via Bluetooth. (It does have regular Bluetooth but that's just audio.)
- crazysim 10mo agoWireless Android Auto or Carplay generally use BT to setup but WiFi to send the bulk of the graphical data over. That said, there are adapters to make an existing Android Auto Wireless if you want it. I think some are sold on Amazon too so you could probably try and maybe return. I don't have any experience with them since I'm very happy with my car's built in wired Android Auto and the reliability of cabling but it is something you can try.
- jfengel 10mo agoThanks for the tip. I'll look into it.
- devilbunny 10mo agoI have one for my wife's car that has wired-only CarPlay. The dongle can do Android Auto as well. It has a bit of lag compared to wired or built-in wireless CarPlay (have used that in rentals) but it's not really an issue for usability. It was maybe $30.
- cuu508 10mo agoWere they sold with an option to have have no OEM infotainment? Just speakers and a phone mount?
- jfengel 10mo agoI don't think it has any OEM infotainment. I think there is some kind of software in there but I've never looked at it. It's not intrusive.
- hypercube33 10mo agoWe already had basically the solution you suggested with airplay/car play - USB charger with audio out that just is a display. when a phone isn't plugged in it shows super basic radio features like station and song name for AM and FM.
- 20after4 10mo agoHad it and now most manufacturers are abandoning that for some proprietary crap that's much worse and requires a subscription for navigation and music streaming.
- ornornor 10mo ago> Instead of a 2000 USD proprietary touchscreen that will be obsolete in 3 years, the dashboard could be just a double DIN slot and a heavy-duty, universal tablet mount with a 100W USB-C PD port. The car provides the power and the speakers and my phone provides the maps and music. When the tech improves, you upgrade your phone, not your dashboard. Dacia does that. The base sandero comes with speakers and Bluetooth. The rest is up to you, there is no screen no radio.
- kergonath 10mo agoI am happy with Car Play as a decent middle ground. It’s nice to have a large screen, and everything is still done on the phone and not on a shite computer whose components were cost-cut to an inch of their lives.
- klum 10mo agoI have a theory that these environmental regulations at least to some degree defeat themselves. They make engines more complicated, so more fragile and harder for an amateur (edit: or any professional who isn't their own brand repair shops) to service. They encourage smaller-block engines with turbos and compressors which makes the engine more short-lived. They produce stuff like throttle-hang and gear selection recommendations optimized for driving economy, not engine longevity (or driving experience, for that matter). On the whole, they seem to be contributing to this movement of taking power away from the end consumer and making your product more and more like a subscription (this goes further than the car industry, of course). I do realize that it's important to cut down on pollution! And maybe this kind of stuff has been studied... although I imagine it would be very hard to do accurately. Imagine if a car manufacturer would provide service guides, easily-accessible part diagrams and competitively priced spare parts. Imagine if they optimized for longevity and if the handbook that came with the car had more technical details than it had warnings about how doing any kind of maintenance yourself will result in a) your death and b) a voided warranty. That would be pretty nice.
- nandomrumber 10mo agoDid I hear right that some new vehicles are claiming 20,000km service intervals? I know I’ve seen 15,000 service intervals. This is the minimum to maintain the warranty for the first 3 / 5 / 7 seven years whatever. If you change the oil at every 5000k and never turn off a cold engine - all petrol engines have fuel wash down at ignition cut, but much worse when the engine is come - you should expect 500,000+ plus kilometres out of an engine barring any metallurgical problems or manufacturing defects. Petrol makes a poor lubricant for engines, and fucks engine oil. The less of it in engine oil the better. Modern engines and fully synthetic oils are way better than the their counterparts from my youth, but 15,000+ kilometres service intervals are less about what engines need and more about what the folks over in marketing need. Edit: I did see a second hand commercial diesel van recently that had met all service requirements for the warranty period, x number of years or 90,000 kilometres. This meant it had logged exactly two oil changes since new, and the third had just been done at 90,000. 90,000k on two oil changes. Wild.
- schmuckonwheels 10mo ago>the dashboard could be just a double DIN slot and a heavy-duty, universal tablet mount with a 100W USB-C PD port. The car provides the power and the speakers and my phone provides the maps and music. Legally mandated backup cameras make your idea DOA. In fact, nearly everything terrible about cars in the last decade can be traced to regulations in some way. Wondering why transmissions are insanely complicated and unreliable now? Manufacturers were forced to eek out an extra couple MPG due to continually tightening environmental regulations. Something has to give.
- MobiusHorizons 10mo ago> In fact, nearly everything terrible about cars in the last decade can be traced to regulations in some way. I think the reason we even need backup cameras now is that visibility is so poor on modern vehicles. I think that in turn is due to increasing the height of the bottom of the windows for better airbags. I’m sure it’s great in a crash, but visibility is also a safety concern. Not all of it is regulations though, but lot of common complaints.
