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Ultrasound Cancer Treatment: Sound Waves Fight Tumors
- darkerside 11mo agoDumb question, but isn't there a risk of spreading cancer causing proteins throughout the body with this approach?
- ramraj07 11mo agoCancer isn't caused by proteins in the way you might think. Its definitely not infectious at the protein level. You could ask if this disruption spreads out cancer cells themselves and that would be fair to ask. But then the cancer cells were already in your body and were likely trying to migrate to other sites anyway.
- amelius 11mo agoOk, but this might stimulate migration further.
- sowbug 11mo agoThe success of surgery to remove solid tumors usually hinges on whether there are "clean margins," meaning they were able to remove all the bad tissue and a little good surrounding tissue just to be sure. It's likely that the same principle applies using this new procedure: if you blast the whole thing and trust the body to clean up the mess, hopefully there won't be anything left to worry about.
- darkerside 11mo ago> trust the body to clean up the mess This is what I'd like to understand better, rather than operate on trust. A couple of other commenters have shared good context.
- jjtheblunt 11mo agothe article talks about this, the (too vaguely explained) tldr is that pulverization allows neoantigens to be exposed to the immune system rather than hidden within a tumor. i saw elsewhere (weeks ago) an article that this worked excellently, but this article seems to not reference it. this is one such article: https://viterbischool.usc.edu/news/2025/11/tricking-tumors-into-marking-themselves-for-destruction/ https://viterbischool.usc.edu/news/2025/11/tricking-tumors-i...
- ramoz 11mo ago> Histotripsy generally seems to stimulate an immune response, helping the body attack cancer cells that weren’t targeted directly by ultrasound. The mechanical destruction of tumors likely leaves behind recognizable traces of cancer proteins that help the immune system learn to identify and destroy similar cells elsewhere in the body, explains Wood. Researchers are now exploring ways to pair histotripsy with immunotherapy to amplify that effect.
- 0xWTF 11mo agoHistotripsy means "cell pulverizing". We know disruption (pulverization or otherwise) of a tumor bed tends to incite a local inflammatory reaction, and a brisk inflammatory reaction seems to correlate with survival. So the idea here seems to be an extension of high energy ultrasound methods developed for lithotripsy (breaking up kidney stones) to disrupt tumor beds. Not something I'd want for a pre-cancerous lesion, but if it's stage 4 liver mets ... sure. Have at it.
- melling 11mo agoThe machine has been available for a couple years to treat liver tumors. It’s available in several US cities but not widely available. It uses cavitation to destroy the tumor. https://www.mdanderson.org/cancerwise/histotripsy-for-liver-cancer--what-to-know-about-this-novel-cancer-treatment.h00-159773289.html https://www.mdanderson.org/cancerwise/histotripsy-for-liver-...
- jtbaker 11mo agoAs someone who was recently diagnosed and treated for Uveal Melanoma (get your annual eye exam and retinal scans!), and occasionally struggling with some intrusive thoughts about the potential for liver mets, reading about this treatment brought me so much joy. Bless Zhen Xu!
- moralestapia 11mo agoHey, I'm curious, did you have symptoms or did you just find it by chance?
- jtbaker 11mo agono symptoms. first identified the lesion a few years back and it hadn't changed over a few subsequent appointments. exam this year, it had grown a small amount 5mmx5mm to 6mmx8mm - still considered small, but the change was enough for the Drs to recommend treatment. I have been treated by Dr. Dan Gombos[1] at MD Anderson and received excellent care. [1] https://faculty.mdanderson.org/profiles/dan_gombos.html https://faculty.mdanderson.org/profiles/dan_gombos.html
- moralestapia 11mo agoInteresting, thanks. Best wishes!
- jtbaker 11mo agoThank you!
- f6v 11mo agoI have a relative with the same disease. They went to a an eye doctor because of visual artifacts. Turns out the tumor was so big it caused retinal detachment. Basically, most people get diagnosed at a very late stage because it's mostly asymptomatic.
