6 ms·

They lead with the headline that most of these students have a mental health disability - particularly ADHD. Is it surprising that legalized Amphetamines drive

by lumost 11mo ago

They lead with the headline that most of these students have a mental health disability - particularly ADHD. Is it surprising that legalized Amphetamines drive teenagers to higher performance for a short period in their lives? Adderall and other amphetamines only have problems with long term usage. It should be expected that some portion of the teenage population sees a net-benefit from Amphetamines for the duration of late high school/college. It's unlikely that that net-benefit holds for the rest of their lives.

notrealyme123 11mo ago
Wow that's interesting! Could you share your sources?
- only-one1701 11mo ago
  I’m not sure what you mean by “interesting”, can you please explain, ideally by citing a few reputable dictionaries?
  - bad_haircut72 11mo ago
    I dont know why you're getting downvoted, I see this all the time and its infuriating. Its a deflection tactic to burn peoples time.
    - only-one1701 11mo ago
      I think you answered your own question as to why this is getting downvoted lol
      - bad_haircut72 11mo ago
        The person I replied to was clearly using sarcasm
- mikkupikku 11mo ago
  Source for amphetamines being a performance enhancing drug? Try some lol. Really, they're habit forming and destructive so don't take them, but the reason they're so popular is they really do kick you up.
  - Aurornis 11mo ago
    > Try some lol. Trying amphetamines classically gives short-term euphoria and confidence boost. There have been a few studies on this. If you give college students amphetamines they will report performing dramatically better, but their actual performance is maybe slightly improved at best and some measures are worsened: https://www.mdpi.com/2226-4787/6/3/58 https://www.mdpi.com/2226-4787/6/3/58 The notable thing is that they all report doing much better despite the actual results not matching their self-assessment. So don't "try some" and then think you're going to be speeding around like a superhuman for the rest of your life if you get a prescription.
izacus 11mo ago
It's much more likely that ADHD diagnosis is easier to get when trying to get disability benefits and has practically no downsides for the student. It's much harder to fake deafness or blindness to get that extra housing and exam benefits.
ultrarunner 11mo ago
> Adderall and other amphetamines only have problems with long term usage. My research was done a long time ago. I understood Ritalin to have mild neurotoxic effects, but Adderall et al to be essentially harmless. Do you have a source for the benefits giving way to problems long-term? Regardless, your overall point is interesting. Presumably, these drugs are (ridiculously tightly) controlled to prevent society-wide harm. If that ostensible harm isn't reflected in reality, and there is a net benefit in having a certain age group accelerate (and, presumably, deepen) their education, perhaps this type of overwhelming regulatory control is a mistake. In that sense, it's a shame that these policies are imposed federally, as comparative data would be helpful.
- Aurornis 11mo ago
  > I understood Ritalin to have mild neurotoxic effects, but Adderall et al to be essentially harmless. There is no conclusive research on humans, but you have these backwards. Ritalin (methylphenidate) is thought to have less risk for neurotoxicity than Adderall (amphetamine). Amphetamine enters the neuron and disrupts some internal functions as part of its mechanism of action, while Ritalin does not. Both drugs will induce tolerance, though. The early motivation-enhancing effects don't last very long. There are also some entertaining studies where researchers give one group of students placebo and another group of students Adderall, then have them self-rate their performance. The Adderall group rates themselves as having done much better, despite performing the same on the test. If you've ever seen the confidence boost that comes from people taking their first stimulant doses, this won't come as a big surprise. These early effects (euphoria, excess energy) dissipate with long-term treatment, but it fools a lot of early users and students who borrow a couple pills from a friend.
  - frumplestlatz 11mo ago
    > The early motivation-enhancing effects don't last very long. They lasted me 12 years so far. Same dosage. > The Adderall group rates themselves as having done much better, despite performing the same on the test. A feeling of euphoria means your dosage is too high, and people without ADHD probably shouldn’t take these drugs. If the studies involved people that were on the drugs normally, it’s also not a particularly surprising result. The drugs induce a very real chemical dependency, and you will not feel like yourself or that you are performing when you are off of them. That is honestly my only complaint. Without the drug, I am essentially a vegetable. If I go cold turkey, I can barely stay awake. However, it’s still a lot better than my life was before.
dathinab 11mo ago
there is so much wrong with the first few paragraphs of this article 1. some of the things they list as "disabilities" are sicknesses which _can_ be disabling but not per see disabilities 2. all of the things listed aren't one/off but have not just huge gradients, but huge variations. You might be afflicted in a way which "disables" you from living a normal live or job but still might be able to handle university due to how it differs. 3. non of the things list is per-see/directly reducing your ability to have deep understanding in a specialized field. ADHD sometimes comes with hyper focus, which if it manifest in the right way can help you in university. It's also might make more "traditionally structured jobs" hardly possible for you and bad luck with how professors handle their courses is more likely to screw you over. Anxiety is often enough more topic specific, e.g. social anxiety. This means it can be disabling for many normal jobs but not affect you in universities which don't require you physical presence, but if they do you basically wait out the course and then learn after being back home. In rare cases it can also help with crunch learning before an exam. Etc. etc. Actually if we go a step future all of the named health issues can make it more likely for you to end up in high standard universities. Hyper focus on specific topics from ADHD might have started your journey into science even as a child. Anxiety might have lead to you studying more. Since might have been an escape from a painful reality which later lead to you developing depression. If we consider how high standard universities can cause a lot of stress which can cause an out brake of anxiety or depression in some people it just is another data point why we would expect higher number of health issues (if you lump a bunch of very different issues together like they do). Later they then also throw in autism in the list of mental issues, even through autism always had been higher represented in academia due to how it sometimes comes with "special interests" and make socializing as a child harder, i.e. it can lead to a child very early and very long term focusing on scientific topics out of their fully own interest. (But it doesn't have to, it can also thoroughly destroy you live to a point "learning to cope with it" isn't possible anymore and you are basically crippled as long as you don't luck out massively with your job and environment.) Honestly the whole article has a undertone of people with "autism, ADHD, anxiety, depression" shouldn't be "elite" university and any accommodations for them should be cut. Now to be fair accommodations have to be reasonable and you have to learn to cope with your issues. Idk. how they are handled in the US, but from what I have seen in the EU that is normally the case. E.g. with dyslexia and subtle nerve damage making hand writing harder I could have gotten a slight time extensions for any non-multiple choice exams. I didn't bother because it didn't matter all (but one) exams where done in a way where if you know the topic well you can finish in 60-70% of the time and if you don't even 3x time would not help you much (and the extension was like flat 15min). That is except if my nerve damage or dyslexia where worse then I really would have needed the time, not for solving questions but for writing down answers. There was one exam which tested more if you had crammed in all knowledge then testing understanding, in that exam due to dyslexia and my hands not being able to write quite as fast as normal I actually last some points, not because I didn't know but because I wasn't able to write fast enough. The point here is if done well people which don't need accommodations shouldn't have a huge benefits even if they get them, but people needing it not getting it can mean punishing them for thing unrelated to actual skills. Live will do so enough after university, no need to force it into universities which should focus on excellence of knowledge and understanding.

