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Is Proton leaving Switzerland?
- TheCleric 10mo agoRough English translation: https://www-nzz-ch.translate.goog/technologie/proton-ceo-andy-yen-wer-gesetzgebung-der-polizei-ueberlaesst-sollte-sich-nicht-wundern-wenn-er-eines-tages-in-einem-polizeistaat-aufwacht-ld.1916779?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-nzz-ch.translate.goog/technologie/proton-ceo-and...
- mikelitoris 10mo agoWhy are all European countries interested in surveillance all of a sudden in the last 3-4 years? WW3 preparations, just in case? They realized they are harboring a lot of foreign agents? Good ol’ power grab under false pretenses (ala patriot act)? Or all of the above? I hoped Switzerland would never do this, being the “perfect” country they think they are and are so proud(smug?) of being; alas here we are.
- Lapsa 10mo agoI reckon gang stalking and politicians receiving death threats got something to do with it.
- HSO 10mo ago[flagged]
- mschuster91 10mo ago> Why are all European countries interested in surveillance all of a sudden in the last 3-4 years? That has been going on for decades, actually. What has changed is that people are looking at it.
- seydor 10mo agoNo it has not. europeans have been pro-privacy and very wary of spying until ~2015? Trump 1 was a point when privacy stopped being a priority
- roelschroeven 10mo agoLots of politicians haven been pro-spying for quite a long time. Lots of people are quite indifferent about it. The massive shift of communications to digital channels has put mountains of data right there for the grabs, which is extremely attractive for people who want access to all that data.
- mschuster91 10mo ago> No it has not. europeans have been pro-privacy and very wary of spying until ~2015? German here, look how fucking often our politicians tried to push stuff like the Vorratsdatenspeicherung.
- Diti 10mo agoMy headcannon is that it’s a money thing, and that there must be intense lobbying by the internet surveillance manufacturers (like Thales).
- deleted 10mo ago[deleted]
- hypeatei 10mo agoI'm not European, but it's probably a mix of intelligence services advocating for it and government regulation as a solution to everything. If you believe that every problem can be solved by a regulator, then the logical endgame is the regulator needing a window into every aspect of your life so they can make sure you're not violating regulations. The Patriot Act isn't on equal footing as these Chat Control-esque laws we're seeing. The US government spies on people, sure, but they're not mandating encryption backdoors or trying to outlaw VPNs.
- gastonmorixe 10mo agoyou sure? https://www.apple.com/customer-letter/ https://www.apple.com/customer-letter/ (2016)
- hypeatei 10mo agoFair, the US government is not a saint in this respect. I will say that a three letter agency getting upset and requesting a backdoor does seem different than a legislative (executive?) commission proposing laws to backdoor communications. From a recent EFF post[0], it appears they've backed off the scanning and encryption demands so that's good, I guess. Hopefully that sticks and they don't propose something similar in the future. 0: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2025/12/after-years-controversy-eus-chat-control-nears-its-final-hurdle-what-know https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2025/12/after-years-controvers...
- timschmidt 10mo agoIn the US, the laws permitting mass surveillance are, at least in part, secret: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Court#Secret_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Intellig...
- drawfloat 10mo agoSnowden revealed PRISM meant the US government just had straight access to servers of major providers, so they didn’t need any of this. I would be shocked if the NSA hadn’t stepped up its data collection efforts in the last decade in secret.
- stefantalpalaru 10mo ago[dead]
- zem 10mo agoI feel like over time governments and government agencies naturally attract and retain people inclined towards overreach, especially if they live in a bubble where there are always good and valid reasons for said overreach. you need a branch of the government explicitly combatting this tendency for it not to happen.
- seydor 10mo agoCertain countries like Greece use surveillance against political opponents. In this case, the PM himself oversaw the spying of the current opposition leader, journalists and others. There's also lobbying from "security" companies who are pressuring governments to purchase and install their systems, but they require realtime spying of everyone.
- paradox460 10mo agoTwo sitting US presidents have used the intelligence apparatus to spy on political opponents. One was impeached over it
- tclover 10mo agowake up, EU is turning into the dictatorship
- snickerbockers 10mo agoIts not just Europe. america is too, it just seems less egregious because the American people are used to seeing the government contract out constitutional violations to private corporations which have incestuous links to the government. With recent AI advancements, an orwellian hell is all but inevitable. If you (by which i mean the powers that be not you specifically) don't build it then some competing faction will and they'll be in control of it. Its the classic prisoner dilemma.