- jmward01 11mo agoThe advancements in imaging, cheap intelligence and non-invasive (mostly) tools like this are amazing. I can easily see a future where we can scan, and analyze, every cell in a body and then selectively manipulate them to achieve the desired effect. I doubt we are actually that far away actually.
- CGMthrowaway 11mo agoWhat are the chances that breaking up a tumor this way seeds cancer elsewhere in the body? 2024 meta analysis of seeding I didn't see ultrasound in there: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39605885/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39605885/ Here is a study on AEs specifically from this type of ultrasound: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0026110 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... Quote: "Cavitation detaches cancer cells/emboli from the primary site and thereby releases them into the circulation, leading to metastasis"
- agumonkey 11mo agoIt would not be the first therapy that may promote spread while curing the primary site. Hopefully there are measures to assess the cost / benefits.
- CGMthrowaway 11mo agoFor sure. Goes without saying in any cancer treatment that cost/benefit is a prime consideration. Still, that will not stop me from asking the question. You can't do that analysis without the answers after all.
- agumonkey 11mo agoStopping you wasn't my intent. I'm just a visitor sharing some stuff. If any medical professional could give answers that would be neat.
- jjtheblunt 11mo ago> What are the chances that breaking up a tumor this way seeds cancer elsewhere in the body? that's discussed in the article
- j16sdiz 11mo agoI read it three time and can't see anything related.
- mcbain 11mo agoPreviously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45514378 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45514378
- cogman10 11mo agoDue to some family stuff, this is something I've been investigating. My oncologist has said "this will probably be standard care in a few years". The results and studies around this have been excellent. What this does better than pretty much anything else is it isolates the destruction of cells to just the target. The liver is a VERY "bleedy" organ. It has a ton of blood that flows through it which makes surgery extra hard. In fact, the not this surgery that's next best for our circumstances laparoscopic through the arteries to drop a radioactive pellet in the center of the cancer. The non-invasive nature of this is going to be very good for the future of cancer treatment. Minimizing scaring and damage to tissue is the number 1 factor to better results. The only reason my local oncologist does not have this machine is they are still pretty pricey. When I first learned about this, I thought it was pseudo-science BS. It's crazy what can be done with just sound.
- chiph 11mo agoI finished treatment for prostate cancer this summer. Most of my time in the x-ray machine was spent getting the alignment right. They'd take a CT scan, do some image analysis and other computations, then adjust the table some small amount before turning the beam on. I'm curious how they do the alignment with the histotripsy machine. I would think that they could obviously do an ultrasound scan to get the gross alignment correct. But perhaps there is a CT scan afterwards that lets them make the fine alignment. It probably also helps that the liver is a much larger gland so aiming is less critical?
- cogman10 11mo agoI'm not sure how they do it exactly. I know just the nature of the machine is that it has a massive array of ultrasound emitters and sensors.
- elcritch 11mo agoIdeally it'd just be software driven. Take an ultrasound scan, adjust, blast. In theory this could be done in milliseconds to counter patient movements. Pretty nifty really!
- YossarianFrPrez 11mo agoPer the article, this seems even better than the headline would suggest: > Histotripsy generally seems to stimulate an immune response, helping the body attack cancer cells that weren’t targeted directly by ultrasound. The mechanical destruction of tumors likely leaves behind recognizable traces of cancer proteins that help the immune system learn to identify and destroy similar cells elsewhere in the body, explains Wood. Researchers are now exploring ways to pair histotripsy with immunotherapy to amplify that effect.
- chaboud 11mo agoI had the opportunity to meet with folks from Histosonics at a Canopy Cancer Collective (pancreas cancer focused group - https://canopycancer.org/ https://canopycancer.org/) annual meeting a couple of years ago. They had shown very promising results (and approval) with liver cancer, and the applicability to any soft-tissue openly-addressable masses (e.g., not brains in skulls, not lungs full of air) seemed very likely, based on the physics. (Note: I'm a consumer electronics and ML engineer, not a medical devices engineer). I'm excited to see this option become more broadly available. The ability to precisely target and illicit an inflammatory response is impressive, and Whipples are no joke.
