31 ms·

That’s a great step, now if they would just do one that respects your privacy and doesn’t track your every move, I’d buy one.

monerozcash 9mo ago
This doesn't seem like a particularly good reason to not buy a car. Either you need one or don't. Removing network connectivity from basically any new car is trivial, often as simple as pulling an easily accessible fuse.
- jqpabc123 9mo ago
  Removing network connectivity from basically any new car is trivial, often as simple as pulling an easily accessible fuse. I'm guessing that you haven't actually done this on "basically any new car". If you had tried, you would know that there is no fuse dedicated to "network connectivity". It is typically tied in with other, often essential functions like the engine control computer --- specifically in order to thwart a simple disconnect. What I have seen done is to tear into the right roof pillar and cut the wires going to the antenna on the roof. But this is usually not without consequences as well such as a perpetual error code display and/or the radio, navigation or entertainment functions stop working.
  - monerozcash 9mo ago
    I've done this on a W222, a W223, a continental GT and an Urus. On each of those cars it was as easy as disconnecting the antenna, on none of them did I have to tear into the roof pillars. I've never seen an antenna that was difficult to disconnect, on the super simple end you have something like the W222 where you can literally just pop out the antenna cover on the roof and just remove the antenna module inside. >But this is usually not without consequences as well such as a perpetual error code display or the radio, navigation or entertainment functions stop working. Well sure, I do have cars without GPS because I was lazy. Carplay still works fine, so can't really bother to do anything about it.
    - jen20 9mo ago
      > Carplay still works fine, so can't really bother to do anything about it. That largely depends on the specific vehicle. I’m surprised that there wer no negative effects in pulling the telematics fuse on a W223, less surprised on a W222.
      - monerozcash 9mo ago
        I just pulled the antennas on both of those, I don't think there's an easily accessible fuse that wouldn't cut off a bunch of other stuff.
    - potato3732842 9mo ago
      Add a whole ton of Fords to the list. The cell modem is just a module you can unplug on a lot of them to no ill effect.
      - monerozcash 9mo ago
        Yeah, I seriously doubt that there's a single car with which this would actually be difficult to accomplish. Even if you can't pull the modem or the sim card (less common now) directly, you can certainly always find and disable the antenna connection. Any decent shop will be able to do this for a reasonable price.
  - bigfatkitten 9mo ago
    > If you had tried, you would know that there is no fuse dedicated to "network connectivity". Depends on the car. On modern Fords, it’s the TCU fuse. > What I have seen done is to tear into the right roof pillar and cut the wires going to the antenna on the roof Nonsense. Only a fool would do this, rather than simply disconnecting the antennas from the back of the module. Manufacturers almost universally use FAKRA connectors for quick and error-free assembly on the production line.
    - jqpabc123 9mo ago
      Only a fool would do this, rather than simply disconnecting the antennas from the back of the module. Depends on the car. It some cases, this is not simple. Accessing the connections means disassembling the dash.
      - bigfatkitten 9mo ago
        Yes, but no vehicle in the world requires you to go around chopping up cables.
constantcrying 9mo ago
They are bound by the GDPR, which automatically puts them ahead of every American or Chinese manufacturer. E.g. Tesla, even in Europe, is pretty blatantly ignoring privacy laws and is used to surveil the population: https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/tesla-waechtermodus-filmt-straftaten-und-sorgt-fuer-datenschutzdebatten-a-22c2dd0d-cc1c-40c3-8d8e-ca4fdef9d84b https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/tesla-waechtermodus-f... (paywall)
- crote 9mo ago
  VW was also bound by emission standards, yet Dieselgate still happened. I would be very surprised if it didn't have some kind of "heavily-restricted debugging interface, only available to select VW engineers, which provides a limited set of fully anonymous vehicle diagnostic metrics" - which in practice is of course used to sell trivially deanonymizable data to anyone with a few bucks to spare.
  - interloxia 9mo ago
    From 38c3 https://reynardsec.com/en/volkswagens-bad-streak-we-know-where-your-car-is/ https://reynardsec.com/en/volkswagens-bad-streak-we-know-whe... "The data, which includes detailed location information and even vehicle owner details, was left exposed and unprotected on the internet for an extended period of time." Wir wissen wo dein Auto steht Volksdaten von Volkswagen https://media.ccc.de/v/38c3-wir-wissen-wo-dein-auto-steht-volksdaten-von-volkswagen https://media.ccc.de/v/38c3-wir-wissen-wo-dein-auto-steht-vo...
  - constantcrying 9mo ago
    >VW was also bound by emission standards, yet Dieselgate still happened. Sure, but it is not like they just got away with that (ironically other manufacturers who did essentially the same thing, did mostly get away with it). >I would be very surprised if it didn't have some kind of "heavily-restricted debugging interface, only available to select VW engineers, which provides a limited set of fully anonymous vehicle diagnostic metrics" - which in practice is of course used to sell trivially deanonymizable data to anyone with a few bucks to spare. The GDPR allows you to receive a copy of all data a manufacturer has about you, "trivially deanonymizable" is by any reasonable interpretation of the GDPR personal data. Of course you can believe that VW and other manufacturers are secretly ignoring laws (again) and of course evidence for that would be hard to come by, but it it did come out it would be a massive scandal, with a massive criminal investigation. In general, do you want to have minimal laws protecting your privacy and manufacturers blatantly not caring about existing laws and individuals having no recourse or do you want strict laws protecting your privacy with manufacturers facing heavy sanctions, when they ignore those laws? The choice seems pretty clear.

