8 ms·

The crux of the matter is that even if one values upgradability and repairability, neither is a frequent need for practically anybody. Reliable machines rarely

The crux of the matter is that even if one values upgradability and repairability, neither is a frequent need for practically anybody. Reliable machines rarely need repairs outside of owner mistreatment, and most people I know who are technically capable enough to care about upgrading generally do it maybe once every 4-6 years, by which point hardware has usually advanced far enough that buying a new laptop is easy to justify. So while upgradability and repairability are great to have, their material impact on day to day user experience is minimal, except maybe for people who have a tendency to severely underspec their initial hardware purchases. On the other hand, things like chassis rigidity, cooling performance, fan noise, and battery life being subpar are constant reminders that you spent a pretty penny on a laptop that's not meeting your needs. The reality may be that wanting a laptop that's well rounded and competent across the board AND repairable+upgradable is akin to having your cake and eating it too, but that doesn't stop people from wanting it anyway. As an aside, I believe that Framework could probably get closer to that ideal if they unchained themselves from the port module idea. Yes it's cool, but it forces all sorts of design compromises that otherwise wouldn't be necessary, and I'd bet that something like 80-90% of Framework buyers would be just as happy if changing ports required opening up the chassis, swapping out side plates, and doing a little bit of internal wiring.

MarsIronPI 10mo ago
This. My idea of a repairable laptop is the Thinkpads up until around 2015. And I absolutely agree that the port modules forces Framework to limit the number of ports to the point that I'd hesitate to purchase one because I'd be swapping ports all the time.
- simfree 10mo ago
  The replacement parts aren't cheap either as Framework has very little used parts market. I can rehouse a Thinkpad or most other high volume laptops for a quarter or less the cost of a Framework, making the total lifetime cost much lower. Framework will sell you a new housing with screen for $399, but at that point I can buy an 11th gen Thinkpad for half the cost. I want the economics to work, but even with free labor it makes no sense.
- makeitdouble 10mo ago
  Have you ever tried dealing with Lenovo for parts or repairs ? My only experience with them was bleak and I never heard good stories on this front.
  - MarsIronPI 10mo ago
    No, I've always gotten my Thinkpads and parts from eBay and other second-hand marketplaces.
- myself248 10mo ago
  As the owner of a Framework 13, you're exactly right. It only has 4 ports, at least one of which is pretty much always for charging, and let's face it you will always want a USB-A, so that leaves two. If you want to be ready for HDMI output or SD cards, that occupies them both, better hope you didn't want another USB-A or whatever. Oh, and there's a permanent headphone jack, for some reason. Compare to my last Thinkpad (a T460), which had a charger jack, three USB-A, HDMI, RJ45, MiniDP, a headphone jack, and an SD slot. I didn't need to swap adapters because everything was just already there. (I never used the MiniDP or the headphone jack, but everything else, yeah.) If the Framework had 2 or 3 permanent USB-C's in addition to the 4 swappable ports, or just had 6 or 7 swappable ports, I'd be much happier. But as it sits, carrying a baggie of modules in my backpack is just silly. That said, it can do something super cool: Charge from either side. Because there are USB-C ports on both the left and right, and any of them can be a power inlet, I'm presently laying on my side in bed, with the charger plugged into the "top" side, i.e. the one that's not leaning into the mattress. When I roll over, I'll just move the cord. When I was shopping for my "next" (present) machine, I was able to find one Ideapad that claimed it had USB-C ports on both sides, but it was eye-wateringly expensive. I couldn't get Lenovo's site to tell me which cheaper models had this, and their support people couldn't produce such a list either. Finally in frustration, I decided to give my money to Framework instead, and the either-side charging is a trick I rely on frequently. My current load-out is two USB-C and two USB-A, one of each on each side.
  - dagmx 10mo ago
    Quite a few laptops support dual side charging fwiw. It’s definitely useful but not all that rare.
    - bloak 10mo ago
      I first saw that feature on a cheap Chromebook and was a bit surprised. But I suppose the more expensive machines have great battery life (for the first year or so) and the people who own them are too cool to use a cable.
    - myself248 10mo ago
      Right, but there's no way to search for them, that I've found. Even if a machine has multiple USB-C ports, the only way to ascertain that they're on both sides is to find photos of both sides. It's not like a specific amount of RAM that you can just click a checkbox to filter by. And then you have to assume that the photos depict the actual model and variant you're getting, which is not always the case. It'd be a hard row to hoe, to return a machine based on "it had all the same ports it claimed, but in different places"...
paulddraper 10mo ago
This is an insane take. The number of MacBooks I’ve seen shipped back to repair center for weeks, over a single non functional key, is astonishing.
