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I agree. First of all I don't think Ada is a difficult language to learn. Hire C++ programmers and let them learn Ada. Secondly, when companies say "we can't h

by IshKebab 11mo ago

I agree. First of all I don't think Ada is a difficult language to learn. Hire C++ programmers and let them learn Ada. Secondly, when companies say "we can't hire enough X" what they really mean is "X are too expensive". They probably have some strict salary bands and nobody had the power to change them. In other words there are plenty of expensive good Ada and C++ programmers, but there are only cheap crap C++ programmers.

skepti 11mo ago
As I wrote to someone else: Why require that companies use a specific programming language instead of requiring that the end product is good? > And the F35 and America's combat readiness would be in a better place today with Ada instead of C++. What is the evidence for this? Companies selling Ada products would almost certainly agree, since they have a horse in the race. Ada does not automatically lead to better, more robust, safer or fully correct software. Your line of argument is dangerous and dishonest, as real life regrettably shows.[0] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariane_flight_V88 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariane_flight_V88 > The failure has become known as one of the most infamous and expensive software bugs in history.[2] The failure resulted in a loss of more than US$370 million.[3] > The launch failure brought the high risks associated with complex computing systems to the attention of the general public, politicians, and executives, resulting in increased support for research on ensuring the reliability of safety-critical systems. The subsequent automated analysis of the Ariane code (written in Ada) was the first example of large-scale static code analysis by abstract interpretation.[9]
- zeroc8 11mo ago
  Ada and especially Spark makes it a whole lot easier to produce correct software. That doesn't mean it automatically leads to better software. The programming language is just a small piece of the puzzle. But an important one.
  - skepti2 11mo ago
    > Ada and especially Spark makes it a whole lot easier to produce correct software. Relative to what? There are formal verification tools for other languages. I have heard Ada/SPARK is good, but I do not know the veracity of that. And Ada companies promoting Ada have horses in the race. And Ada didn't prevent the Ada code in Ariane 5 from being a disaster. > The programming language is just a small piece of the puzzle. But an important one. 100% true, but the parent of the original post that he agreed with said: > And the F35 and America's combat readiness would be in a better place today with Ada instead of C++. What is the proof for that, especially considering events like Ariane 5? And Ada arguably has technical and non-technical drawbacks relative to many other languages. When I tried Ada some weeks ago for a tiny example, I found it cumbersome in some ways. Is the syntax worse and more verbose than even C++? Maybe that is just a learning thing, though. Even with a mandate, Ada did not catch on.
    - serf 11mo ago
      >What is the proof for that, especially considering events like Ariane 5? Ariane 5 is a nice anti-ada catchphrase, but ada is probably the most used language for war machines in the United States. now the argument can be whether or not the US military is superior to X; but the fact that the largest military in the world is filled to the brim with warmachines running ada code is testament itself to the effectiveness of the language/dod/grant structure around the language. would it be better off in c++? I don't know about that one way or the other , but it's silly pretend ada isn't successful.
      - skepti2 11mo ago
        But Ada had for a number of years a mandate to require its usage [0]. That should have been an extreme competitive advantage. And even then, C++ is still used these days for some US military projects, like F-35. Though I don't know whether the F-35 is successful or not, if it is not, that could be an argument against C++. Ada is almost non-existent outside its niche. The main companies arguing for Ada appear to be the ones selling Ada services, meaning they have a horse in the race. I barely have any experience at all with Ada. My main impression is that it, like C++, is very old. [0]: https://www.militaryaerospace.com/communications/article/16710265/dod-officials-eye-scrapping-mandate-to-use-ada-programming https://www.militaryaerospace.com/communications/article/167... > The Defense Department`s chief of computers, Emmett Paige Jr., is recommending a rescission of the DOD`s mandate to use the Ada programming language for real-time, mission-critical weapons and information systems.
blub 11mo ago
Actually these kinds of projects are chronically over budget and the US military is notorious for wasting money. Using C++ vs wishing an Ada ecosystem into existence may have been one of the few successful cost saving measures. Keep in mind that these are not normal programmers. They need to have a security clearance and fulfill specific requirements.
- reactordev 11mo ago
  They need to have very strict security clearance requirements and maintain them throughout the life of the project or their tenure. People don’t realize this isn’t some little embedded app you throw on an ESP32. You’ll be interviewed, your family, your neighbors, your school teachers, your past bosses, your cousin once removed, your sheriff, your past lovers, and even your old childhood friends. Your life goes under a microscope.
  - nmfisher 11mo ago
    I went through the TS positive vetting process (for signals intelligence, not writing software for fighter jets, but the process is presumably the same). If I were back on the job market, I’d be demanding a big premium to go through it again. It’s very intrusive, puts significant limitations on where you can go, and adds significant job uncertainty (since your job is now tied to your clearance).
    - reactordev 11mo ago
      Yes but like a certification, that clearance is yours, not the companies. You take it with you. It lasts a good while. There are plenty of government companies that would love you if you had one. Northrop, Lockheed, Boeing, etc.
      - ecshafer 11mo ago
        An Engineering degree and a TS is basically a guaranteed job. They might not be the flashiest FAANG jobs, but it is job security. In this downturn where people talk about being unable to find jobs for years in big cities, I look around my local area and Lockheed, BAE, Booze Allen, etc they have openings.
jll29 11mo ago
I agree - Ada is very similar to Pascal, and much faster to pick up than, say, C++.
- zeroc8 11mo ago
  C++ is not that hard to pick up. But writing error free C++ code is hard as hell.
  - zenlot 11mo ago
    [dead]
deleted 11mo ago
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skepti 11mo ago