- retinaros 10mo agomost of the laws voted against terrorism in europe were aimed at removing freedom and track people while they freely imported millions of people from the countries that they deemed dangerous without any background check, without even helping those people from totally different cultures to integrate within european society
- bubbasugga 10mo agothere is no plan or vision, integration strategy, mechanism to control migrant influx, no truthful evaluation of mass migration over last 10 years. just millions of migrants abusing welfare, deteriorating trust and eroding social cohesion. it's depressing, when you go to the city and have to look hard for another familiar face. it's not subtle and unfortunately it's not just all in my head.
- jajuuka 10mo agoI think it might be opportunism. Many western societies have struggled with post covid reintegration and the amount of social media kids are involved with. Not to mention rising nationalism and far right orgs. So it makes a solid catalyst to launch these mass surveillance programs in the name of protecting children and natives. Governments are never perfect. They are always in a precarious position where they can turn quite harsh quite quickly. I can't speak to each EU nations politics but things have been turning towards the right for a while and they are finally in positions where they can make these demands and get them passed.
- krunck 10mo agoThe left plays their part too.
- sunshine-o 10mo agoBrowsing the MEP positions on fightchatcontrol.eu it was very clear to me that: - So called "Far left" and "Far right" MEPs were declared "Opposed" - The "Center" MEPs were "Unknown", what means "Support" I guess. I believe we have been programmed not to notice how radical the "center" is... - [0] https://fightchatcontrol.eu https://fightchatcontrol.eu
- derelicta 10mo agoEuropean States are vassals of America. They probably just reminded us poor helvetes that our neutrality and sovereignty was on paper only, and that if we opposed them, we would end up like Venezuela or Lybia.
- sph 10mo agoThe State must grow, and this is the lowest hanging fruit. What are they gonna do, try to fix the economy? Housing? Youth prospects? It’s a win-win for the politicians and the pensioners that vote them, that believe any nonsense about children safety.
- sunshine-o 10mo ago> Why are all European countries interested in surveillance all of a sudden in the last 3-4 years? Something I realized recently is how low the approval ratings of European leaders are: - Macron and Starmer are about 18% - Mertz is 25% (only 6 months in) - Von Leyen is 23% This is ridiculous. We often perceive Trump as highly unpopular but he is cruising between 40 and 50%, that's double. So those leaders, according to the numbers, are becoming illegitimate or the system is broken. So we are just waiting for a spark to put the house on fire. Mass surveillance within your territory is really a weapon against your own population, it is not to catch spies (they are trained to evade them).
- impossiblefork 10mo agoI've observed that one path to becoming ridiculously authoritarian is to be unpopular and about to be thrown out of office, so I think you've the nail on the head with this remark. I didn't know the approval ratings were this low.
- ActorNightly 10mo ago>Why are all European countries interested in surveillance all of a sudden in the last 3-4 years? Because they look at what happened US, at the rise of popularity of fascism throughout the world (which is mostly perpetuated by key media players under the mask of being "anti-woke"), and basically decide that the people can no longer be trusted. And they are fully correct. Ive said this before on here, but the whole idea of privacy from surveillance is not applicable anymore in todays world. The standard line of arguing is that people should be able to speak the truth free from government knowing about it and trying to silence them. The problem with this * Most of the "truth" that these people refer to has been literally false propaganda, or ability to say slurs on social media. * Despite that fact, not a single public media person speaking these lies has been silenced in any way by the government, despite things like patriot act existing in US or equivalent things in EU. The only time people have been silenced in places like UK is when posting extremely out of pocket stuff. Furthermore people also say that you don't want to give the government the power to do this now because a government that you may not like will want to do this. Well, to no one surprise, the people with this libertarian mindset (and the so called "centrists") overwhelmingly vote right wing, and consequently, right wing runs on a platform of freedom, but when those people get in power, they not only actively tries to silence actual truth and free speech, but also they just don't give a fuck about the law and do what they want anyways. So as unfortunate as it is, its a much better outcome for the current state of administration in EU to take a more invasive role in policing the populace, because economic growth and stability over long term is worth way more than some idealistic approach based on above. Historically this has shown to be true over and over again, while the latter has shown to result in economic decline. So its wortwhile to sacrifice some personal rights in return for a better future - we already do this to a large extent so this is nothing new. In terms of applicability to the regular person, please understand that the privacy ship for you has already long sailed. You already can be tracked and analyzed in extreme detail, by really any person or company that is willing to buy advertising data and do correlation. There are companies that literally do this and contract out to the government. Also, you aren't that important enough to care about.