- Aurornis 10mo ago
  As opposed to taking the part out of a Framework laptop, shipping it back to the repair center for weeks, and then reinstalling it when it comes back? Or if time is of the essence, ordering the brand new part to skip the repair process and then installing it yourself when it arrives later? Contrast this with the amount of time my coworker spent hauling his laptop charger everywhere and obsessively topping up his laptop battery while traveling because the battery drain during sleep was a problem at that time. This added extra wear and tear on the battery, of course, but I guess he could replace it himself?
  - paulddraper 10mo ago
    You just order a new key, and install it. And not have the downtime. (You can remap key or use an external keyboard.) And yeah, replacing the battery is easy. Not a Framework, but I replaced a laptop battery some years ago, was glad I had that option, because lithium battery lifetime always decreases eventually. I’m old enough to remember when many phones and some laptops had removable batteries. Switch to a spare, and boom instantly full, you didn’t need to tether it to a wall.
- cosmic_cheese 10mo ago
  But how common of a problem is this, now that Apple is well clear of the butterfly keyboard mess? I haven’t had to get my MacBooks repaired even once in the past decade and change, and that’s despite two of the machines I’d used during that time being the butterfly/touch bar models! That being said, yes it’d be better if such a repair were quick and easy, but I’m not sure that it’s so valuable as to justify battery life being around a third what my MacBooks get or wrestling a buggy, immature BIOS and all the issues that come with that. A laptop that’s bad at being a laptop isn’t worth a whole lot…
idontwantthis 10mo ago
Also the fact that hardware is pretty stagnant and upgrades aren’t that important anymore for most stuff. I bought an Acer in 2012 and over the next 5 years I upgraded the RAM from 4 gb to 8gb and swapped the hdd for an ssd. Those were enormous upgrades! Then I bought a MacBook Pro with 16gb and an ssd and didn’t need another computer until this year (still didn’t NEED one but I found a good deal on a 4 year old MBP).
makeitdouble 10mo ago
> hardware has usually advanced far enough That's not what we're experiencing. Screens have seen improvements, but not in a significant way within these 4-6 years. Keyboards haven't improved leaps and bounds. Track pads either. Laptop casings haven't seen innovation either. The only thing that significantly changes is the motherboard, which is not nothing, but replacing it independently makes sense to me. > port module idea. That's one of the best idea they have! You might have bought a laptop with 4 USB ports 5 years ago, only to realize you'd be so much happier with two USB-A. Or you realize you never ever use the SD Card slot. Well, you'd fix that easily on a Framework, not on any other laptop. I wish I could do that right now. The only reason I haven't one of their laptop is their stubborn refusal to ship outside a dozen or so countries.
- cosmic_cheese 10mo ago
  I’ll contest that on the screens. Mini-LED backlighting is a substantial step up for contrast, backlights in general have gotten brighter, IPS panels have gained notability better color gamuts and contrast, and OLED panels are now widely available even in budget machines. The screens on the M1-M4 MBPs look quite visibly nicer than those MBPs used up until 2019. Those painfully awful 1366x768 TN panels that used to be commonplace have finally mostly been ousted, too. As a result, chances are that the laptop you buy at nearly any price bracket in 2026 has a screen that’s moderately to dramatically better than was found in laptops in the same bracket up until 2020-2022. The problems with the port modules are that due to their dimensions, the number of ports you can have on the laptop at once is small and the big voids in the chassis required for them to be able to slot in greatly weakens it and makes it more prone to flexing. With an alternative design that uses internal port boards (still hooked up via USB-C) with matching exterior side plates, you could easily do something like 3x USB-C, 1x USB-A on the left and 1x Ethernet, 1x USB-C, 1x USB-A, 1x SD/microSD on the right in the same space as would’ve been taken by the modules for half as many ports. This would suit most users perfectly out of the box, precluding the need for swapping for many, but for those who need one side to be full USB-C or multiple NICs or a cell modem or something that’s still possible.
  - makeitdouble 10mo ago
goku12 10mo ago
> The crux of the matter is that even if one values upgradability and repairability, neither is a frequent need for practically anybody. Judging reparability and serviceability the same way as you do with other features is absurd, to put it charitably! It is one feature that you rarely use, but brings you huge value when you do use it. You don't realize how much savings we used to extract by progressively upgrading the same desktop PC for two to three generations instead of throwing away the whole PC and buying a new one each time. This dismissal of the feature is bizarrely shortsighted. > The reality may be that wanting a laptop that's well rounded and competent across the board AND repairable+upgradable is akin to having your cake and eating it too, but that doesn't stop people from wanting it anyway. I talked about this just two days ago. Unlike how you project it, that ideal is entirely feasible if there was enough investment and a large enough market. Instead, OEMs inflict the opposite on the consumers who take it all in without pushing back. These companies choose and spread suboptimal designs that suit their interests and then insist that it is the only viable way forward. It's absurd that consumers also repeat that falsehood.