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- jbverschoor 11mo agoDoes this work with lung cancer?
- bobim 11mo agoProbably not as lungs are behind the rib cage and filled with air, making two sources of spurious reflections that could be dangerous with high intensity ultrasounds.
- lostsock 11mo agoThe awesome "What's your problem" postcast had an episode with the CEO of this company recently which I really enjoyed: https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/whats-your-problem/using-sound-waves-to-destroy-tumors https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/whats-your-problem/using-sou...
- PaulHoule 11mo agoIn general there is a lot of work on ultrasound stimulation now, some of it is scary in other ways: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-025-65080-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-025-65080-9 which could imaginably lead to wireheading or something like Niven's "tasp".
- gsf_emergency_6 11mo agoThere's also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46008332 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46008332 Are these guys losers,clueless, or born psychopaths? I hope for another category :)
- PaulHoule 11mo agoWell when I was younger I was into chemical yoga, and you know I lived this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6uEMOeDZsA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6uEMOeDZsA
- gsf_emergency_6 11mo agoThis to the other one that made the end credits of BtTF is as Sixto to Dylan :)
- aebtebeten 11mo agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeHlvXvG6vA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeHlvXvG6vA
- PaulHoule 11mo ago… those ones that mother gives you that don’t do anything at all!
- gsf_emergency_6 11mo agoNot mother (or one of the universal mascots of fecundity[1]) only something to feed the festive fire https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45955649 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45955649 (By way of an "explanation" of the "3 boxes") [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_hares https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_hares >There are two possible and perhaps concurrent reasons why the three hares may have found popularity as a symbol within the church. Firstly, it was believed that the hare was hermaphrodite and could reproduce without loss of virginity.[26] This led to an association with the Virgin Mary, with hares sometimes occurring in illuminated manuscripts and Northern European paintings of the Virgin and Christ Child.
- _sxou 11mo agoCould this be applicable and available to the public within a reasonable time horizon? My mother is dealing with a brain tumor located in the pons, and no surgeons will operate because of its location, as the risk is too high. Radiation treatments have also been exhausted and have already caused some necrosis. There was another form of light-based therapy, but it is experimental and carries an incredibly high risk as well. The prognosis has never been good, but we’ve been holding out hope. At this point, treatment consists of nonstop chemotherapy.
- bobim 11mo agoGetting the US through the skull bone is next to impossible due to the acoustic impedance mismatch with surrounding tissues. As a stranger I'm deeply sorry for your situation, and thought your question should be answered somehow... If you want to dig a little bit, the team of Mathias Fink in Paris explored "time reversal" techniques to get through the skull: one have to emmit from the tumor location, listen with a huge array, reverse the signature and blast. I don't know if this ended with a medical device. Take care.
- _sxou 11mo agoThanks for the kind words and the response, I'll take a look. Even though it feels fruitless as we've already got doctors working on it and likely much more aware of what's available or coming. I'm just a software engineer who's trying to make sense of it all.
- buu700 11mo agoThanks for posting this. Sounds super promising, and the explanation of histotripsy's mechanism of action is compelling. Given the 2023 approval (for liver tumors) and oversubscribed $250m funding round announced in October, it seems like there's a ton of momentum behind this. I also see that the treatment is available at my local hospital system (Inova), which is an encouraging sign of its general availability. Anyone who's commenting to ask whether it's an option for you or a loved one, check your state's right-to-try laws. Virginia and various other states do apparently have right-to-try laws that cover medical devices: https://triagecancer.org/state-laws/righttotry https://triagecancer.org/state-laws/righttotry. Fuck cancer.
