9 ms·

Personally I think that defensive technology like this is fantastic. It means that innocent citizens will be protected from constant bombardment or thread of bo

by elcritch 10mo ago

Personally I think that defensive technology like this is fantastic. It means that innocent citizens will be protected from constant bombardment or thread of bombardment by cheap mass produced rockets or drones. Israeli civilians have faced bombardment by tens of thousands of rockets from Gaza for the last 20 years [1]. Outside the Middle East there's many areas threatened by combatants with similar cheap missiles. Perhaps Ukraine is an obvious one. We're seeing rises in conflicts across parts of Africa, Cambodia/Thailand, Pakistan/India. Many governments are looking into buying these to protect their countries. This technology hopefully can protect populations from destabilizing forces funded on the cheap by foreign powers. Machine guns changed warfare [2] and drones have been a similar massive change in warfare making it cheaper and easier to attack and destabalize regions. Though of course there's downsides as well [3]. 1: https://www.mideastjournal.org/post/how-many-rockets-fired-at-israel https://www.mideastjournal.org/post/how-many-rockets-fired-a... 2: https://online.norwich.edu/online/about/resource-library/how-machine-gun-changed-combat-during-world-war-i https://online.norwich.edu/online/about/resource-library/how... 3: https://claritywithmichaeloren.substack.com/p/iron-dome-part-one https://claritywithmichaeloren.substack.com/p/iron-dome-part...

JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
> It means that innocent citizens will be protected from constant bombardment or thread of bombardment by cheap mass produced rockets or drones One could also hope that e.g. Iran starts focusing its economy on the wellbeing of its people versus playing regional cop to America’s world police.
- xenospn 10mo ago
  They haven't done so in decades. You think they'll start now?
  - JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
    > You think they'll start now? No. But I can hope.
- breppp 10mo ago
  They have economic related riots starting as we speak so the progressive end result (a few riots down the line) might either be this or regime change
  - steve-atx-7600 10mo ago
    Riots are going to end predictably badly when those participating do not have guns. Just like a couple years ago other there. Probably a lesson here.
    - breppp 10mo ago
      It's usually progressive until the people with guns are too afraid to shoot, as in the fall of USSR Although I will believe there are a few more iterations before this regime falls
      - anovikov 10mo ago
        In the fall of USSR, no one was "afraid to shoot". No one was motivated to do so. Or do anything for the completely failed system that no longer worked for anyone, inside or outside it. By 1991, no one cared for good ol' Union. That's the only reason it died so peacefully in its sleep with virtually no violence - it was so rotten, no one could care for its survival.
        steveBK123 10mo ago
        And indeed that is how the Shah fell in Iran - the regime was so rotten that even the military elite no longer saw it as worth defending. Will the current regime face the same eventually?
        anovikov 10mo ago
        Just like in Soviet Union's case, trick isn't how to topple a regime, a sufficiently rotten one will fall by itself, but how to make sure the country that remains is sufficiently neutered to not become a menace again. It was simply overlooked by the West in 1991: they foolishly fell under the influence of their own propaganda and believed that Communism was the problem and with it gone, there was nothing left to worry about. As it turns out, Russia itself, was the problem. It was easy to solve in 1991 and extremely hard now. Hopefully it won't be repeated with Iran.
jmyeet 10mo ago
Three thoughts: 1. Just to repeat myself from another comment on this thread, there is no such thing as a defensive weapon. Were it not for the various missile shields, the Israeli state wouldn't act with wanton abandon against its own citizens and its neighbours. All of the various war crimes and terror attacks are a direct consequence of the effectiveness of a "defensive" missile shield. Let me pose this question to you: if these were purely defensive technologies, why don't we give them to everyone, including the Palestinians? and 2. Israel has already ruled out giving Ukraine the anti-missile (and assumedly anti-drone) defenses [1]; and 3. Many people, yourself included it seems, need to examine these conflicts around the world through the lens of historical materialism. Take the genocide and conflict in Sudan. The SAF are arguably the ones with the "cheap rockets" here. Should we be giving the RSF anti-drone technology? The RSF are backed by the UAE using US weapons. Why? To loot Sudanese gold. Why did Russia invade Ukraine? Territory, access to the Black Sea, resources and to create a land bridge to Crimea that had otherwise become extremely expensive to maintain as a colonial outpost. Like, just look at a map of controlled territory. But why is it in a stalemate? In part because Russia is a nuclear power but also because the West is unwilling to let Ukraine do the one thing it could do to defend itself properly and that is to attack Russian energy infrastructure. Despite the sanctions, Russia is still allowed to sell oil and gas to places like Hungary, Slovakia, France, Belgium, India and China. Back to the Middle East, we have Yemen, who was devastated by war and genocide at the hands of another US ally, Saudi Arabia. The solution to these conflicts isn't more weapons, not even "defensive weapons". It's solving the underlying economic conditions that created that conflict in the first place. [1]: https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-rules-out-giving-ukraine-iron-dome-anti-missile-system/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-rules-out-giving-ukr...
- _DeadFred_ 10mo ago
  'people shouldn't have locks on their doors, they discourage them from improving society' 'moving from wooden shingles allows society to be negligent when it comes to fire/forestry management and makes the world worse'
- appreciatorBus 10mo ago
  > The solution to these conflicts isn't more weapons, not even "defensive weapons". It's solving the underlying economic conditions that created that conflict in the first place. Collectivism will not save us. The day after we abolish markets, prices, and capitalism, there will be as many disagreements about resource allocation as there were the day before. Some of those disagreements will spiral into conflict.
recroad 10mo ago
Data says it’s the Palestinians that need defenses, not the ones doing 95% of the killing. https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
- falcor84 10mo ago
  What kind of argument is that? All civilians should be protected.
- Gibbon1 10mo ago
  Palestinians patrons need to tell them they aren't going to win militarily against the Israeli's
  - delichon 10mo ago
    Not today, but the fertily rate is 2.9 in Israel and 3.9 in Gaza. Even if demographics isn't quite destiny it's generally the way to bet.
    - Gibbon1 10mo ago
      Just a reminder pushing people to start wars they can't win is shitty.
      - delichon 10mo ago
        To me those stats suggest that the Palestinians have a bigger advantage in making love than war. How do you think they encourage war?
        cindyllm 10mo ago
        [dead]
        Gibbon1 9mo ago
        You encourage war and murder. What you just said is that while the Palestinians in Gaza aren't strong enough now to kill and enslave the Jews and Arabs in Israel they will be in the future. And once they are they will do that. And the thought of that makes you hopeful.
testing43523 10mo ago
Except when the bombardment comes from space. Golden Dome is planning large constellations of lasers like this in constant orbit, as well as hypersonic warheads able to target any spot on Earth within 90 seconds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Dome_(missile_defense_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Dome_(missile_defense_s... It's explicitly an offensive technology (and of course Musk has been involved)
- JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
  The only similarity between Golden Dome and Iron Beam is in their branding. An orbital conventional launch platform shares almost nothing with a land-based small-arms directed-energy one.
- choult 10mo ago
  It's Trump's version of Reagan's Star Wars - it's all bluster that we will not see any result of, and it will be quietly shelved by future governments.
  - mikeyouse 10mo ago
    Only after billions (trillions?) of dollars have been doled out to favored allies of the President though.
    - testing43523 10mo ago
      Elon Musk already made a few $B on it so far, but he clearly has sights on $T.
solidsnack9000 10mo ago
The economics have been favorable to attackers for a while. Maybe precision systems like this can help to shift things in favor of the defenders.
- PaulHoule 10mo ago
  Lasers need a straight path through clean air. Israel is a favorable location because Tel Aviv gets 200 or so sunny days a year, but if there are clouds this won’t work or will have to fire at the last moment. As for drones, they’ll fly lower to the ground to reduce the line of sight.
ThePowerOfFuet 10mo ago
>Israeli civilians have faced bombardment by tens of thousands of rockets from Gaza for the last 20 years [1]. There's a reason that's been happening, and it's not technical in nature. Technical solutions are thus unlikely to successfully address the root cause.
- scottoreily 10mo ago
  [flagged]
  - thrance 10mo ago
    [flagged]
  - deleted 10mo ago
    [deleted]
  - jampekka 10mo ago
    This applies to Israel as well.
  - netsharc 10mo ago
    You'd be amazed at the amount of radicalization Israeli society gets if you'd bother to look with unbiased eyes. Attacking aid trucks? Spitting at Christians, even tourists? Stealing houses of West Bank people? (Oh must be for that Lebensraum) Maybe that's one goal you should add to your 2026 list...
    - FridayoLeary 10mo ago
      [flagged]
      - snickerbockers 10mo ago
        >Don't even start with what they did with the Indians. At least we paid for our own damn genocide. It takes a ot of nerve to complain about americans having a "blind spot" on a country whose military receives at least 15% of its revenue from American taxpayers who are compelled against their will.
newsclues 10mo ago
Part of the issue is that it makes it more possible to launch a first strike attack without fear of suffering blows in retaliation, and gives one side of conflict the overmatch that enables leaders to start a conflict thinking they can win without repercussions
- newsclues 10mo ago
  For the downvotes https://www.armscontrol.org/act/2023-09/features/delusions-and-dangers-missile-defense https://www.armscontrol.org/act/2023-09/features/delusions-a...
  - jameshilliard 9mo ago
    Missile defense doesn't really help much for mutually assured destruction scenarios, for Israel it makes more sense due most conflicts they are involved in being much more asymmetric.
thinkcontext 10mo ago
Colombian narcos have been using drones against the state, they tally 58 dead, 400 injured. This is a big problem that is going to get a lot bigger quickly. Colombia likely can't afford many fancy defenses and anyway they are likely to be of limited effectiveness where there are no front line. https://archive.md/pW3kL https://archive.md/pW3kL WSJ
AbuAssar 10mo ago
you have the audacity to play the victim card for Israil after the whole world -including you- witnessed live and in HD for over two years what they have done to Gaza poeple?
- za3faran 10mo ago
  The hypocrisy is astounding. Even to this very day, how many Gazans have been slaughtered since the so called "ceasefire"? No one bats an eye.
- yoavm 10mo ago
  Do you think Israeli civilians shouldn't be able to defend themselves from Hamas' rockets? If yes - why? If not - what exactly is it that you find so problematic with the parent post?
  - Rakshith 10mo ago
    [dead]
- LorenPechtel 10mo ago
  What you don't understand is the carnage in Gaza is self-inflicted. Hamas attacked knowing what would happen. And knowing that every dead Palestinian was a weapon to use against Israel in the propaganda war. Thus they did everything they could get away with to maximize dead Palestinians.
deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]
sporkxrocket 9mo ago
Palestinians have a right to defend themselves. Israel is an illegitimate state, there is not "defensive technology" as far as they're concerned. Anything that perpetuates Zionism, is by definition offensive and a violation of human rights.