- lotsofpulp 10mo ago
  > I talked about this just two days ago. Unlike how you project it, that ideal is entirely feasible if there was enough investment and a large enough market. Instead, OEMs inflict the opposite on the consumers who take it all in without pushing back. These companies choose and spread suboptimal designs that suit their interests and then insist that it is the only viable way forward. It's absurd that consumers also repeat that falsehood. Talk is cheap. Reality is a better indicator of what is and isn’t feasible, and it’s not like there haven’t been many attempts towards that ideal, but for whatever reason, Apple’s model is the desirable one, for most.
  - johnnyanmac 10mo ago
    I've seen it from Netflix, Steam, and several others. People simply love having all their eggs in one basket, and will stubbornly support it long past the state it starts to exploit them. They support security over freedom every time, consistently. It's a bit crude, but it's also why I'm not surprised AI is catching on so quickly. People will happily outsource their ability to "think" if the product is convincing enough to them. We already spent the last decade or 2 trying to maximize the dopamine hits from social media. Now there's a tech that can (pretend to) understand your individualized needs? Ready to answer to your Beck and call and never makes you feel bad? Not as cool as thr VR pod dystopia, but I guess I overestimated how much stimulation humanity needed to reject itself.
Brian_K_White 10mo ago
"The crux of the matter is that even if one values upgradability and repairability, neither is a frequent need for practically anybody." That is entirely irrelevant. The product does what it says on the tin. If you don't value that because "repairability isn't a frequent need" then you don't value that (and the reason doesn't matter). If you* don't value that, then why did you read the tin, buy the thing, and then complain that it is what it said it was going to be? That is what's annoying to witness. I can do all that same math about price and features, yet why don't I have any buyers remourse? Do I not know about Dell and Lenovo and Apple? If the value proposition is innately bad, then why aren't I complaining too? Have I been hypnotized into acting against my own priorities and intentions? The problem is not with the product or it's price. * not literally you, sorry for how that sounds
- warkdarrior 10mo ago
  > If you* don't value that, then why did you read the tin, buy the thing, and then complain that it is what it said it was going to be? Because the tin didn't say "repairable and upgradable and poor battery life and shaky case". It only mentioned the benefits but not the drawbacks.
  - johnnyanmac 10mo ago
    To be fair, I've had plenty a non-repairable laptop with poor battery life and shaky case. I don't know their excuee.
    - jdujfkhllhl 10mo ago
      If all the laptop components break at the same time, there's no need for repairability. Then it’s just a somewhat disposable computer by design. For a car analogy, this is how many americans could afford their first car. The truly bad designs are when one broken component is preventing repairability. Hello apple!
- cosmic_cheese 10mo ago
  As others have pointed out, a lot of us would very much like to buy a Framework laptop but as it is we can’t make it make sense. We’ll be customers if Framework can figure out how to patch up their shortcomings, and by expressing that sentiment hopefully they’re encouraged to try to do that. We value reparability and upgradability and are willing to pay for it all else being roughly equal. It’s like for the same price, being given a choice between a hybrid car that’s quiet on the road and gets 45 MPG fuel economy with great torque and responsiveness but needs to be taken to the dealer to service and a car that’s easy to self service but has an annoying rattle at highway speeds, gets 15 MPG, and has a 4-speed automatic transmission. Both technically do the job, but you’d be hard pressed to find people who’d choose the latter over the former.
johnnyanmac 10mo ago
>Reliable machines Maybe one day I'll have that. Meanwhile, - my first hp laptop had to be sent in twice in 2 years. Then by year 3 I just gave up the ghost (having side income helped) - 2nd Asus laptop was used and a decent discount, so I didn't complain too much. But it hit screen issues in 2 years. - then I got a razer blade. Honestly not bad (just really expensive), I simply had the lack of hindsight to realize 3 years later that it wouldn't be compatible with Windows 11. For what reason I will never know. Not too long after the battery simply refused to hold charge as well. I could have spent to repair that, but I was already looking at an upgrade funded by my work perks anyway. My current Asus has been relatively problem free, but there were still minor things I opened it up for. Typical ram and storage upgrades at first. Spotty wifi chip early on, but I upgraded it to an Intel one for AC support a few months in regardless. Also hate how I discovered that the computer has vents on the front and will freak out if you close the display for secondary monitors no matter how well you cool the rear vents, but I guess that one's on me for not more carefully considering. So yeah, I'd rather just have something repairable.