- kalleboo 10mo ago>Legally mandated backup cameras make your idea DOA. Cheap cars without fancy entertainment systems put the backup camera screen in the rear-view mirror. You can get these kits for like $20 on aliexpress.
- AngryData 10mo agoA backup camera and screen only costs like $20 though, even buying it 3rd party. There is no requirement that it has to be in the center console, in fact I would think that is the worst possible place since it is the farthest spot possible away from your actual mirrors.
- Braxton1980 10mo agoI can unlock my doors with my phone and monitor the cars location with my phone with cloud connectivity. This isn't required and was offered as a 5 year free plan with optional paid extensions after How is this bad?
- yjftsjthsd-h 10mo agoNow the car company has a live feed of your location and the ability to unlock your car at will. That's probably fine unless they get hacked, at which point it abruptly becomes less fine. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35919133 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35919133
- deleted 10mo ago[deleted]
- tmerc 10mo agoThey sell your location data, driving habits, etc. then the insurance company buys it and raises your rates. I declined it when I bought my Subaru and they registered my car to someone else's email address, giving someone else access to those features. That module is now on a shelf in my garage. I park in gear (manual) so remote start can launch my car into a wall. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2024/03/how-figure-out-what-your-car-knows-about-you-and-opt-out-sharing-when-you-can https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2024/03/how-figure-out-what-yo...
- 4MOAisgoodenuf 10mo agoPlease allow me to introduce you to the second gen Toyota Yaris
- sokoloff 10mo agoMy understanding is that ABS in cars has surprisingly little effect on fatalities. It is a huge lifesaver when deployed to motorcycles, and a benefit to reducing non-fatal crashes, but not much for fatals in cars. (I agree it's a well-solved problem and the reduction in non-fatal crashes makes it worthwhile from a convenience standpoint alone.)
- kasey_junk 10mo agoIt’s the ford transit connect. Car makers can’t make money on them because a) for personal use they are uncomfortable and b) commercial buyers drive them a million miles before replacing them. The margin in cars is in the luxury. And for most personal buyers they’ll get as much luxury as they can afford because they are contemplating their monthly cost over total price and leather seats cost $80 more per month on a $600 monthly, they’ll splurge.
- HereBeBeasties 10mo agoSuch a thing exists. It's called a Dacia Duster. Well, certainly for utility and to a lesser extent economy.
- walthamstow 10mo agoFiat Panda 4x4 too.
- nothrabannosir 10mo agoI had a Panda from the early 2010s and that was my exact thought reading this thread: sounds like a fiat panda. Surprised to see this downvoted. Did they change so much?
- testing22321 10mo agoDownvoted because they’re non-existent for north americans
- prmoustache 10mo agoAren't the Fiat 500 and Panda the same car but with only a neo retro design on the former?
- klez 10mo agoNope This is the original 500 https://www.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/images/car-reviews/first-drives/legacy/fiat-500-af-802.jpg https://www.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/images/c... This is the new 500 https://www.actualidadmotor.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/FIAT-500-Portada.jpg https://www.actualidadmotor.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/F... I'll ignore the 500X and 500L because, to me, they are completely different cars. This is the original Panda from the 80s https://www.hagerty.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/The-original-1980-Fiat-Panda_Hagerty.jpg https://www.hagerty.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/The-ori... This is the Panda from the early 2000s (the one I used to practice for my driving license) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/2004_Fiat_Panda_Dynamic_1.2_Front.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/2004_Fia... This is the more recent model https://www.motornet.it/img/modelli/auto/FIA/PANDA%202021_1.jpg https://www.motornet.it/img/modelli/auto/FIA/PANDA%202021_1.... The Panda is a completely different design.
- Earw0rm 10mo agoCitroen Berlingo is basically that.
- jacquesm 10mo agoModularity would be great too. Standardized connectors and outer dimensions for engines even between brands. Medium, large, small. You don't need 100 different types. Meanwhile, all this has been overtaken by the need to get away from fossil fuels as soon as we practically can. Oil should not be valued based on the cost of pumping it out of the ground but based on the cost of creating a liter of it from raw materials (CO2, lots of energy).
- ultratalk 10mo ago> Modularity would be great too. Unfortunately, that wouldn't pad the car companies' margins. What's best for th consumer is generally worse for the company.
- Aurornis 10mo agoCars are highly modular. Parts are shared across as many models as possible. Engine series are designed to last 10-15 years. The car makers increase their margins by keeping their cars modular.
- alextingle 10mo agoYou are talking about modularity of design, not aftermarket repairability.
