4 ms·

The problem in Europe is that Whatsapp has become the standard for mobile messaging, and it's only available on Android and iOS This really nerfs the whole dum

by A_Duck 9mo ago

The problem in Europe is that Whatsapp has become the standard for mobile messaging, and it's only available on Android and iOS This really nerfs the whole dumbphone movement for Europeans, which should be a key market. I went on holiday with someone a few weeks ago who is toughing it out with a no-Whatsapp dumbphone. He missed the train home because he got locked out of the holiday cottage and couldn't get in touch with anyone.

Rohansi 9mo ago
I don't understand - how could they not get in touch with anyone? Surely SMS would have still worked if they were available on WhatsApp?
- A_Duck 9mo ago
  Trying to do an ELIHN here... On a holiday of 10 people, everybody exchanging numbers means 10x9/2 = 45 actions, with many of those edges between strangers (higher cost edge) Each person adding their friend to the Whatsapp group is 9 actions, with all edges between friends (low-cost edge) So in practice, only the second one happens. He had one other person's number, but that particular person didn't check their phone.
  - prmoustache 9mo ago
    What the heck is an ELIHN?
    - A_Duck 9mo ago
      Explain Like I'm Hacker News
      - prmoustache 9mo ago
        If that is your friend he surely had your number right and possibly others? Then why couldn't he get in touch with you or others? Most whatsapp groups end up being muted by almost anyone because they are an annoyance so they are hardly the place where you would ask for help anyway because virtually nobody would get notified.
        noAnswer 9mo ago
        This thread is peak Hacker News! WhatsApp is undoubtedly big in Europe: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1005178/share-population-using-whatsapp-europe/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1005178/share-population... Hacker News: No one needs it. No one uses its group features. Man Gesturing No Emoji. Just use a landline instead! > If that is your friend he surely had your number right and possibly others? He answered that. > Most whatsapp groups end up being muted by almost anyone because they are an annoyance so they are hardly the place where you would ask for help anyway because virtually nobody would get notified. Sure in a group of 10 everyone acts like you and mutes the holiday group for text, voice- and video-calls. Even on the last day with possible increased need for communication. How far can the goalposts be moved? In my social group I was always the guy that wanted other to use my chat program. Last year I caved and installed WhatsApp. Guess what: I didn't die and it isn't half bad.
        prmoustache 9mo ago
        The point is not to refute that whatsapp is big, the point is that you can still function without it and a lot of people actually do with little or zero friction.
- wolvoleo 9mo ago
  I have not used SMS in many years. Nor RCS. I don't want my mobile provider to have any part in my Comms besides moving bytes around.
  - ekjhgkejhgk 9mo ago
    You'll rather have Google and Facebook have a part in your comms? Before saying "E2E" please exercise your critical thinking. The OS is controlled by Google, so Google has access to everything in the phone's memory. The app is controlled by Facebook, so Facebook has access to everythig in the app's memory.
    - wolvoleo 9mo ago
      I don't use google accounts on my android phone. And yeah like you say whatever access they still have (not so much IMO) they have anyway regardless of which messenger I use. And yeah I do mind having facebook involved but it's just not really avoidable where I live. I really need whatsapp. I do however have one mitigation: I don't run the whatsapp app on my primary phone. I use a matrix bridge. The app is still installed on another phone which is left at home. Because every month or so you have to enter the pin code (apparently meta thinks us users are retards that will forget it if we don't keep entering it). On my phone I use the ElementX app then. I did get banned from whatsapp one time which was presumably to do with the bridge (I don't see what else it would be).
      - ekjhgkejhgk 9mo ago
        I'm not sure I understood. Are you saying that you have a primary phone which isn't Android, on which you type into Matrix, Matrix relays into a phone that you have a home which passes messages from Matrix into WhatsApp? Is that what you're describing?
    - minitech 9mo ago
      Before implying SMS is preferable to an E2EE messaging app because Google “has access to everything in the phone's memory”, please exercise your critical thinking. Okay, now we’ve established that even your dishonest spin on the relationship between companies that provide the software and communications using the software is extremely unconvincing: that’s a dishonest spin on the relationship between companies that provide the software and communications using the software. Google/Facebook has to mount an active attack, serving you malicious software, in order to get the kind of access you’re talking about, which is risky and something we’re slowly but surely getting better at defending against (attestation, transparency logs).