- closewith 10mo ago
  On the other hand, we hand down our MacBooks in the family and our old 2018 MacBook Airs are still in daily use without any reliability issues AFAIK. Zero user repairability.
  - Esophagus4 10mo ago
    I had an old MacBook Air that I ran until it eventually lost battery function and new software just wouldn’t run well on such old hardware, and I stopped getting updates for the OS which meant apps slowly became incompatible. Loved that machine. 10+ years of use from the best laptop I ever had. I would’ve bought a new one when I eventually gave up on it, but the Apple of 2025 is worlds apart from the Apple of 2012. Experiments with Touch Bars and software escape keys, butterfly keyboards that frankly just suck, thin glass screens that crack, USB-C ports requiring dongles everywhere… I didn’t buy a new MacBook and migrated away from Apple instead.
    - 10mo ago
dngray 10mo ago
The thing I don't get about the framework upgradability is that, what are you honestly going to do with the old system board or graphics card? I guess you could sell it. Who's going to really buy it? I tend to upgrade my laptop every 6-8 years and by then there is nothing to upgrade well, frankly the technology has moved on, new PCIe standards DDR screen tech etc. One of the reasons I did not buy a framework (was very close to it) is the screen. I value having a decent screen attached to my laptop. I think some of these newer laptops with Tandem OLEDs will be a real improvement over what was out there previously. I thought about the port configuration as well, and that's all cool you can have 6 ports that can be anything you like, but really they are just two USB controllers controlling all that. One on either side. What would be my ultimate port configuration? Well probably like some USB-C and an audio port and a HDMI port. The network adapter sticks out so that's going to be super annoying. The newer Lenovo and Dell laptops have replaceable USB ports, which means if I wear one out I can replace it easily. What I also realized is you can do some really cool things like PCIe passthrough with Thunderbolt that of course you don't get on a Framework. Want to have an awesome GPU? Well you can use an eGPU or perhaps an flash a firmware to your NVMe (you can't do that over USB), but you can over PCIe passthrough where the device shows up as /dev/nvme0. I've always had problems with disks over USB, sometimes they'll drop from the system, and things like eSATAp were always more reliable for 3.5" disks, but that's only available on desktop with a special bracket. One of the other reasons I ended up not going for the Framework was that it uses Insyde BIOS and they were a bit slow on their Logofail firmware updates. Prompt security updates are important to me. None of them also have vPro or Ryzen Pro models, (so no encrypted RAM) https://fwupd.github.io/libfwupdplugin/hsi.html#dram-memory-encryption https://fwupd.github.io/libfwupdplugin/hsi.html#dram-memory-... if you want to achieve higher HSI 4 levels. https://fwupd.github.io/libfwupdplugin/hsi.html#hsi4-secure-state https://fwupd.github.io/libfwupdplugin/hsi.html#hsi4-secure-... In the end I'm just going to spend a little on a T1g Gen8 probably. I can upgrade the RAM in that because it's CAMM2. It may cost a little more than the framework but on special I should be able to get it for a nice price. If I had less money I'd probably just go for previous gen.
- l72 10mo ago
  Drop it into this case to be used as a home server or a set top box! https://frame.work/products/cooler-master-mainboard-case https://frame.work/products/cooler-master-mainboard-case
Xlr8head 10mo ago
Are Frameworks even upgradeable enough to enable the same kind of upgrading in the typical upgrade window as one would get buying a new machine? This means replacing nearly everything except the chassis, keyboard, and screen.
- bronson 10mo ago
  My current 128gb AI 300 started as a 16 GB 12th gen Intel. Unrelated, I also upgraded to the higher resolution screen. For me anyway, the answer is "yes".
gob_blob 10mo ago
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brookst 10mo ago
Exactly this. Everyone says they want upgradable (stated preference), but when making personal purchasing decisions, a “premium experience” is valued more highly (revealed preference).
- Klonoar 10mo ago
  “Upgradable hardware on a laptop” is a loud minority. I want open hardware. I want to know what’s running on my machine. I don’t really give two shits if the RAM is soldered because I will probably upgrade when (if) it becomes a problem.
moomin 10mo ago
It’s frustrating. A small manufacturer can’t hope to beat out a large one on price. And that’s before we consider that the maintainability that Framework offers means you can’t cut the corners the regular manufacturers do. But even I find things like the weight an unappealing proposition even though I have no idea how you’d build a laptop like Framework’s that appreciably lighter.
- cosmic_cheese 10mo ago
  I think that what it means one needs to pick their battles, at least early on. Trying to achieve repairable + upgradable + novel expandability all in one go might be somewhat overambitious for a brand new company. Do one thing really, really well instead of five things mediocrely. Once you've got one mastered, move on to the next thing. But then again, I've never run a hardware company, so maybe I'm wrong.

