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> Source: company statements Meanwhile they are dumping thousands of cars in public parking lots: https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/byd-australia-accused-o

by alecco 10mo ago

> Source: company statements Meanwhile they are dumping thousands of cars in public parking lots: https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/byd-australia-accused-of-stockpiling-cars-illegally https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/byd-australia-accused-... And BYD sits on a pile of debt they use to pay suppliers expecting ever-increasing sales (Evergrande business model). https://medium.com/@davidsehyeonbaek/a-deep-dive-into-byds-suspicious-financial-engineering-b47381f476e8 https://medium.com/@davidsehyeonbaek/a-deep-dive-into-byds-s...

AnotherGoodName 10mo ago
It seems that BYD are storing cars improperly but there’s nothing in the first link about financial engineering.
bryanlarsen 10mo ago
A car transport holds thousands of ships. Therefore requiring temporary storage for thousands of cars is normal. Even if you count the massive "hidden debt", BYD's debt load is still a small fraction of the big car makers, many of whom hold over $200 billion in debt.
- honeycrispy 10mo ago
  Which car makers? Ford, GMC, Chevrolet are all closer to $100 billion. Tesla holds $13b.
  - chollida1 10mo ago
    https://companiesmarketcap.com/automakers/automakers-with-the-highest-debt/ https://companiesmarketcap.com/automakers/automakers-with-th...
    - thelastgallon 10mo ago
      Wow! Toyota $269B debt vs BYD $5.6B debt
      - woodpanel 10mo ago
        > its Net Debt/EBITDA was around 3.7x, indicating strong earnings cover for its debt TLDR: Toyota can afford it
      - bryanlarsen 10mo ago
        Both figures need to be qualified. 1. The BYD debt is alleged to be undercounted due to treating suppliers as lenders. 2. The Toyota debt includes a large chunk of lease financing. Which sort of doesn't count. But even if you adjust Toyota's down and BYD's up, Toyota's is still significantly larger.
baxtr 10mo ago
A friend of mine works in the chemical industry in Europe. One reason European producers are currently facing challenges is that Chinese producers are dumping chemicals into the global market at heavy discounts. The underlying cause of this is that the Chinese housing market, which previously absorbed almost all chemicals, has effectively stalled (Evergrande, et al.). I wonder whether we're observing a similar effect in the automobile industry as well.
- smallmancontrov 10mo ago
  Yes, but causality is backwards: the Chinese housing market stalled because China took the debt punch-bowl away from housing and gave it to the industrial sector. It's also worth mentioning that loan subsidies play a bigger role in Chinese capital markets: Chinese industry is largely capitalized with state debt rather than private debt/equity or public markets. Zooming out, as a response to Trump's 1st term tariffs China went on a big autarky push by redirecting its citizens' and companies' deposits into a loan bazooka for the industrial sector. We are now seeing the fruits of that. The big questions have to do with (true) profitability and (true) balance sheets: can the new industries service their debts well enough for the government to hold face?
- tokioyoyo 10mo ago
  Are they actually dumping, or extraction/refinement of materials is actually much cheaper in China, so it feels like dumping? Frankly, I don’t mind it, because western companies should also engage in this behaviour, if they can. Sell physical items for cheaper than it takes to produce them! They’re doing it with services and etc. anyways, might as well do it with physical products too.
  - themaninthedark 10mo ago
    How is extraction/refinement of materials much cheaper in China? I have been told they are reaching wage parity with the west, so not labor cost. Reuters agrees with op: https://www.reuters.com/world/china/chinese-goods-dumping-started-before-tariffs-ecb-study-finds-2025-11-11/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/chinese-goods-dumping-st...
toomuchtodo 10mo ago
BYD owns their own fleet of car carriers for export, with the capacity to have ~30k vehicles shipping to other markets at any one time on their vessels. From this piece: > BYD Deliveries outside of China hit 1.05 million in 2025. The company has set a goal to expand overseas sales to between 1.5 million to 1.6 million units in 2026, according to a Citigroup Inc. report in November that cited a meeting with BYD management. Edit: The debt is irrelevant, China isn’t America. They’ll nationalize and inflate away any institutional debt or wipe it out, but still have a third of the world’s manufacturing capacity. Tesla exists on vibes, Chinese EV makers build, for example. jmyeet’s comment mostly nails this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46456020 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46456020 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46424124 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46424124 (citations) (global light vehicle TAM is ~90M units/year, and Chinese EV automakers are going to soak the market with their production capacity)
- faitswulff 10mo ago
  > They’ll nationalize and inflate away any institutional debt or wipe it out This is just the reverse, actually, China isn’t afraid to go so far as to jail CEOs. There is no such thing as too big to fail in China, and all the Chinese domestic companies know it. The bailout playbook is a western thing.
  - toomuchtodo 10mo ago
    China has been performing debt swaps with local governments to clean up their balance sheets [1], so used as an example. Agree with all of your comment. People make the mistake that China plays by artificial US capital market rules around profit and debt; they do not. They optimize for physical world success, not line go up. [1] Why China Is Hoping $1.6 Trillion Can Fix Its Hidden Debt Problem - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-04-16/china-economy-can-1-6-trillion-help-solve-xi-s-hidden-debt-problem https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-04-16/china-eco... | https://archive.today/HsaHV https://archive.today/HsaHV - April 16th, 2025
    - faitswulff 10mo ago
SapporoChris 10mo ago
regarding: "Meanwhile they are dumping thousands of cars in public parking lots" Sure you can post a speculative article, but this link is far more informative. https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/byd-car-park-mystery-solved-99900 https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/byd-car-park-mystery-s... It doesn't really appear to be anything of grand significance.
thesmtsolver2 10mo ago
Also their abysmal human rights record https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/10/human-rights-ranking-electric-vehicle-industry/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/10/human-rights-...
bigfatkitten 10mo ago
Dumping notwithstanding, they're still selling cars into the Australian market in enormous numbers. Four of the top ten EVs sold this year are BYD, as are the top two PHEVs. https://www.drive.com.au/news/australias-best-selling-cars-by-powertrain-so-far-this-year/ https://www.drive.com.au/news/australias-best-selling-cars-b...
bigfatkitten 10mo ago
Dumping notwithstanding, BYD is still selling cars into the Australian market in enormous numbers. Four of the top ten EVs sold this year are BYD, as are the top two PHEVs. If you account for the fact that Australian market Teslas are built in China, then China is producing 8 of the top 10 EVs. https://www.drive.com.au/news/australias-best-selling-cars-by-powertrain-so-far-this-year/ https://www.drive.com.au/news/australias-best-selling-cars-b...
- dalyons 10mo ago
  Which is direct evidence for what would happen if they were allowed to sell fairly into the US and Europe. The future of cars is Chinese, the US automakers can’t survive on protectionism forever
  - ehnto 10mo ago
    Not that I am for it, but why not? If no other cars enter the market, or they're forced to be uncompetitive, then what choice would consumers have?
nl 10mo ago
They have $5.6B in debt, around the same as Mazda and Polestar and roughly half Tesla's $13B. https://companiesmarketcap.com/automakers/automakers-with-the-highest-debt/ https://companiesmarketcap.com/automakers/automakers-with-th... And vast parking lots full of cars isn't dumping, it where they put them before sending them to dealers: > its parking areas are still brimming with new BYDs fresh from arriving at nearby Port Kembla ahead of their delivery to BYD dealers.
ulfw 10mo ago
You write and I quote: "Meanwhile they are dumping thousands of cars" Your own link to proof your quote says: "Hundreds of cars alleged to be illegally stored at a NSW fun park"

