7 ms·

As a German, I find the popularity of heat pumps in the nordics especially amusing. In Germany heat pumps were an incredibly political topic and people were pus

by moooo99 10mo ago

As a German, I find the popularity of heat pumps in the nordics especially amusing. In Germany heat pumps were an incredibly political topic and people were pushed by some media outlets to really hate heat pumps. One recurring topic was that heat pumps can‘t work at German temperatures.

looofooo0 10mo ago
Well Norway (Hydro), Sweden (hydro and nuclear) and Finland (Nuclear Wind Hydro) all have cheap electricity which seems to be the main driver for adoption.
- mrmlz 10mo ago
  Hrm. It might be cheaper than in Germany but its not cheap in Sweden except for the most nordic parts (hydro). South Sweden - i think the prices are more on par with germany.
  - looofooo0 10mo ago
    Well in the south you might need to factor the gas cost in (vs Germany) and also the network effects of heat pump being the main form of heating in sweden.
    - willvarfar 10mo ago
      The south of Sweden is expensive because Sweden did away with the previous single energy market and split into zones with sales abroad. Often Swedish producers sell to Germany at the same time Swedish consumers are forced to buy from German producers. It was a big thing about 'free market' and iirc Denmark was upset that Danish manufacturing could not compete with the price of energy across the straights in Sweden. The solution was to make energy more expensive in Sweden.
      - looofooo0 10mo ago
        I was solely talking about heat pump adoption due end user prices.
        willvarfar 10mo ago
        I know I paid about 1000EUR for an air-air heat-pump with install in Sweden, but that was a decade ago and they cost 1500-2000EUR total these days. I also have a fancy big ground-source heat-pump bigger than most residential ones and that cost under 10000EUR total. So not sure what makes them so expensive in other countries; you'd hope competition kept prices competitive.
        mrmlz 10mo ago
        It is weird, especially since Germany usually is quite a bit cheaper when it comes to tools, construction materiel etc. compared to Sweden.
        looofooo0 10mo ago
        In Germany you have very strict laws for construction of water heating. For example the need to install thermostat on any heater even for floor heating. But this implies a lot of complexity for the heat pump installation. Cheap DIY community basically removes all the thermostats and soley controls heating through water temp and flow control to the radiators.
- 1313ed01 10mo ago
  Sweden used to have very cheap electricity. That's why there are so many houses with electric radiators. Far more expensive now. That is why so many houses here now have air-to-air heat pumps. That is by far the cheapest way to improve heating in an old house with only electric radiators and no existing water heat pipes.
lnsru 10mo ago
Nothing amusing. Germany is not really rich compared to nordics. And now let‘s do so math! Electricity: 0,3€/kWh and gas 0,1€/kWh. I need ~3x more gas to get same temperature in my room. And gas heating costs €10k while heat pump €40k without subsidies and probably raw €15k material cost if I install it by myself. So why should I pay more by €30k to install experimental thing for a decade when my low cost gas heating will last for 3 decades again. The monthly bill is the same.
- stefanfisk 10mo ago
  What is the calculus behind 40k? I just checked some Swedish vendors and here they calculate 12k for hardware and installation of a fairly large heat pump. https://www.polarpumpen.se/kunskapsbanken/varmepump-kunskapsbank/luft-vattenvarmepump-kunskapsbank/valja-luft-vattenvarmepump/rakna-pa-luft-vattenvarmepump/kostnad/ https://www.polarpumpen.se/kunskapsbanken/varmepump-kunskaps...
  - willvarfar 10mo ago
    Yeah small air-air pumps - which are the most common for single houses - are easily under 2000EUR including installation; if you keep eyes out for special offers it'd be about 1500EUR in Swedish prices.
  - lnsru 10mo ago
    State subsidies and insane overregulation. Think about replacing the cabinet for electricity meters (+4000€) for heat pump installation.
    - pjc50 10mo ago
      Why is that required? Switch to three phase? Wasn't required for me in the UK.
      - holowoodman 10mo ago
        No. Everything in Germany has been three-phase since forever. But especially with old houses, with any "not insignificant change" to your electrical setup, you have to bring everything up to modern standards. Also, and connected with that, metering is weird in Germany. If your consumption rises above a certain amount (I think 10MWh for a single-family home) you are required to get a "smart meter", meaning a digital meter which includes the possibility (just the possibility, not actually the real thing) of online reporting and minute-by-minute pricing. In the rest of the world, that would just be swapping the meter or slapping some Wifi-to-IR-interface on it, but not so in Germany. You need to install a new metering cabinet that provides space for at least one digital meter (but better provide more than one...), one remote control receiver (for old-style night/day tariff switches, obsoleted by smart meters but still required nonetheless) and a smart meter gateway. That new metering cabinet needs to conform to standards set by your local electricity supplier (which can be as small as a city), so there is no nation-wide standards, more like 50 of them. And the metering cabinet is huge, not someting like the 30x40cm thing you see on sidewalks in spain or something, no. More like 200x140cm in the smallest(!) version. So those are really expensive just because the market is tiny and the requirements are completely crazy: Even though most smart meter gateways are wireless nowadays (UMTS or GSM) and usually such a gateway won't be installed anyways (because just the possibility of installing one is required), you also need to provide for cabled internet uplink to the metering cabinet. That uplink is a Cat6 cable to the gateway, but it crosses through the electrical uplink part of the cabinet. So the insulation of that cable has to be certified for at least 10kV insulation voltage, at least 80A current on the shielding and more stuff like that. So e.g. just that one stupid half-meter Cat6 cable will set you back 50Eur. Installation isn't any less crazy. You definitely cannot do anything yourself. Even your licensed electrician can only do the menial preparations. When your licensed electrician is done with the prep, you request an appointment with the local supplier's meter installer, who, after a typical wait time of 2 months, will install and seal the meter in the presence of your licensed electrician (who is there to receive complaints about incorrect prep, followed by another 2 months wait time for another appointment...). That's why it's 4kEur... And if you want your power to be a few cents cheaper (28ct/kWh instead of the usual 35ct/kWh), you need an extra meter for your heat pump. Have solar? Another extra meter. Want to charge your electrical car? You guessed right. And you cannot bring your own. Each of those "smart" meters has to be rented from your local supplier at around 20 to 120Eur/year.
enaaem 10mo ago
Imagine if things were the other way around. That we already had heat pumps and someone suggests we should pipe this toxic and explosive gas into our homes and burn it. That would be an insane idea.