JumpCrisscross 10mo ago

> It means that innocent citizens will be protected from constant bombardment or thread of bombardment by cheap mass produced rockets or drones One could also hope that e.g. Iran starts focusing its economy on the wellbeing of its people versus playing regional cop to America’s world police.

xenospn 10mo ago
They haven't done so in decades. You think they'll start now?
- JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
  > You think they'll start now? No. But I can hope.
breppp 10mo ago
They have economic related riots starting as we speak so the progressive end result (a few riots down the line) might either be this or regime change
- steve-atx-7600 10mo ago
  Riots are going to end predictably badly when those participating do not have guns. Just like a couple years ago other there. Probably a lesson here.
  - breppp 10mo ago
    It's usually progressive until the people with guns are too afraid to shoot, as in the fall of USSR Although I will believe there are a few more iterations before this regime falls
    - anovikov 10mo ago
      In the fall of USSR, no one was "afraid to shoot". No one was motivated to do so. Or do anything for the completely failed system that no longer worked for anyone, inside or outside it. By 1991, no one cared for good ol' Union. That's the only reason it died so peacefully in its sleep with virtually no violence - it was so rotten, no one could care for its survival.
      - steveBK123 10mo ago
        And indeed that is how the Shah fell in Iran - the regime was so rotten that even the military elite no longer saw it as worth defending. Will the current regime face the same eventually?
        anovikov 10mo ago
        Just like in Soviet Union's case, trick isn't how to topple a regime, a sufficiently rotten one will fall by itself, but how to make sure the country that remains is sufficiently neutered to not become a menace again. It was simply overlooked by the West in 1991: they foolishly fell under the influence of their own propaganda and believed that Communism was the problem and with it gone, there was nothing left to worry about. As it turns out, Russia itself, was the problem. It was easy to solve in 1991 and extremely hard now. Hopefully it won't be repeated with Iran.