by alecco 10mo ago

AnotherGoodName 10mo ago

It seems that BYD are storing cars improperly but there’s nothing in the first link about financial engineering.

bryanlarsen 10mo ago

A car transport holds thousands of ships. Therefore requiring temporary storage for thousands of cars is normal. Even if you count the massive "hidden debt", BYD's debt load is still a small fraction of the big car makers, many of whom hold over $200 billion in debt.

honeycrispy 10mo ago
Which car makers? Ford, GMC, Chevrolet are all closer to $100 billion. Tesla holds $13b.
- chollida1 10mo ago
  https://companiesmarketcap.com/automakers/automakers-with-the-highest-debt/ https://companiesmarketcap.com/automakers/automakers-with-th...
  - thelastgallon 10mo ago
    Wow! Toyota $269B debt vs BYD $5.6B debt
    - woodpanel 10mo ago
      > its Net Debt/EBITDA was around 3.7x, indicating strong earnings cover for its debt TLDR: Toyota can afford it
    - bryanlarsen 10mo ago
      Both figures need to be qualified. 1. The BYD debt is alleged to be undercounted due to treating suppliers as lenders. 2. The Toyota debt includes a large chunk of lease financing. Which sort of doesn't count. But even if you adjust Toyota's down and BYD's up, Toyota's is still significantly larger.

baxtr 10mo ago

A friend of mine works in the chemical industry in Europe. One reason European producers are currently facing challenges is that Chinese producers are dumping chemicals into the global market at heavy discounts. The underlying cause of this is that the Chinese housing market, which previously absorbed almost all chemicals, has effectively stalled (Evergrande, et al.). I wonder whether we're observing a similar effect in the automobile industry as well.