xcf_seetan 9mo ago
Funny, I am european and i never have used Whatsapp, and i can comunicate with everybody i need. There's also good old sms, that i think all phones still use. Anyway, doesn't he know how to make a simple phone call? Why are all comunications restricted to Whatsapp?
Lio 9mo ago
When you say "Europe" where exactly do you mean? My experience of not having a Whatsapp account and being in Europe is that I don't miss it. I'm not in a few group chats with people that won't use Signal but that's it. I've never had an issue contacting any business or any indivdual.
- wolvoleo 9mo ago
  Here in Spain you absolutely can't live without it lol. Also telegram
  - Lio 9mo ago
    Counter point, I had no issues on my last visit to Spain.
    - wolvoleo 9mo ago
      No I meant if you live here, not if you just visit of course. If you're part of society here you really need it.
  - prmoustache 9mo ago
    I live in Spain and I don't think you can't live without it. Sure you will get a bit socially disconnected at times but that's about it.
    - wolvoleo 9mo ago
      Well you won't die if you don't have it, no. But all my friends, local businesses etc everything is on WhatsApp (and telegram for larger groups). I'd really be an outcast if I didn't use it.
      - prmoustache 9mo ago
        Local business still also work with phone. I still have whatsapp but some of my contacts don't even care to check it anyway so they can take 2 weeks to see your messages. How useful is that? In the end I only really keep it to communicate with my family abroad and my in law's extended family in another continent. My own progeniture as well as my partner have conversation/xmpp setup on their smartphone + a laptop. While I haven't done a whatsapp suicide yet, I told them it was important to have other means of communication in case their phone died, a cloud vendor had issue or their account was suddently banned. I used to be in a group of parents when my kids were in primary school but it was mostly useless and full of intense mums arguing against each other. I barely looked at it. My dance class supposedly has a whatsapp group but I didn't join it and I heard only a few annoying persons post random memes in it. I went once there only to see nobody there and heard it was cancelled afterwards , no big deal. I'd rather do the trip once for nothing than be spammed all year long with stupid memes.
stonogo 9mo ago
This is not a dumbphone and it runs Whatsapp (and any other android app) just fine.
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
wiether 9mo ago
I'm an European no-Whatsapp guy and so are my friends that I go on holiday with so no issue. Meanwhile at the last work retreat they did everything through Whatsapp and it was so relaxing to be out of the loop. I just checked with my roommate in the morning to get the planning for the day, and I wandered as I wished. I missed a lot of impromptu events, sure. I also missed a few official events that changed place at the last minute. I went walking on the beach instead. And for the events I was expected to be active in, organizers just made sure that I was where I needed to be when I needed to. So I was able to completely relax and enjoy my stay. In the end everybody was exhausted while I was refreshed like after actual personal holiday! Enjoy your Whatsapp!
- mvdwoord 9mo ago
  Although I also know a handful of (euro) people who do not have Whatsapp, and a lot of the "missing out" can indeed be absorbed as you described. However, lots of people have a need for Whatsapp which cannot simply be ignored by walking on the beach. It is all about social trade-offs, personally I have almost all apps installed, most of them (or at least the group chats) muted. Some friends are signal only, some prefer telegram etc... sometimes it is just more "social" for you to adapt to a group. If the situation is that others want something from you, you can dictate the forms of communication, however it is quite legit for people to want to be a part of a larger group. No need for snarkiness.
jeroenhd 9mo ago
> I went on holiday with someone a few weeks ago who is toughing it out with a no-Whatsapp dumbphone. He missed the train home because he got locked out of the holiday cottage and couldn't get in touch with anyone. While WhatsApp is definitely the default messenger in many European countries, SMS and calling still exists and works on every phone. It'll cost you extra because of carrier shenanigans, but it's not like nobody has phone numbers anymore because of WhatsApp. You may be left out of group chats if you don't share the same group chat app, but not being able to get into contact with anyone shouldn't happen.
- lucb1e 9mo ago
  > it's not like nobody has phone numbers anymore because of WhatsApp Except for the companies that say you should use whatsapp to talk to the support desk. That phone number won't be ringing a physical phone that someone picks up when you call it
hulitu 9mo ago
> and couldn't get in touch with anyone. Couldn't he use the phone as a phone ? Or was he in Germany ?

by A_Duck 9mo ago

Rohansi 9mo ago

I don't understand - how could they not get in touch with anyone? Surely SMS would have still worked if they were available on WhatsApp?