jmyeet 10mo ago

Three thoughts: 1. Just to repeat myself from another comment on this thread, there is no such thing as a defensive weapon. Were it not for the various missile shields, the Israeli state wouldn't act with wanton abandon against its own citizens and its neighbours. All of the various war crimes and terror attacks are a direct consequence of the effectiveness of a "defensive" missile shield. Let me pose this question to you: if these were purely defensive technologies, why don't we give them to everyone, including the Palestinians? and 2. Israel has already ruled out giving Ukraine the anti-missile (and assumedly anti-drone) defenses [1]; and 3. Many people, yourself included it seems, need to examine these conflicts around the world through the lens of historical materialism. Take the genocide and conflict in Sudan. The SAF are arguably the ones with the "cheap rockets" here. Should we be giving the RSF anti-drone technology? The RSF are backed by the UAE using US weapons. Why? To loot Sudanese gold. Why did Russia invade Ukraine? Territory, access to the Black Sea, resources and to create a land bridge to Crimea that had otherwise become extremely expensive to maintain as a colonial outpost. Like, just look at a map of controlled territory. But why is it in a stalemate? In part because Russia is a nuclear power but also because the West is unwilling to let Ukraine do the one thing it could do to defend itself properly and that is to attack Russian energy infrastructure. Despite the sanctions, Russia is still allowed to sell oil and gas to places like Hungary, Slovakia, France, Belgium, India and China. Back to the Middle East, we have Yemen, who was devastated by war and genocide at the hands of another US ally, Saudi Arabia. The solution to these conflicts isn't more weapons, not even "defensive weapons". It's solving the underlying economic conditions that created that conflict in the first place. [1]: https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-rules-out-giving-ukraine-iron-dome-anti-missile-system/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-rules-out-giving-ukr...

_DeadFred_ 10mo ago
'people shouldn't have locks on their doors, they discourage them from improving society' 'moving from wooden shingles allows society to be negligent when it comes to fire/forestry management and makes the world worse'
appreciatorBus 10mo ago
> The solution to these conflicts isn't more weapons, not even "defensive weapons". It's solving the underlying economic conditions that created that conflict in the first place. Collectivism will not save us. The day after we abolish markets, prices, and capitalism, there will be as many disagreements about resource allocation as there were the day before. Some of those disagreements will spiral into conflict.

recroad 10mo ago

Data says it’s the Palestinians that need defenses, not the ones doing 95% of the killing. https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

falcor84 10mo ago
What kind of argument is that? All civilians should be protected.
Gibbon1 10mo ago
Palestinians patrons need to tell them they aren't going to win militarily against the Israeli's
- delichon 10mo ago
  Not today, but the fertily rate is 2.9 in Israel and 3.9 in Gaza. Even if demographics isn't quite destiny it's generally the way to bet.
  - Gibbon1 10mo ago
    Just a reminder pushing people to start wars they can't win is shitty.
    - delichon 10mo ago
      To me those stats suggest that the Palestinians have a bigger advantage in making love than war. How do you think they encourage war?
      - cindyllm 10mo ago
        [dead]
      - Gibbon1 9mo ago
        You encourage war and murder. What you just said is that while the Palestinians in Gaza aren't strong enough now to kill and enslave the Jews and Arabs in Israel they will be in the future. And once they are they will do that. And the thought of that makes you hopeful.

testing43523 10mo ago

Except when the bombardment comes from space. Golden Dome is planning large constellations of lasers like this in constant orbit, as well as hypersonic warheads able to target any spot on Earth within 90 seconds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Dome_(missile_defense_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Dome_(missile_defense_s... It's explicitly an offensive technology (and of course Musk has been involved)

JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
The only similarity between Golden Dome and Iron Beam is in their branding. An orbital conventional launch platform shares almost nothing with a land-based small-arms directed-energy one.
choult 10mo ago
It's Trump's version of Reagan's Star Wars - it's all bluster that we will not see any result of, and it will be quietly shelved by future governments.
- mikeyouse 10mo ago
  Only after billions (trillions?) of dollars have been doled out to favored allies of the President though.
  - testing43523 10mo ago
    Elon Musk already made a few $B on it so far, but he clearly has sights on $T.

solidsnack9000 10mo ago

The economics have been favorable to attackers for a while. Maybe precision systems like this can help to shift things in favor of the defenders.

PaulHoule 10mo ago
Lasers need a straight path through clean air. Israel is a favorable location because Tel Aviv gets 200 or so sunny days a year, but if there are clouds this won’t work or will have to fire at the last moment. As for drones, they’ll fly lower to the ground to reduce the line of sight.

ThePowerOfFuet 10mo ago

>Israeli civilians have faced bombardment by tens of thousands of rockets from Gaza for the last 20 years [1]. There's a reason that's been happening, and it's not technical in nature. Technical solutions are thus unlikely to successfully address the root cause.

scottoreily 10mo ago
[flagged]
- thrance 10mo ago
  [flagged]
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]
- jampekka 10mo ago
  This applies to Israel as well.
- netsharc 10mo ago
  You'd be amazed at the amount of radicalization Israeli society gets if you'd bother to look with unbiased eyes. Attacking aid trucks? Spitting at Christians, even tourists? Stealing houses of West Bank people? (Oh must be for that Lebensraum) Maybe that's one goal you should add to your 2026 list...
  - FridayoLeary 10mo ago
    [flagged]
    - snickerbockers 10mo ago
      >Don't even start with what they did with the Indians. At least we paid for our own damn genocide. It takes a ot of nerve to complain about americans having a "blind spot" on a country whose military receives at least 15% of its revenue from American taxpayers who are compelled against their will.

newsclues 10mo ago

Part of the issue is that it makes it more possible to launch a first strike attack without fear of suffering blows in retaliation, and gives one side of conflict the overmatch that enables leaders to start a conflict thinking they can win without repercussions

newsclues 10mo ago
For the downvotes https://www.armscontrol.org/act/2023-09/features/delusions-and-dangers-missile-defense https://www.armscontrol.org/act/2023-09/features/delusions-a...
- jameshilliard 9mo ago
  Missile defense doesn't really help much for mutually assured destruction scenarios, for Israel it makes more sense due most conflicts they are involved in being much more asymmetric.

thinkcontext 10mo ago

Colombian narcos have been using drones against the state, they tally 58 dead, 400 injured. This is a big problem that is going to get a lot bigger quickly. Colombia likely can't afford many fancy defenses and anyway they are likely to be of limited effectiveness where there are no front line. https://archive.md/pW3kL https://archive.md/pW3kL WSJ

AbuAssar 10mo ago

you have the audacity to play the victim card for Israil after the whole world -including you- witnessed live and in HD for over two years what they have done to Gaza poeple?

za3faran 10mo ago
The hypocrisy is astounding. Even to this very day, how many Gazans have been slaughtered since the so called "ceasefire"? No one bats an eye.
yoavm 10mo ago
Do you think Israeli civilians shouldn't be able to defend themselves from Hamas' rockets? If yes - why? If not - what exactly is it that you find so problematic with the parent post?
- Rakshith 10mo ago
  [dead]
LorenPechtel 10mo ago
What you don't understand is the carnage in Gaza is self-inflicted. Hamas attacked knowing what would happen. And knowing that every dead Palestinian was a weapon to use against Israel in the propaganda war. Thus they did everything they could get away with to maximize dead Palestinians.

deleted 10mo ago

[deleted]

sporkxrocket 9mo ago

Palestinians have a right to defend themselves. Israel is an illegitimate state, there is not "defensive technology" as far as they're concerned. Anything that perpetuates Zionism, is by definition offensive and a violation of human rights.