MarsIronPI 10mo ago

This. My idea of a repairable laptop is the Thinkpads up until around 2015. And I absolutely agree that the port modules forces Framework to limit the number of ports to the point that I'd hesitate to purchase one because I'd be swapping ports all the time.

simfree 10mo ago
The replacement parts aren't cheap either as Framework has very little used parts market. I can rehouse a Thinkpad or most other high volume laptops for a quarter or less the cost of a Framework, making the total lifetime cost much lower. Framework will sell you a new housing with screen for $399, but at that point I can buy an 11th gen Thinkpad for half the cost. I want the economics to work, but even with free labor it makes no sense.
makeitdouble 10mo ago
Have you ever tried dealing with Lenovo for parts or repairs ? My only experience with them was bleak and I never heard good stories on this front.
- MarsIronPI 10mo ago
  No, I've always gotten my Thinkpads and parts from eBay and other second-hand marketplaces.
myself248 10mo ago
As the owner of a Framework 13, you're exactly right. It only has 4 ports, at least one of which is pretty much always for charging, and let's face it you will always want a USB-A, so that leaves two. If you want to be ready for HDMI output or SD cards, that occupies them both, better hope you didn't want another USB-A or whatever. Oh, and there's a permanent headphone jack, for some reason. Compare to my last Thinkpad (a T460), which had a charger jack, three USB-A, HDMI, RJ45, MiniDP, a headphone jack, and an SD slot. I didn't need to swap adapters because everything was just already there. (I never used the MiniDP or the headphone jack, but everything else, yeah.) If the Framework had 2 or 3 permanent USB-C's in addition to the 4 swappable ports, or just had 6 or 7 swappable ports, I'd be much happier. But as it sits, carrying a baggie of modules in my backpack is just silly. That said, it can do something super cool: Charge from either side. Because there are USB-C ports on both the left and right, and any of them can be a power inlet, I'm presently laying on my side in bed, with the charger plugged into the "top" side, i.e. the one that's not leaning into the mattress. When I roll over, I'll just move the cord. When I was shopping for my "next" (present) machine, I was able to find one Ideapad that claimed it had USB-C ports on both sides, but it was eye-wateringly expensive. I couldn't get Lenovo's site to tell me which cheaper models had this, and their support people couldn't produce such a list either. Finally in frustration, I decided to give my money to Framework instead, and the either-side charging is a trick I rely on frequently. My current load-out is two USB-C and two USB-A, one of each on each side.
- dagmx 10mo ago
  Quite a few laptops support dual side charging fwiw. It’s definitely useful but not all that rare.
  - bloak 10mo ago
    I first saw that feature on a cheap Chromebook and was a bit surprised. But I suppose the more expensive machines have great battery life (for the first year or so) and the people who own them are too cool to use a cable.
  - myself248 10mo ago
    Right, but there's no way to search for them, that I've found. Even if a machine has multiple USB-C ports, the only way to ascertain that they're on both sides is to find photos of both sides. It's not like a specific amount of RAM that you can just click a checkbox to filter by. And then you have to assume that the photos depict the actual model and variant you're getting, which is not always the case. It'd be a hard row to hoe, to return a machine based on "it had all the same ports it claimed, but in different places"...

paulddraper 10mo ago

This is an insane take. The number of MacBooks I’ve seen shipped back to repair center for weeks, over a single non functional key, is astonishing.