by moooo99 10mo ago

looofooo0 10mo ago

Well Norway (Hydro), Sweden (hydro and nuclear) and Finland (Nuclear Wind Hydro) all have cheap electricity which seems to be the main driver for adoption.

mrmlz 10mo ago
Hrm. It might be cheaper than in Germany but its not cheap in Sweden except for the most nordic parts (hydro). South Sweden - i think the prices are more on par with germany.
- looofooo0 10mo ago
  Well in the south you might need to factor the gas cost in (vs Germany) and also the network effects of heat pump being the main form of heating in sweden.
  - willvarfar 10mo ago
    The south of Sweden is expensive because Sweden did away with the previous single energy market and split into zones with sales abroad. Often Swedish producers sell to Germany at the same time Swedish consumers are forced to buy from German producers. It was a big thing about 'free market' and iirc Denmark was upset that Danish manufacturing could not compete with the price of energy across the straights in Sweden. The solution was to make energy more expensive in Sweden.
    - looofooo0 10mo ago
      I was solely talking about heat pump adoption due end user prices.
      - willvarfar 10mo ago
        I know I paid about 1000EUR for an air-air heat-pump with install in Sweden, but that was a decade ago and they cost 1500-2000EUR total these days. I also have a fancy big ground-source heat-pump bigger than most residential ones and that cost under 10000EUR total. So not sure what makes them so expensive in other countries; you'd hope competition kept prices competitive.
        mrmlz 10mo ago
        It is weird, especially since Germany usually is quite a bit cheaper when it comes to tools, construction materiel etc. compared to Sweden.
        looofooo0 10mo ago
        In Germany you have very strict laws for construction of water heating. For example the need to install thermostat on any heater even for floor heating. But this implies a lot of complexity for the heat pump installation. Cheap DIY community basically removes all the thermostats and soley controls heating through water temp and flow control to the radiators.
1313ed01 10mo ago
Sweden used to have very cheap electricity. That's why there are so many houses with electric radiators. Far more expensive now. That is why so many houses here now have air-to-air heat pumps. That is by far the cheapest way to improve heating in an old house with only electric radiators and no existing water heat pipes.