A_Duck 9mo ago
Trying to do an ELIHN here... On a holiday of 10 people, everybody exchanging numbers means 10x9/2 = 45 actions, with many of those edges between strangers (higher cost edge) Each person adding their friend to the Whatsapp group is 9 actions, with all edges between friends (low-cost edge) So in practice, only the second one happens. He had one other person's number, but that particular person didn't check their phone.
- prmoustache 9mo ago
  What the heck is an ELIHN?
  - A_Duck 9mo ago
    Explain Like I'm Hacker News
    - prmoustache 9mo ago
      If that is your friend he surely had your number right and possibly others? Then why couldn't he get in touch with you or others? Most whatsapp groups end up being muted by almost anyone because they are an annoyance so they are hardly the place where you would ask for help anyway because virtually nobody would get notified.
      - noAnswer 9mo ago
        This thread is peak Hacker News! WhatsApp is undoubtedly big in Europe: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1005178/share-population-using-whatsapp-europe/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1005178/share-population... Hacker News: No one needs it. No one uses its group features. Man Gesturing No Emoji. Just use a landline instead! > If that is your friend he surely had your number right and possibly others? He answered that. > Most whatsapp groups end up being muted by almost anyone because they are an annoyance so they are hardly the place where you would ask for help anyway because virtually nobody would get notified. Sure in a group of 10 everyone acts like you and mutes the holiday group for text, voice- and video-calls. Even on the last day with possible increased need for communication. How far can the goalposts be moved? In my social group I was always the guy that wanted other to use my chat program. Last year I caved and installed WhatsApp. Guess what: I didn't die and it isn't half bad.
        prmoustache 9mo ago
        The point is not to refute that whatsapp is big, the point is that you can still function without it and a lot of people actually do with little or zero friction.
wolvoleo 9mo ago
I have not used SMS in many years. Nor RCS. I don't want my mobile provider to have any part in my Comms besides moving bytes around.
- ekjhgkejhgk 9mo ago
  You'll rather have Google and Facebook have a part in your comms? Before saying "E2E" please exercise your critical thinking. The OS is controlled by Google, so Google has access to everything in the phone's memory. The app is controlled by Facebook, so Facebook has access to everythig in the app's memory.
  - wolvoleo 9mo ago
    I don't use google accounts on my android phone. And yeah like you say whatever access they still have (not so much IMO) they have anyway regardless of which messenger I use. And yeah I do mind having facebook involved but it's just not really avoidable where I live. I really need whatsapp. I do however have one mitigation: I don't run the whatsapp app on my primary phone. I use a matrix bridge. The app is still installed on another phone which is left at home. Because every month or so you have to enter the pin code (apparently meta thinks us users are retards that will forget it if we don't keep entering it). On my phone I use the ElementX app then. I did get banned from whatsapp one time which was presumably to do with the bridge (I don't see what else it would be).
    - ekjhgkejhgk 9mo ago
      I'm not sure I understood. Are you saying that you have a primary phone which isn't Android, on which you type into Matrix, Matrix relays into a phone that you have a home which passes messages from Matrix into WhatsApp? Is that what you're describing?
  - minitech 9mo ago
    Before implying SMS is preferable to an E2EE messaging app because Google “has access to everything in the phone's memory”, please exercise your critical thinking. Okay, now we’ve established that even your dishonest spin on the relationship between companies that provide the software and communications using the software is extremely unconvincing: that’s a dishonest spin on the relationship between companies that provide the software and communications using the software. Google/Facebook has to mount an active attack, serving you malicious software, in order to get the kind of access you’re talking about, which is risky and something we’re slowly but surely getting better at defending against (attestation, transparency logs).

xcf_seetan 9mo ago

Funny, I am european and i never have used Whatsapp, and i can comunicate with everybody i need. There's also good old sms, that i think all phones still use. Anyway, doesn't he know how to make a simple phone call? Why are all comunications restricted to Whatsapp?