Aurornis 10mo ago
As opposed to taking the part out of a Framework laptop, shipping it back to the repair center for weeks, and then reinstalling it when it comes back? Or if time is of the essence, ordering the brand new part to skip the repair process and then installing it yourself when it arrives later? Contrast this with the amount of time my coworker spent hauling his laptop charger everywhere and obsessively topping up his laptop battery while traveling because the battery drain during sleep was a problem at that time. This added extra wear and tear on the battery, of course, but I guess he could replace it himself?
- paulddraper 10mo ago
  You just order a new key, and install it. And not have the downtime. (You can remap key or use an external keyboard.) And yeah, replacing the battery is easy. Not a Framework, but I replaced a laptop battery some years ago, was glad I had that option, because lithium battery lifetime always decreases eventually. I’m old enough to remember when many phones and some laptops had removable batteries. Switch to a spare, and boom instantly full, you didn’t need to tether it to a wall.
cosmic_cheese 10mo ago
But how common of a problem is this, now that Apple is well clear of the butterfly keyboard mess? I haven’t had to get my MacBooks repaired even once in the past decade and change, and that’s despite two of the machines I’d used during that time being the butterfly/touch bar models! That being said, yes it’d be better if such a repair were quick and easy, but I’m not sure that it’s so valuable as to justify battery life being around a third what my MacBooks get or wrestling a buggy, immature BIOS and all the issues that come with that. A laptop that’s bad at being a laptop isn’t worth a whole lot…

idontwantthis 10mo ago

Also the fact that hardware is pretty stagnant and upgrades aren’t that important anymore for most stuff. I bought an Acer in 2012 and over the next 5 years I upgraded the RAM from 4 gb to 8gb and swapped the hdd for an ssd. Those were enormous upgrades! Then I bought a MacBook Pro with 16gb and an ssd and didn’t need another computer until this year (still didn’t NEED one but I found a good deal on a 4 year old MBP).

makeitdouble 10mo ago

> hardware has usually advanced far enough That's not what we're experiencing. Screens have seen improvements, but not in a significant way within these 4-6 years. Keyboards haven't improved leaps and bounds. Track pads either. Laptop casings haven't seen innovation either. The only thing that significantly changes is the motherboard, which is not nothing, but replacing it independently makes sense to me. > port module idea. That's one of the best idea they have! You might have bought a laptop with 4 USB ports 5 years ago, only to realize you'd be so much happier with two USB-A. Or you realize you never ever use the SD Card slot. Well, you'd fix that easily on a Framework, not on any other laptop. I wish I could do that right now. The only reason I haven't one of their laptop is their stubborn refusal to ship outside a dozen or so countries.

cosmic_cheese 10mo ago
I’ll contest that on the screens. Mini-LED backlighting is a substantial step up for contrast, backlights in general have gotten brighter, IPS panels have gained notability better color gamuts and contrast, and OLED panels are now widely available even in budget machines. The screens on the M1-M4 MBPs look quite visibly nicer than those MBPs used up until 2019. Those painfully awful 1366x768 TN panels that used to be commonplace have finally mostly been ousted, too. As a result, chances are that the laptop you buy at nearly any price bracket in 2026 has a screen that’s moderately to dramatically better than was found in laptops in the same bracket up until 2020-2022. The problems with the port modules are that due to their dimensions, the number of ports you can have on the laptop at once is small and the big voids in the chassis required for them to be able to slot in greatly weakens it and makes it more prone to flexing. With an alternative design that uses internal port boards (still hooked up via USB-C) with matching exterior side plates, you could easily do something like 3x USB-C, 1x USB-A on the left and 1x Ethernet, 1x USB-C, 1x USB-A, 1x SD/microSD on the right in the same space as would’ve been taken by the modules for half as many ports. This would suit most users perfectly out of the box, precluding the need for swapping for many, but for those who need one side to be full USB-C or multiple NICs or a cell modem or something that’s still possible.
- makeitdouble 10mo ago

goku12 10mo ago

> The crux of the matter is that even if one values upgradability and repairability, neither is a frequent need for practically anybody. Judging reparability and serviceability the same way as you do with other features is absurd, to put it charitably! It is one feature that you rarely use, but brings you huge value when you do use it. You don't realize how much savings we used to extract by progressively upgrading the same desktop PC for two to three generations instead of throwing away the whole PC and buying a new one each time. This dismissal of the feature is bizarrely shortsighted. > The reality may be that wanting a laptop that's well rounded and competent across the board AND repairable+upgradable is akin to having your cake and eating it too, but that doesn't stop people from wanting it anyway. I talked about this just two days ago. Unlike how you project it, that ideal is entirely feasible if there was enough investment and a large enough market. Instead, OEMs inflict the opposite on the consumers who take it all in without pushing back. These companies choose and spread suboptimal designs that suit their interests and then insist that it is the only viable way forward. It's absurd that consumers also repeat that falsehood.