monerozcash 9mo ago

This doesn't seem like a particularly good reason to not buy a car. Either you need one or don't. Removing network connectivity from basically any new car is trivial, often as simple as pulling an easily accessible fuse.

jqpabc123 9mo ago
Removing network connectivity from basically any new car is trivial, often as simple as pulling an easily accessible fuse. I'm guessing that you haven't actually done this on "basically any new car". If you had tried, you would know that there is no fuse dedicated to "network connectivity". It is typically tied in with other, often essential functions like the engine control computer --- specifically in order to thwart a simple disconnect. What I have seen done is to tear into the right roof pillar and cut the wires going to the antenna on the roof. But this is usually not without consequences as well such as a perpetual error code display and/or the radio, navigation or entertainment functions stop working.
- monerozcash 9mo ago
  I've done this on a W222, a W223, a continental GT and an Urus. On each of those cars it was as easy as disconnecting the antenna, on none of them did I have to tear into the roof pillars. I've never seen an antenna that was difficult to disconnect, on the super simple end you have something like the W222 where you can literally just pop out the antenna cover on the roof and just remove the antenna module inside. >But this is usually not without consequences as well such as a perpetual error code display or the radio, navigation or entertainment functions stop working. Well sure, I do have cars without GPS because I was lazy. Carplay still works fine, so can't really bother to do anything about it.
  - jen20 9mo ago
    > Carplay still works fine, so can't really bother to do anything about it. That largely depends on the specific vehicle. I’m surprised that there wer no negative effects in pulling the telematics fuse on a W223, less surprised on a W222.
    - monerozcash 9mo ago
      I just pulled the antennas on both of those, I don't think there's an easily accessible fuse that wouldn't cut off a bunch of other stuff.
  - potato3732842 9mo ago
    Add a whole ton of Fords to the list. The cell modem is just a module you can unplug on a lot of them to no ill effect.
    - monerozcash 9mo ago
      Yeah, I seriously doubt that there's a single car with which this would actually be difficult to accomplish. Even if you can't pull the modem or the sim card (less common now) directly, you can certainly always find and disable the antenna connection. Any decent shop will be able to do this for a reasonable price.
- bigfatkitten 9mo ago
  > If you had tried, you would know that there is no fuse dedicated to "network connectivity". Depends on the car. On modern Fords, it’s the TCU fuse. > What I have seen done is to tear into the right roof pillar and cut the wires going to the antenna on the roof Nonsense. Only a fool would do this, rather than simply disconnecting the antennas from the back of the module. Manufacturers almost universally use FAKRA connectors for quick and error-free assembly on the production line.
  - jqpabc123 9mo ago
    Only a fool would do this, rather than simply disconnecting the antennas from the back of the module. Depends on the car. It some cases, this is not simple. Accessing the connections means disassembling the dash.
    - bigfatkitten 9mo ago
      Yes, but no vehicle in the world requires you to go around chopping up cables.

constantcrying 9mo ago

They are bound by the GDPR, which automatically puts them ahead of every American or Chinese manufacturer. E.g. Tesla, even in Europe, is pretty blatantly ignoring privacy laws and is used to surveil the population: https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/tesla-waechtermodus-filmt-straftaten-und-sorgt-fuer-datenschutzdebatten-a-22c2dd0d-cc1c-40c3-8d8e-ca4fdef9d84b https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/tesla-waechtermodus-f... (paywall)

crote 9mo ago
VW was also bound by emission standards, yet Dieselgate still happened. I would be very surprised if it didn't have some kind of "heavily-restricted debugging interface, only available to select VW engineers, which provides a limited set of fully anonymous vehicle diagnostic metrics" - which in practice is of course used to sell trivially deanonymizable data to anyone with a few bucks to spare.
- interloxia 9mo ago
  From 38c3 https://reynardsec.com/en/volkswagens-bad-streak-we-know-where-your-car-is/ https://reynardsec.com/en/volkswagens-bad-streak-we-know-whe... "The data, which includes detailed location information and even vehicle owner details, was left exposed and unprotected on the internet for an extended period of time." Wir wissen wo dein Auto steht Volksdaten von Volkswagen https://media.ccc.de/v/38c3-wir-wissen-wo-dein-auto-steht-volksdaten-von-volkswagen https://media.ccc.de/v/38c3-wir-wissen-wo-dein-auto-steht-vo...
- constantcrying 9mo ago
  >VW was also bound by emission standards, yet Dieselgate still happened. Sure, but it is not like they just got away with that (ironically other manufacturers who did essentially the same thing, did mostly get away with it). >I would be very surprised if it didn't have some kind of "heavily-restricted debugging interface, only available to select VW engineers, which provides a limited set of fully anonymous vehicle diagnostic metrics" - which in practice is of course used to sell trivially deanonymizable data to anyone with a few bucks to spare. The GDPR allows you to receive a copy of all data a manufacturer has about you, "trivially deanonymizable" is by any reasonable interpretation of the GDPR personal data. Of course you can believe that VW and other manufacturers are secretly ignoring laws (again) and of course evidence for that would be hard to come by, but it it did come out it would be a massive scandal, with a massive criminal investigation. In general, do you want to have minimal laws protecting your privacy and manufacturers blatantly not caring about existing laws and individuals having no recourse or do you want strict laws protecting your privacy with manufacturers facing heavy sanctions, when they ignore those laws? The choice seems pretty clear.