6 ms·

A more positive-sum view is that the US is bringing the rest of the world up in science every time it exports a PhD.

by slwvx 10mo ago

M3L0NM4N 10mo ago
Depends pretty heavily on the destination of the export, i.e. not China.
- mattnewton 10mo ago
  not sure I understand, I read a lot of research papers from China.
  - sailfast 10mo ago
    My read: China is seen as a serious geopolitical rival that the United States must beat in a shooting or Cold or AI or <insert here> war. As a result PHDs to China as an export would be a negative impact, not a positive one potentially.
    - nobodyandproud 10mo ago
      When looking at China, this fable has been on my mind for the longest even as I’d hoped that market forces would liberalize it: https://fablesofaesop.com/the-eagle-and-the-arrow.html https://fablesofaesop.com/the-eagle-and-the-arrow.html Obviously, any hopes evaporated with China’s heavy-handed approach to Hong Kong.
      - komali2 10mo ago
        Or their constant threats against Taiwan, or their oppression of LGBT people in their borders, or their genocide against the Uighur Muslims in Xinjiang, or their heel-turn into racialized nationalism (Han Chauvinism).
    - seanmcdirmid 10mo ago
      America gave China its space (and ballistic missile) program when they deported Qian Xuesen in 1955.
      - M3L0NM4N 10mo ago
        That was a grave mistake, but there is no point in continuing to aid those programs with PhD exports.
    - M3L0NM4N 10mo ago
      Correct, didn't think I would have to spell that one out.
  - kragen 10mo ago
    Yeah, I read a lot of research papers from China too.
SimianSci 10mo ago
While indeed a positive outlook, I think alot of Americans are beginning to wonder what the benefit will be to them. The isolationist and xenophobic rhetoric of recent years is mostly a reaction to a growing sense that increasingly few Americans are benefiting from global goodwill and development. While I dont agree with the sentiment, its not entirely incorrect to describe such relationships are parasitic more then symbiotic when they become increasingly one-sided. Why should Americans be exporting PHDs to other countries when they dont seem to be reaping the benefits?
- integralid 10mo ago
  The US is not "exporting" anything. PhDs are people, they pay for their education and they leave. Nevertheless responding to your question: >Contrary to common perceptions, US technology benefits from these graduates' work even if they leave: though the US share of global patent citations to graduates' science drops from 70% to 50% after migrating, it remains five times larger than the destination country share
  - ribosometronome 10mo ago
    Isn't that how exporting works? People buy something in one place and take it another?
  - selimthegrim 10mo ago
    STEM PhD students do not pay for their education
    - vannevar 10mo ago
      This is manifestly not true. What leads you to believe this? Certainly there are some who don't, just as with undergraduate education. But there's no blanket program in the US to pay for all STEM PhDs.
      - kragen 10mo ago
        All of the dozens of US STEM PhDs I know from recent decades had to pay their tuition by working as TAs, RAs, or usually both. They didn't walk in the door with a trust fund, work through the coursework, and then write up a dissertation. I'm not sure that's even a possibility in most STEM fields: you need access to millions of dollars of ultra-specialized equipment which you can realistically only get by working in an existing lab, which means being an RA.
sharpy 10mo ago
I wonder if US still manages to keep the most promising?
- seanmcdirmid 10mo ago
  Yes, but today less so than yesterday? We also are benefiting less from the top students with state funded undergraduate education in China and India.
  - alephnerd 10mo ago
    On top of that, it is a significant reverse brain drain. Like 20-25 years ago you'd be hard pressed to find tenure track CS faculty at most America programs let alone a major program lime Cal or UIUC consider returning to a program like Shanghai Jiao Tong or IIT Bombay compared to today. It has upskilled academia in those countries, but we also lost talent who could have remained here.
    - seanmcdirmid 10mo ago
      It is it really our talent though? The US has been so addicted to China and India for STEM talent for so long that...what did they expect was going to happen? And the effect is much more prominent for China than India: China has a lot of money to dump into modernizing while India is still a relatively poor country. Imagine what will happen when India gets richer as well?
      - alephnerd 10mo ago
        Based on personal experience (friends who either entered academia/industry or me being the son of white collar immigrants to the US) I'd say large portion want to return to China and India due to family ties, but a number would have stayed in the US if immigration wasn't such a PITA - especially because companies and programs don't really like filing for an O-1s unless they found a unicorn. You hit the nail on the head on developing countries not being as poor anymore, and opportunties proliferating which reduces the pull factor, but there are a decent amount of academics and professionals who would gladly work in the US if given the opportunity and it wasn't such a headache.