- poisonborz 10mo ago"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety..."
- layer8 10mo agoIt’s “all of a sudden” because E2EE messaging has become mainstream, and the telephone and email tapping abilities of old aren’t effective anymore.
- bubbasugga 10mo agoit had become mainstream about 15 years ago
- daft_pink 10mo agoIt’s too bad you can’t just choose your location with services like this. I want very secure email that’s US located because some of the contents are US regulated, I’m not worried about the US hacking me and I doubt if they really wanted my information I could do anytyhing to keep it from them. I’m sure there are people that would love Switzerland. To each their own.
- edent 10mo agoBitWarden offers users a choice of US or EU hosting.
- HelloUsername 10mo ago> BitWarden offers users a choice of US or EU hosting. So does NextDNS. But neither are email services.
- Y_Y 10mo ago... for Germany and Norway
- julenx 10mo ago> Wir haben angefangen, unsere gesamte Infrastruktur zu kopieren. Unsere Daten befinden sich nun auf Servern sowohl in der Schweiz wie auch in Deutschland und Norwegen. Wenn nötig, können wir die Systeme in der Schweiz innerhalb von kurzer Zeit herunterfahren. Ich hoffte immer, solche Schritte nie einleiten zu müssen. Aber das Umfeld in der Schweiz ist für uns zurzeit zu unsicher. Wir hatten keine andere Wahl, als unseren Wegzug zu planen. They started to copy the infrastructure, and the data is currently in Switzerland, Germany, and Norway. They can technically shut down the systems in Switzerland on short time. He (Andy Yen, CEO) always hoped they'd never need to take such steps, but the environment in Switzerland is too insecure for them at the moment. So they had no other choice but to plan their way out.
- starquake 10mo agoSo the title is incorrect? They haven't left Switzerland yet?
- dang 10mo agoWe've changed the submitted URL from https://www.nzz.ch/technologie/proton-ceo-andy-yen-wer-gesetzgebung-der-polizei-ueberlaesst-sollte-sich-nicht-wundern-wenn-er-eines-tages-in-einem-polizeistaat-aufwacht-ld.1916779 https://www.nzz.ch/technologie/proton-ceo-andy-yen-wer-geset... to a third-party article that seems to have more background. (Also, HN is an English-language site, so articles here should be in English - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20english%20language%20site&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... - even though we have deep respect for the German language and other languages)
- layer8 10mo agoThe original article is still very much worth reading, using the translation tools that are nowadays built into web browsers.
- garbawarb 10mo agoAre Germany and Norway better?
- sfc32 10mo agoAre they planning to payback all the Geneva cantonal and CERN money they took? I seem to recall that one of their original selling points was that they were based in Switzerland which does not have data sharing agreements with the US under the Patriot act, unlike the EU. Cynical view - they prefer to IPO in another market than Swiss, the real reason for the move.
- alephnerd 10mo ago> they prefer to IPO on another market than Swiss You can publicly list in exchanges despite not being domiciled in the exchange's host country. For example, Chinese and EU domiciled companies IPOing on the London Stock Exchange (LSE) due to a mix of easier access to liquidity and simplified rules and regulations.
- layer8 10mo agoThey are a non-profit, and they could actually get more subsidies if they moved their headquarters to the EU.
- fencepost 10mo agoThe future of data sharing with the US may be on shaky ground given the current US administration and its actions.
- hypeatei 10mo agoI used Proton at one point, but I realized that email is inherently insecure and any cloud storage can be E2EE if you encrypt the files yourself before uploading (which you should) It's nice to see that they're giving the finger to the Swiss government but ultimately it doesn't matter as many jurisdictions are mandating the same things.