Lio 9mo ago

When you say "Europe" where exactly do you mean? My experience of not having a Whatsapp account and being in Europe is that I don't miss it. I'm not in a few group chats with people that won't use Signal but that's it. I've never had an issue contacting any business or any indivdual.

wolvoleo 9mo ago
Here in Spain you absolutely can't live without it lol. Also telegram
- Lio 9mo ago
  Counter point, I had no issues on my last visit to Spain.
  - wolvoleo 9mo ago
    No I meant if you live here, not if you just visit of course. If you're part of society here you really need it.
- prmoustache 9mo ago
  I live in Spain and I don't think you can't live without it. Sure you will get a bit socially disconnected at times but that's about it.
  - wolvoleo 9mo ago
    Well you won't die if you don't have it, no. But all my friends, local businesses etc everything is on WhatsApp (and telegram for larger groups). I'd really be an outcast if I didn't use it.
    - prmoustache 9mo ago
      Local business still also work with phone. I still have whatsapp but some of my contacts don't even care to check it anyway so they can take 2 weeks to see your messages. How useful is that? In the end I only really keep it to communicate with my family abroad and my in law's extended family in another continent. My own progeniture as well as my partner have conversation/xmpp setup on their smartphone + a laptop. While I haven't done a whatsapp suicide yet, I told them it was important to have other means of communication in case their phone died, a cloud vendor had issue or their account was suddently banned. I used to be in a group of parents when my kids were in primary school but it was mostly useless and full of intense mums arguing against each other. I barely looked at it. My dance class supposedly has a whatsapp group but I didn't join it and I heard only a few annoying persons post random memes in it. I went once there only to see nobody there and heard it was cancelled afterwards , no big deal. I'd rather do the trip once for nothing than be spammed all year long with stupid memes.

stonogo 9mo ago

This is not a dumbphone and it runs Whatsapp (and any other android app) just fine.

deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]

wiether 9mo ago

I'm an European no-Whatsapp guy and so are my friends that I go on holiday with so no issue. Meanwhile at the last work retreat they did everything through Whatsapp and it was so relaxing to be out of the loop. I just checked with my roommate in the morning to get the planning for the day, and I wandered as I wished. I missed a lot of impromptu events, sure. I also missed a few official events that changed place at the last minute. I went walking on the beach instead. And for the events I was expected to be active in, organizers just made sure that I was where I needed to be when I needed to. So I was able to completely relax and enjoy my stay. In the end everybody was exhausted while I was refreshed like after actual personal holiday! Enjoy your Whatsapp!

mvdwoord 9mo ago
Although I also know a handful of (euro) people who do not have Whatsapp, and a lot of the "missing out" can indeed be absorbed as you described. However, lots of people have a need for Whatsapp which cannot simply be ignored by walking on the beach. It is all about social trade-offs, personally I have almost all apps installed, most of them (or at least the group chats) muted. Some friends are signal only, some prefer telegram etc... sometimes it is just more "social" for you to adapt to a group. If the situation is that others want something from you, you can dictate the forms of communication, however it is quite legit for people to want to be a part of a larger group. No need for snarkiness.

jeroenhd 9mo ago

> I went on holiday with someone a few weeks ago who is toughing it out with a no-Whatsapp dumbphone. He missed the train home because he got locked out of the holiday cottage and couldn't get in touch with anyone. While WhatsApp is definitely the default messenger in many European countries, SMS and calling still exists and works on every phone. It'll cost you extra because of carrier shenanigans, but it's not like nobody has phone numbers anymore because of WhatsApp. You may be left out of group chats if you don't share the same group chat app, but not being able to get into contact with anyone shouldn't happen.

lucb1e 9mo ago
> it's not like nobody has phone numbers anymore because of WhatsApp Except for the companies that say you should use whatsapp to talk to the support desk. That phone number won't be ringing a physical phone that someone picks up when you call it

hulitu 9mo ago

> and couldn't get in touch with anyone. Couldn't he use the phone as a phone ? Or was he in Germany ?