lotsofpulp 10mo ago
> I talked about this just two days ago. Unlike how you project it, that ideal is entirely feasible if there was enough investment and a large enough market. Instead, OEMs inflict the opposite on the consumers who take it all in without pushing back. These companies choose and spread suboptimal designs that suit their interests and then insist that it is the only viable way forward. It's absurd that consumers also repeat that falsehood. Talk is cheap. Reality is a better indicator of what is and isn’t feasible, and it’s not like there haven’t been many attempts towards that ideal, but for whatever reason, Apple’s model is the desirable one, for most.
- johnnyanmac 10mo ago
  I've seen it from Netflix, Steam, and several others. People simply love having all their eggs in one basket, and will stubbornly support it long past the state it starts to exploit them. They support security over freedom every time, consistently. It's a bit crude, but it's also why I'm not surprised AI is catching on so quickly. People will happily outsource their ability to "think" if the product is convincing enough to them. We already spent the last decade or 2 trying to maximize the dopamine hits from social media. Now there's a tech that can (pretend to) understand your individualized needs? Ready to answer to your Beck and call and never makes you feel bad? Not as cool as thr VR pod dystopia, but I guess I overestimated how much stimulation humanity needed to reject itself.

Brian_K_White 10mo ago

"The crux of the matter is that even if one values upgradability and repairability, neither is a frequent need for practically anybody." That is entirely irrelevant. The product does what it says on the tin. If you don't value that because "repairability isn't a frequent need" then you don't value that (and the reason doesn't matter). If you* don't value that, then why did you read the tin, buy the thing, and then complain that it is what it said it was going to be? That is what's annoying to witness. I can do all that same math about price and features, yet why don't I have any buyers remourse? Do I not know about Dell and Lenovo and Apple? If the value proposition is innately bad, then why aren't I complaining too? Have I been hypnotized into acting against my own priorities and intentions? The problem is not with the product or it's price. * not literally you, sorry for how that sounds

warkdarrior 10mo ago
> If you* don't value that, then why did you read the tin, buy the thing, and then complain that it is what it said it was going to be? Because the tin didn't say "repairable and upgradable and poor battery life and shaky case". It only mentioned the benefits but not the drawbacks.
- johnnyanmac 10mo ago
  To be fair, I've had plenty a non-repairable laptop with poor battery life and shaky case. I don't know their excuee.
  - jdujfkhllhl 10mo ago
    If all the laptop components break at the same time, there's no need for repairability. Then it’s just a somewhat disposable computer by design. For a car analogy, this is how many americans could afford their first car. The truly bad designs are when one broken component is preventing repairability. Hello apple!
cosmic_cheese 10mo ago
As others have pointed out, a lot of us would very much like to buy a Framework laptop but as it is we can’t make it make sense. We’ll be customers if Framework can figure out how to patch up their shortcomings, and by expressing that sentiment hopefully they’re encouraged to try to do that. We value reparability and upgradability and are willing to pay for it all else being roughly equal. It’s like for the same price, being given a choice between a hybrid car that’s quiet on the road and gets 45 MPG fuel economy with great torque and responsiveness but needs to be taken to the dealer to service and a car that’s easy to self service but has an annoying rattle at highway speeds, gets 15 MPG, and has a 4-speed automatic transmission. Both technically do the job, but you’d be hard pressed to find people who’d choose the latter over the former.

johnnyanmac 10mo ago

>Reliable machines Maybe one day I'll have that. Meanwhile, - my first hp laptop had to be sent in twice in 2 years. Then by year 3 I just gave up the ghost (having side income helped) - 2nd Asus laptop was used and a decent discount, so I didn't complain too much. But it hit screen issues in 2 years. - then I got a razer blade. Honestly not bad (just really expensive), I simply had the lack of hindsight to realize 3 years later that it wouldn't be compatible with Windows 11. For what reason I will never know. Not too long after the battery simply refused to hold charge as well. I could have spent to repair that, but I was already looking at an upgrade funded by my work perks anyway. My current Asus has been relatively problem free, but there were still minor things I opened it up for. Typical ram and storage upgrades at first. Spotty wifi chip early on, but I upgraded it to an Intel one for AC support a few months in regardless. Also hate how I discovered that the computer has vents on the front and will freak out if you close the display for secondary monitors no matter how well you cool the rear vents, but I guess that one's on me for not more carefully considering. So yeah, I'd rather just have something repairable.