A more positive-sum view is that the US is bringing the rest of the world up in science every time it exports a PhD.

by slwvx 10mo ago

A more positive-sum view is that the US is bringing the rest of the world up in science every time it exports a PhD.

M3L0NM4N 10mo ago

Depends pretty heavily on the destination of the export, i.e. not China.

mattnewton 10mo ago
not sure I understand, I read a lot of research papers from China.
- sailfast 10mo ago
  My read: China is seen as a serious geopolitical rival that the United States must beat in a shooting or Cold or AI or <insert here> war. As a result PHDs to China as an export would be a negative impact, not a positive one potentially.
  - nobodyandproud 10mo ago
    When looking at China, this fable has been on my mind for the longest even as I’d hoped that market forces would liberalize it: https://fablesofaesop.com/the-eagle-and-the-arrow.html https://fablesofaesop.com/the-eagle-and-the-arrow.html Obviously, any hopes evaporated with China’s heavy-handed approach to Hong Kong.
    - komali2 10mo ago
      Or their constant threats against Taiwan, or their oppression of LGBT people in their borders, or their genocide against the Uighur Muslims in Xinjiang, or their heel-turn into racialized nationalism (Han Chauvinism).
  - seanmcdirmid 10mo ago
    America gave China its space (and ballistic missile) program when they deported Qian Xuesen in 1955.
    - M3L0NM4N 10mo ago
      That was a grave mistake, but there is no point in continuing to aid those programs with PhD exports.
  - M3L0NM4N 10mo ago
    Correct, didn't think I would have to spell that one out.
- kragen 10mo ago
  Yeah, I read a lot of research papers from China too.

SimianSci 10mo ago

While indeed a positive outlook, I think alot of Americans are beginning to wonder what the benefit will be to them. The isolationist and xenophobic rhetoric of recent years is mostly a reaction to a growing sense that increasingly few Americans are benefiting from global goodwill and development. While I dont agree with the sentiment, its not entirely incorrect to describe such relationships are parasitic more then symbiotic when they become increasingly one-sided. Why should Americans be exporting PHDs to other countries when they dont seem to be reaping the benefits?

integralid 10mo ago
The US is not "exporting" anything. PhDs are people, they pay for their education and they leave. Nevertheless responding to your question: >Contrary to common perceptions, US technology benefits from these graduates' work even if they leave: though the US share of global patent citations to graduates' science drops from 70% to 50% after migrating, it remains five times larger than the destination country share
- ribosometronome 10mo ago
  Isn't that how exporting works? People buy something in one place and take it another?
- selimthegrim 10mo ago
  STEM PhD students do not pay for their education
  - vannevar 10mo ago
    This is manifestly not true. What leads you to believe this? Certainly there are some who don't, just as with undergraduate education. But there's no blanket program in the US to pay for all STEM PhDs.
    - kragen 10mo ago
      All of the dozens of US STEM PhDs I know from recent decades had to pay their tuition by working as TAs, RAs, or usually both. They didn't walk in the door with a trust fund, work through the coursework, and then write up a dissertation. I'm not sure that's even a possibility in most STEM fields: you need access to millions of dollars of ultra-specialized equipment which you can realistically only get by working in an existing lab, which means being an RA.

sharpy 10mo ago

I wonder if US still manages to keep the most promising?

seanmcdirmid 10mo ago
Yes, but today less so than yesterday? We also are benefiting less from the top students with state funded undergraduate education in China and India.
- alephnerd 10mo ago
  On top of that, it is a significant reverse brain drain. Like 20-25 years ago you'd be hard pressed to find tenure track CS faculty at most America programs let alone a major program lime Cal or UIUC consider returning to a program like Shanghai Jiao Tong or IIT Bombay compared to today. It has upskilled academia in those countries, but we also lost talent who could have remained here.
  - seanmcdirmid 10mo ago
    It is it really our talent though? The US has been so addicted to China and India for STEM talent for so long that...what did they expect was going to happen? And the effect is much more prominent for China than India: China has a lot of money to dump into modernizing while India is still a relatively poor country. Imagine what will happen when India gets richer as well?
    - alephnerd 10mo ago
      Based on personal experience (friends who either entered academia/industry or me being the son of white collar immigrants to the US) I'd say large portion want to return to China and India due to family ties, but a number would have stayed in the US if immigration wasn't such a PITA - especially because companies and programs don't really like filing for an O-1s unless they found a unicorn. You hit the nail on the head on developing countries not being as poor anymore, and opportunties proliferating which reduces the pull factor, but there are a decent amount of academics and professionals who would gladly work in the US if given the opportunity and it wasn't such a headache.