smallmancontrov 10mo ago
Yes, but causality is backwards: the Chinese housing market stalled because China took the debt punch-bowl away from housing and gave it to the industrial sector. It's also worth mentioning that loan subsidies play a bigger role in Chinese capital markets: Chinese industry is largely capitalized with state debt rather than private debt/equity or public markets. Zooming out, as a response to Trump's 1st term tariffs China went on a big autarky push by redirecting its citizens' and companies' deposits into a loan bazooka for the industrial sector. We are now seeing the fruits of that. The big questions have to do with (true) profitability and (true) balance sheets: can the new industries service their debts well enough for the government to hold face?
tokioyoyo 10mo ago
Are they actually dumping, or extraction/refinement of materials is actually much cheaper in China, so it feels like dumping? Frankly, I don’t mind it, because western companies should also engage in this behaviour, if they can. Sell physical items for cheaper than it takes to produce them! They’re doing it with services and etc. anyways, might as well do it with physical products too.
- themaninthedark 10mo ago
  How is extraction/refinement of materials much cheaper in China? I have been told they are reaching wage parity with the west, so not labor cost. Reuters agrees with op: https://www.reuters.com/world/china/chinese-goods-dumping-started-before-tariffs-ecb-study-finds-2025-11-11/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/chinese-goods-dumping-st...

toomuchtodo 10mo ago

BYD owns their own fleet of car carriers for export, with the capacity to have ~30k vehicles shipping to other markets at any one time on their vessels. From this piece: > BYD Deliveries outside of China hit 1.05 million in 2025. The company has set a goal to expand overseas sales to between 1.5 million to 1.6 million units in 2026, according to a Citigroup Inc. report in November that cited a meeting with BYD management. Edit: The debt is irrelevant, China isn’t America. They’ll nationalize and inflate away any institutional debt or wipe it out, but still have a third of the world’s manufacturing capacity. Tesla exists on vibes, Chinese EV makers build, for example. jmyeet’s comment mostly nails this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46456020 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46456020 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46424124 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46424124 (citations) (global light vehicle TAM is ~90M units/year, and Chinese EV automakers are going to soak the market with their production capacity)

faitswulff 10mo ago
> They’ll nationalize and inflate away any institutional debt or wipe it out This is just the reverse, actually, China isn’t afraid to go so far as to jail CEOs. There is no such thing as too big to fail in China, and all the Chinese domestic companies know it. The bailout playbook is a western thing.
- toomuchtodo 10mo ago
  China has been performing debt swaps with local governments to clean up their balance sheets [1], so used as an example. Agree with all of your comment. People make the mistake that China plays by artificial US capital market rules around profit and debt; they do not. They optimize for physical world success, not line go up. [1] Why China Is Hoping $1.6 Trillion Can Fix Its Hidden Debt Problem - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-04-16/china-economy-can-1-6-trillion-help-solve-xi-s-hidden-debt-problem https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-04-16/china-eco... | https://archive.today/HsaHV https://archive.today/HsaHV - April 16th, 2025
  - faitswulff 10mo ago

SapporoChris 10mo ago

regarding: "Meanwhile they are dumping thousands of cars in public parking lots" Sure you can post a speculative article, but this link is far more informative. https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/byd-car-park-mystery-solved-99900 https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/byd-car-park-mystery-s... It doesn't really appear to be anything of grand significance.

thesmtsolver2 10mo ago

Also their abysmal human rights record https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/10/human-rights-ranking-electric-vehicle-industry/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/10/human-rights-...

bigfatkitten 10mo ago

Dumping notwithstanding, they're still selling cars into the Australian market in enormous numbers. Four of the top ten EVs sold this year are BYD, as are the top two PHEVs. https://www.drive.com.au/news/australias-best-selling-cars-by-powertrain-so-far-this-year/ https://www.drive.com.au/news/australias-best-selling-cars-b...

bigfatkitten 10mo ago

Dumping notwithstanding, BYD is still selling cars into the Australian market in enormous numbers. Four of the top ten EVs sold this year are BYD, as are the top two PHEVs. If you account for the fact that Australian market Teslas are built in China, then China is producing 8 of the top 10 EVs. https://www.drive.com.au/news/australias-best-selling-cars-by-powertrain-so-far-this-year/ https://www.drive.com.au/news/australias-best-selling-cars-b...

dalyons 10mo ago
Which is direct evidence for what would happen if they were allowed to sell fairly into the US and Europe. The future of cars is Chinese, the US automakers can’t survive on protectionism forever
- ehnto 10mo ago
  Not that I am for it, but why not? If no other cars enter the market, or they're forced to be uncompetitive, then what choice would consumers have?

nl 10mo ago

They have $5.6B in debt, around the same as Mazda and Polestar and roughly half Tesla's $13B. https://companiesmarketcap.com/automakers/automakers-with-the-highest-debt/ https://companiesmarketcap.com/automakers/automakers-with-th... And vast parking lots full of cars isn't dumping, it where they put them before sending them to dealers: > its parking areas are still brimming with new BYDs fresh from arriving at nearby Port Kembla ahead of their delivery to BYD dealers.

ulfw 10mo ago

You write and I quote: "Meanwhile they are dumping thousands of cars" Your own link to proof your quote says: "Hundreds of cars alleged to be illegally stored at a NSW fun park"