- maxdo 11mo agofrom purely physics , how is cancer cell different from regular cell to react with ultra/infra? is it so different?
- rincebrain 11mo agoIt's not. The key thing is, one of the things most tumors need to do to get past a certain point is avoid getting caught being tumors. If you can very selectively cause precise tissue death, from any method, then your body will suddenly start looking askance at any tissue that looks like the secretly-full-of-tumor-markers corpse it just found. And ultrasonic cavitation means you can, in theory, cause very precise tissue death with even less surrounding effect than radiation.
- Nevermark 11mo agoBeing non-invasive and incredibly precise, this could be a fantastic therapy for brain cancer treatment. Assuming the costs of the precise powerful machines needed are not too high (this isn't anything like MRI), it could be a therapy for almost any kind of cancer tumor, and even small potential/pre-cancer tumors that are safe to remove without bothering to do a diagnosis.
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- pointbob 11mo agoHeavy metal has entered the chat.
- aitchnyu 11mo agoWill this be applicable to belly/visceral fat? It could be wildly popular.
- throwup238 11mo agoYes. There are several methods like high-intensity focused ultrasound (UltraShape and Liposonix) and the ultrasonic cavitation found in medspas. The former is somewhat effective but based on early research shares the same problems as other active fat loss treatments: lysing the fat cells causes all the relevant hormones to get released into the bloodstream, causing reabsorption by other fat cells. It’s a very gradual process and quite expensive.
- KnuthIsGod 11mo agoA random popular article on ieee.org is not a Phase 3 RCT published in the NEJM. Click bait is click bait but reliably reels in the gullible.
- darubedarob 11mo agoI wish there was a way todo chemo locally only. Like a body part has cancer, you add a bypass to that part and put that bodypart on a eccmo chemo poisoning only the affected system part. After that flush out and reconnect.
- amashal 11mo agoWe are more than a decade away from knowing if Histosonics technology will actually be a meaningful treatment modality. It definitely is 'cool' in that there is no incision. However, whenever you deliver ultrasound energy from outside of the body, accuracy goes down; you are also limited by anatomy in the path of the ultrasound (e.g. going through the rib cage with ultrasound is not trivial). Folks I have spoken to who have bought these units say they are only allowed to use them if the tumor is superficial (i.e. near the skin). On top of that patient motion due to breathing definitely causes inaccuracies and complications. One doctor said it's an expensive paperweight (but it does bring patients in who ask for it). Also, the clinical efficacy is not fully understood. Researchers are most excited by an enhanced abscopal effect (i.e. natural immune response), but that's not a proven phenomenon. Finally, it is really expensive (~$1.5M) so it will be difficult to scale outside of research hospitals and cancer centers. Of course, I don't want to be too negative. It's a win for patients when they have more options. Full disclosure: I am co-founder of Current Surgical, where we are developing a minimally invasive system based on miniaturized focused ultrasound to achieve precise thermal ablation (not cavitation). Our device can both see and destroy tissue from the same sensors, we can achieve millimeter accuracy. And because the technology can be integrated into any number of surgical tools (needle, catheter, etc) we can potentially reach any anatomy.
- KellyCriterion 11mo agoMay I ask: > Folks I have spoken to who have bought these units say they are only allowed to use them if the tumor is superficial < Is this because of: - the efficiency is going down massivly (maybe into useless) or - using it "below superficial" might cause other/new problems?
- amashal 11mo agoThere are a couple of reasons. 1. There is a wavelength and penetration depth trade off. For better accuracy you need smaller wavelengths (i.e. higher frequencies) but at higher frequencies ultrasound pressure gets absorbed at a higher rate, making it challenging to get the required pressure levels deeper into tissue. 2. Ultrasound focus can deflect as it travels in tissue (tissue is a non-linear material and multiple tissue types impacts wave propagation). The deeper you try to focus, the more likely that there is a deflection; thus your focus point won’t be exactly where you were planning.