lnsru 10mo ago

Nothing amusing. Germany is not really rich compared to nordics. And now let‘s do so math! Electricity: 0,3€/kWh and gas 0,1€/kWh. I need ~3x more gas to get same temperature in my room. And gas heating costs €10k while heat pump €40k without subsidies and probably raw €15k material cost if I install it by myself. So why should I pay more by €30k to install experimental thing for a decade when my low cost gas heating will last for 3 decades again. The monthly bill is the same.

stefanfisk 10mo ago
What is the calculus behind 40k? I just checked some Swedish vendors and here they calculate 12k for hardware and installation of a fairly large heat pump. https://www.polarpumpen.se/kunskapsbanken/varmepump-kunskapsbank/luft-vattenvarmepump-kunskapsbank/valja-luft-vattenvarmepump/rakna-pa-luft-vattenvarmepump/kostnad/ https://www.polarpumpen.se/kunskapsbanken/varmepump-kunskaps...
- willvarfar 10mo ago
  Yeah small air-air pumps - which are the most common for single houses - are easily under 2000EUR including installation; if you keep eyes out for special offers it'd be about 1500EUR in Swedish prices.
- lnsru 10mo ago
  State subsidies and insane overregulation. Think about replacing the cabinet for electricity meters (+4000€) for heat pump installation.
  - pjc50 10mo ago
    Why is that required? Switch to three phase? Wasn't required for me in the UK.
    - holowoodman 10mo ago
      No. Everything in Germany has been three-phase since forever. But especially with old houses, with any "not insignificant change" to your electrical setup, you have to bring everything up to modern standards. Also, and connected with that, metering is weird in Germany. If your consumption rises above a certain amount (I think 10MWh for a single-family home) you are required to get a "smart meter", meaning a digital meter which includes the possibility (just the possibility, not actually the real thing) of online reporting and minute-by-minute pricing. In the rest of the world, that would just be swapping the meter or slapping some Wifi-to-IR-interface on it, but not so in Germany. You need to install a new metering cabinet that provides space for at least one digital meter (but better provide more than one...), one remote control receiver (for old-style night/day tariff switches, obsoleted by smart meters but still required nonetheless) and a smart meter gateway. That new metering cabinet needs to conform to standards set by your local electricity supplier (which can be as small as a city), so there is no nation-wide standards, more like 50 of them. And the metering cabinet is huge, not someting like the 30x40cm thing you see on sidewalks in spain or something, no. More like 200x140cm in the smallest(!) version. So those are really expensive just because the market is tiny and the requirements are completely crazy: Even though most smart meter gateways are wireless nowadays (UMTS or GSM) and usually such a gateway won't be installed anyways (because just the possibility of installing one is required), you also need to provide for cabled internet uplink to the metering cabinet. That uplink is a Cat6 cable to the gateway, but it crosses through the electrical uplink part of the cabinet. So the insulation of that cable has to be certified for at least 10kV insulation voltage, at least 80A current on the shielding and more stuff like that. So e.g. just that one stupid half-meter Cat6 cable will set you back 50Eur. Installation isn't any less crazy. You definitely cannot do anything yourself. Even your licensed electrician can only do the menial preparations. When your licensed electrician is done with the prep, you request an appointment with the local supplier's meter installer, who, after a typical wait time of 2 months, will install and seal the meter in the presence of your licensed electrician (who is there to receive complaints about incorrect prep, followed by another 2 months wait time for another appointment...). That's why it's 4kEur... And if you want your power to be a few cents cheaper (28ct/kWh instead of the usual 35ct/kWh), you need an extra meter for your heat pump. Have solar? Another extra meter. Want to charge your electrical car? You guessed right. And you cannot bring your own. Each of those "smart" meters has to be rented from your local supplier at around 20 to 120Eur/year.

enaaem 10mo ago

Imagine if things were the other way around. That we already had heat pumps and someone suggests we should pipe this toxic and explosive gas into our homes and burn it. That would be an insane idea.