- fsflover 10mo ago> any cloud storage can be E2EE if you encrypt the files yourself before uploading (which you should) Except the metadata I guess.
- mmooss 10mo agoAlso, the people with whom you email likely won't encrypt things on their end.
- fsflover 10mo agoDecentralized E2E instant messaging is the solution.
- rolph 10mo agoclient encryption is about keeping the MITM out of your fibre. if you are scared of spooks using metadata, that can be managed with some warwalking around cafes/campus, a wifi extender, a burner phone tether, and action in discretion. at that point WTF your doing had better be a noble cause, not a malediction.
- justsomehnguy 10mo ago> but I realized that email is inherently insecure I've always seen Proton benefits as a moot point because it's not E2E to the other side. You can encrypt all you want but as soon as you actually communicate with anyone (this is the email after all) you are now give all your messages to a third party often times without any encryption at all.
- iagooar 10mo agoThey leave for Germany, of all places. Germany is one of the European states with most arrests for posting entries on social media. I guess they will pack their stuff and move on in 1-2 years from now.
- why-o-why 10mo agoWhat were those posts about on social media? Care to share?
- Longhanks 10mo agoE.g. https://taz.de/Hausdurchsuchung-wegen-eines-Tweets/!5799732/ https://taz.de/Hausdurchsuchung-wegen-eines-Tweets/!5799732/
- input_sh 10mo agoThere is no arrest in that story?
- 1123581321 10mo agoIt was easy to find news stories. Here are a couple from neutral sources. https://apnews.com/article/germany-women-misogyny-raids-internet-hate-crime-31d3e61aab90bdce3f6f0d96e21d0fe4 https://apnews.com/article/germany-women-misogyny-raids-inte... https://www.yahoo.com/news/german-police-launch-nationwide-operation-061636979.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/german-police-launch-nationwide-o... It seems reasonable to be concerned about a government that wants the power to reveal Internet users, but I couldn’t say on what basis Proton expects legal protection to continue after the move.
- dbdr 10mo agoNeither of your links mention arrests, one specifically says "None of the suspects were detained". They don't seem to back up the original claim about Germany arresting the most people based on social media posts.
- dang 10mo agoRelated. Others? Swiss government look to undercut privacy tech stoking fear of mass surveillance - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45223231 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45223231 - Sept 2025 (3 comments) Proton begins moving hardware out of Switzerland due to proposed legislation - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44915796 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44915796 - Aug 2025 (5 comments) Proton Partially Exits Switzerland - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44669496 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44669496 - July 2025 (2 comments) Lumo: Privacy-first AI assistant - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44657556 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44657556 - July 2025 (123 comments) Proton threatens to quit Switzerland over new surveillance law - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44014808 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44014808 - May 2025 (228 comments) Tell HN: Swiss surveillance monitoring nearly everything – impact on Proton etc? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38937352 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38937352 - Jan 2024 (8 comments)
- rsync 10mo agoTheir CEO states: "(proton fraud detectors) are looking for certain patterns in use. And they collect clues on the dark web. For example, if you find Proton mail addresses in criminal Internet forums, the accounts behind them will be blocked."[1] I've never participated on a "dark web" or .onion forum but I could imagine doing so for a variety of reasons ... are there not very interesting discussions occurring there ? I would be classified as a criminal for being part of that discussion ? Should I be retroactively classified as such for my discussions on cypherpunks in the nineties ? [1] https://www.nzz.ch/technologie/proton-ceo-andy-yen-wer-gesetzgebung-der-polizei-ueberlaesst-sollte-sich-nicht-wundern-wenn-er-eines-tages-in-einem-polizeistaat-aufwacht-ld.1916779 https://www.nzz.ch/technologie/proton-ceo-andy-yen-wer-geset...
- bibimsz 10mo agoa malicious person could put your email address on there with the intention of getting you blocked
- aquariusDue 10mo agoI always believed stuff like Proton and Tutanota to pander to individuals who cared about privacy but who fell ultimately to their shiny marketing campaigns. Anyway most people would be better served when disavowing any notion that email is secure or that VPN services operated by companies (as opposed to ones you control) are good for anything other than bypassing region locks.