closewith 10mo ago
On the other hand, we hand down our MacBooks in the family and our old 2018 MacBook Airs are still in daily use without any reliability issues AFAIK. Zero user repairability.
- Esophagus4 10mo ago
  I had an old MacBook Air that I ran until it eventually lost battery function and new software just wouldn’t run well on such old hardware, and I stopped getting updates for the OS which meant apps slowly became incompatible. Loved that machine. 10+ years of use from the best laptop I ever had. I would’ve bought a new one when I eventually gave up on it, but the Apple of 2025 is worlds apart from the Apple of 2012. Experiments with Touch Bars and software escape keys, butterfly keyboards that frankly just suck, thin glass screens that crack, USB-C ports requiring dongles everywhere… I didn’t buy a new MacBook and migrated away from Apple instead.
  - 10mo ago

dngray 10mo ago

The thing I don't get about the framework upgradability is that, what are you honestly going to do with the old system board or graphics card? I guess you could sell it. Who's going to really buy it? I tend to upgrade my laptop every 6-8 years and by then there is nothing to upgrade well, frankly the technology has moved on, new PCIe standards DDR screen tech etc. One of the reasons I did not buy a framework (was very close to it) is the screen. I value having a decent screen attached to my laptop. I think some of these newer laptops with Tandem OLEDs will be a real improvement over what was out there previously. I thought about the port configuration as well, and that's all cool you can have 6 ports that can be anything you like, but really they are just two USB controllers controlling all that. One on either side. What would be my ultimate port configuration? Well probably like some USB-C and an audio port and a HDMI port. The network adapter sticks out so that's going to be super annoying. The newer Lenovo and Dell laptops have replaceable USB ports, which means if I wear one out I can replace it easily. What I also realized is you can do some really cool things like PCIe passthrough with Thunderbolt that of course you don't get on a Framework. Want to have an awesome GPU? Well you can use an eGPU or perhaps an flash a firmware to your NVMe (you can't do that over USB), but you can over PCIe passthrough where the device shows up as /dev/nvme0. I've always had problems with disks over USB, sometimes they'll drop from the system, and things like eSATAp were always more reliable for 3.5" disks, but that's only available on desktop with a special bracket. One of the other reasons I ended up not going for the Framework was that it uses Insyde BIOS and they were a bit slow on their Logofail firmware updates. Prompt security updates are important to me. None of them also have vPro or Ryzen Pro models, (so no encrypted RAM) https://fwupd.github.io/libfwupdplugin/hsi.html#dram-memory-encryption https://fwupd.github.io/libfwupdplugin/hsi.html#dram-memory-... if you want to achieve higher HSI 4 levels. https://fwupd.github.io/libfwupdplugin/hsi.html#hsi4-secure-state https://fwupd.github.io/libfwupdplugin/hsi.html#hsi4-secure-... In the end I'm just going to spend a little on a T1g Gen8 probably. I can upgrade the RAM in that because it's CAMM2. It may cost a little more than the framework but on special I should be able to get it for a nice price. If I had less money I'd probably just go for previous gen.

l72 10mo ago
Drop it into this case to be used as a home server or a set top box! https://frame.work/products/cooler-master-mainboard-case https://frame.work/products/cooler-master-mainboard-case

Xlr8head 10mo ago

Are Frameworks even upgradeable enough to enable the same kind of upgrading in the typical upgrade window as one would get buying a new machine? This means replacing nearly everything except the chassis, keyboard, and screen.

bronson 10mo ago
My current 128gb AI 300 started as a 16 GB 12th gen Intel. Unrelated, I also upgraded to the higher resolution screen. For me anyway, the answer is "yes".

gob_blob 10mo ago

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brookst 10mo ago

Exactly this. Everyone says they want upgradable (stated preference), but when making personal purchasing decisions, a “premium experience” is valued more highly (revealed preference).

Klonoar 10mo ago
“Upgradable hardware on a laptop” is a loud minority. I want open hardware. I want to know what’s running on my machine. I don’t really give two shits if the RAM is soldered because I will probably upgrade when (if) it becomes a problem.

moomin 10mo ago

It’s frustrating. A small manufacturer can’t hope to beat out a large one on price. And that’s before we consider that the maintainability that Framework offers means you can’t cut the corners the regular manufacturers do. But even I find things like the weight an unappealing proposition even though I have no idea how you’d build a laptop like Framework’s that appreciably lighter.

cosmic_cheese 10mo ago
I think that what it means one needs to pick their battles, at least early on. Trying to achieve repairable + upgradable + novel expandability all in one go might be somewhat overambitious for a brand new company. Do one thing really, really well instead of five things mediocrely. Once you've got one mastered, move on to the next thing. But then again, I've never run a hardware company, so maybe I'm wrong.