As I wrote to someone else: Why require that companies use a specific programming language instead of requiring that the end product is good? > And the F35 and America's combat readiness would be in a better place today with Ada instead of C++. What is the evidence for this? Companies selling Ada products would almost certainly agree, since they have a horse in the race. Ada does not automatically lead to better, more robust, safer or fully correct software. Your line of argument is dangerous and dishonest, as real life regrettably shows.[0] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariane_flight_V88 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariane_flight_V88 > The failure has become known as one of the most infamous and expensive software bugs in history.[2] The failure resulted in a loss of more than US$370 million.[3] > The launch failure brought the high risks associated with complex computing systems to the attention of the general public, politicians, and executives, resulting in increased support for research on ensuring the reliability of safety-critical systems. The subsequent automated analysis of the Ariane code (written in Ada) was the first example of large-scale static code analysis by abstract interpretation.[9]

zeroc8 11mo ago
Ada and especially Spark makes it a whole lot easier to produce correct software. That doesn't mean it automatically leads to better software. The programming language is just a small piece of the puzzle. But an important one.
- skepti2 11mo ago
  > Ada and especially Spark makes it a whole lot easier to produce correct software. Relative to what? There are formal verification tools for other languages. I have heard Ada/SPARK is good, but I do not know the veracity of that. And Ada companies promoting Ada have horses in the race. And Ada didn't prevent the Ada code in Ariane 5 from being a disaster. > The programming language is just a small piece of the puzzle. But an important one. 100% true, but the parent of the original post that he agreed with said: > And the F35 and America's combat readiness would be in a better place today with Ada instead of C++. What is the proof for that, especially considering events like Ariane 5? And Ada arguably has technical and non-technical drawbacks relative to many other languages. When I tried Ada some weeks ago for a tiny example, I found it cumbersome in some ways. Is the syntax worse and more verbose than even C++? Maybe that is just a learning thing, though. Even with a mandate, Ada did not catch on.
  - serf 11mo ago
    >What is the proof for that, especially considering events like Ariane 5? Ariane 5 is a nice anti-ada catchphrase, but ada is probably the most used language for war machines in the United States. now the argument can be whether or not the US military is superior to X; but the fact that the largest military in the world is filled to the brim with warmachines running ada code is testament itself to the effectiveness of the language/dod/grant structure around the language. would it be better off in c++? I don't know about that one way or the other , but it's silly pretend ada isn't successful.
    - skepti2 11mo ago
      But Ada had for a number of years a mandate to require its usage [0]. That should have been an extreme competitive advantage. And even then, C++ is still used these days for some US military projects, like F-35. Though I don't know whether the F-35 is successful or not, if it is not, that could be an argument against C++. Ada is almost non-existent outside its niche. The main companies arguing for Ada appear to be the ones selling Ada services, meaning they have a horse in the race. I barely have any experience at all with Ada. My main impression is that it, like C++, is very old. [0]: https://www.militaryaerospace.com/communications/article/16710265/dod-officials-eye-scrapping-mandate-to-use-ada-programming https://www.militaryaerospace.com/communications/article/167... > The Defense Department`s chief of computers, Emmett Paige Jr., is recommending a rescission of the DOD`s mandate to use the Ada programming language for real-time, mission-critical weapons and information systems.

blub 11mo ago

Actually these kinds of projects are chronically over budget and the US military is notorious for wasting money. Using C++ vs wishing an Ada ecosystem into existence may have been one of the few successful cost saving measures. Keep in mind that these are not normal programmers. They need to have a security clearance and fulfill specific requirements.

reactordev 11mo ago
They need to have very strict security clearance requirements and maintain them throughout the life of the project or their tenure. People don’t realize this isn’t some little embedded app you throw on an ESP32. You’ll be interviewed, your family, your neighbors, your school teachers, your past bosses, your cousin once removed, your sheriff, your past lovers, and even your old childhood friends. Your life goes under a microscope.
- nmfisher 11mo ago
  I went through the TS positive vetting process (for signals intelligence, not writing software for fighter jets, but the process is presumably the same). If I were back on the job market, I’d be demanding a big premium to go through it again. It’s very intrusive, puts significant limitations on where you can go, and adds significant job uncertainty (since your job is now tied to your clearance).
  - reactordev 11mo ago
    Yes but like a certification, that clearance is yours, not the companies. You take it with you. It lasts a good while. There are plenty of government companies that would love you if you had one. Northrop, Lockheed, Boeing, etc.
    - ecshafer 11mo ago
      An Engineering degree and a TS is basically a guaranteed job. They might not be the flashiest FAANG jobs, but it is job security. In this downturn where people talk about being unable to find jobs for years in big cities, I look around my local area and Lockheed, BAE, Booze Allen, etc they have openings.

jll29 11mo ago

I agree - Ada is very similar to Pascal, and much faster to pick up than, say, C++.

zeroc8 11mo ago
C++ is not that hard to pick up. But writing error free C++ code is hard as hell.
- zenlot 11mo ago
  [dead]

deleted 11mo ago

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