- Aurornis 10mo ago> Standardized connectors and outer dimensions for engines even between brands. Medium, large, small. You don't need 100 different types. There aren't 100 different types of engines. At any given time each auto manufacturer only has a couple different engines in production. Different models can get different variations for performance or use targets, but auto manufacturers are very good at standardizing within their company. Look at the list of Honda engines: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Honda_engines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Honda_engines Notice how they're grouped by series? All of the engines in each series share a common platform with minor changes from year to year. In many cases you can swap parts between engines within the same series. An engine series lasts 10-15 years. Some times the parts even carry over to the next series. Swapping between brands is a pipe dream, though. Forcing everyone to fit their engineering into a bounding box that has to be agreed upon by all auto manufacturers around the world would only lead to either unnecessarily large vehicles with wasted space (to leave room for future engineering needs) or unnecessarily complicated engineering to fit everything into the pre-defined allowable engine envelope. All to accommodate engine swaps between manufacturers which is never necessary for consumer cars.
- wiseowise 10mo agoYeah, but how do poor VCs make money then?
- _3u10 10mo agoBut whatever you want Toyota has a 10k truck and a jimmy is 15k, if you need a car a vitz can be had for 12k
- wrigby 10mo agoThis comment shines a spotlight on my issues with the US auto market. None of these vehicles are sold in the US, for a variety of reasons - both economic and regulatory. I hate knowing that the vehicles I want to buy both exist and are affordable, but I just can’t have them. Meanwhile, the cars sold in my market are all egregiously enormous, have giant screens inside, etc. This is the very definition of a “first world problem,” but it sure is frustrating.
- deleted 10mo ago[deleted]
- _3u10 10mo agoOne of the many reasons I choose not to live in “the west”.
- Aurornis 10mo ago> I wonder how differently cars would be built, if instead of maximizing for value extraction and crap nobody needs, they instead were optimized for utility and maintenance (and sure, fuel economy, aerodynamics and some sane environmental stuff). Auto manufacturers already have stripped-down base models of their entry-level vehicles. Many have commercial versions of their vehicles, especially trucks and vans, that are stripped down. The stripped down base models don't sell well. Remember how the internet was clamoring for an iPhone Mini? Whenever there were complaints about modern cell phones, you could find what looked like unanimous agreement that a smaller iPhone would be the golden ticket. Then Apple made an iPhone Mini, and it did not sell well. The same happens with vehicles. Whenever you find threads complaining about modern vehicles it seems unanimous that modern vehicles have too many things consumers don't want and we'd be better off with simple base models. Yet simple base models do exist already and they don't sell well. Real consumers look at their $20,000 Nissan Versa and realize that spending an extra $1-2K on amenities isn't going to change their monthly payment much. There is a lot of precedent for this. The Tata Nano was an Indian micro car that was small, low-power, and had bare minimum amenities. It was under $5K USD in inflation-adjusted dollars. It was discontinued due to low demand because sales declined steadily year over year. Nobody wanted it.
- soared 10mo agoAgreed - check out for example a Toyota rav4 le. This is the base model with effectively zero modern “subscription-esque” fancy features. It’s got a touchscreen and power windows, but otherwise it’s all the reliability/etc of Toyota and that’s it. About half the price of what most rav4s are listed at and $20k+ cheaper than a 4Runner.
- hedgehog 10mo agoOh no, across the line Toyota still tries to sell you a subscription service that's required for things like remote start.
- Aurornis 10mo agoSo? Why would people buying the cheapest possible model care? Remote start is a luxury feature. Just ignore the subscription offer like a luxury trim option.
- __turbobrew__ 10mo agoYou would get the toyota hilux champ which is not purchasable in rich countries.
- threethirtytwo 10mo agoCompanies would make less money because consumers just buy a product and keep it for generations if the product quality is THAT good. When companies make less money, there's less jobs. When there's less jobs people have less money to spend on things like Rent.
- ghurtado 10mo agoBy now, we would have reached a quality standard of vehicles that are regularly passed down across several generations before they stop being useful. You can quickly see what a mortal sin this would be against our Lord and Savior, Capitalism.
- GuB-42 10mo agoNot easy I would say. Safety improvement means larger crumple zones, reinforcement, etc... Which mean a bigger and heavier vehicle if you want to keep the same capacity. That in turn means a more powerful engine, brakes, wheels and tyres, etc... further increasing the size and weight of the vehicle. This is an exponential factor. Fuel economy and environmental stuff (which are linked) come with tighter engine control for better combustion and cleaner exhaust. It means tighter tolerances so simple tools may be less appropriate, and electronics. And there are comfort elements that are hard to pass nowadays: A/C, power steering, door lock and windows. Mandatory safety equipment like airbags and ABS. Even simple cars like what Dacia makes are still bigger, heavier and more complex than older cars like the C15, they don't really have a choice.