by lumost 11mo ago

notrealyme123 11mo ago

Wow that's interesting! Could you share your sources?

only-one1701 11mo ago
I’m not sure what you mean by “interesting”, can you please explain, ideally by citing a few reputable dictionaries?
- bad_haircut72 11mo ago
  I dont know why you're getting downvoted, I see this all the time and its infuriating. Its a deflection tactic to burn peoples time.
  - only-one1701 11mo ago
    I think you answered your own question as to why this is getting downvoted lol
    - bad_haircut72 11mo ago
      The person I replied to was clearly using sarcasm
mikkupikku 11mo ago
Source for amphetamines being a performance enhancing drug? Try some lol. Really, they're habit forming and destructive so don't take them, but the reason they're so popular is they really do kick you up.
- Aurornis 11mo ago
  > Try some lol. Trying amphetamines classically gives short-term euphoria and confidence boost. There have been a few studies on this. If you give college students amphetamines they will report performing dramatically better, but their actual performance is maybe slightly improved at best and some measures are worsened: https://www.mdpi.com/2226-4787/6/3/58 https://www.mdpi.com/2226-4787/6/3/58 The notable thing is that they all report doing much better despite the actual results not matching their self-assessment. So don't "try some" and then think you're going to be speeding around like a superhuman for the rest of your life if you get a prescription.

izacus 11mo ago

It's much more likely that ADHD diagnosis is easier to get when trying to get disability benefits and has practically no downsides for the student. It's much harder to fake deafness or blindness to get that extra housing and exam benefits.

ultrarunner 11mo ago

> Adderall and other amphetamines only have problems with long term usage. My research was done a long time ago. I understood Ritalin to have mild neurotoxic effects, but Adderall et al to be essentially harmless. Do you have a source for the benefits giving way to problems long-term? Regardless, your overall point is interesting. Presumably, these drugs are (ridiculously tightly) controlled to prevent society-wide harm. If that ostensible harm isn't reflected in reality, and there is a net benefit in having a certain age group accelerate (and, presumably, deepen) their education, perhaps this type of overwhelming regulatory control is a mistake. In that sense, it's a shame that these policies are imposed federally, as comparative data would be helpful.

Aurornis 11mo ago
> I understood Ritalin to have mild neurotoxic effects, but Adderall et al to be essentially harmless. There is no conclusive research on humans, but you have these backwards. Ritalin (methylphenidate) is thought to have less risk for neurotoxicity than Adderall (amphetamine). Amphetamine enters the neuron and disrupts some internal functions as part of its mechanism of action, while Ritalin does not. Both drugs will induce tolerance, though. The early motivation-enhancing effects don't last very long. There are also some entertaining studies where researchers give one group of students placebo and another group of students Adderall, then have them self-rate their performance. The Adderall group rates themselves as having done much better, despite performing the same on the test. If you've ever seen the confidence boost that comes from people taking their first stimulant doses, this won't come as a big surprise. These early effects (euphoria, excess energy) dissipate with long-term treatment, but it fools a lot of early users and students who borrow a couple pills from a friend.
- frumplestlatz 11mo ago
  > The early motivation-enhancing effects don't last very long. They lasted me 12 years so far. Same dosage. > The Adderall group rates themselves as having done much better, despite performing the same on the test. A feeling of euphoria means your dosage is too high, and people without ADHD probably shouldn’t take these drugs. If the studies involved people that were on the drugs normally, it’s also not a particularly surprising result. The drugs induce a very real chemical dependency, and you will not feel like yourself or that you are performing when you are off of them. That is honestly my only complaint. Without the drug, I am essentially a vegetable. If I go cold turkey, I can barely stay awake. However, it’s still a lot better than my life was before.

dathinab 11mo ago

there is so much wrong with the first few paragraphs of this article 1. some of the things they list as "disabilities" are sicknesses which _can_ be disabling but not per see disabilities 2. all of the things listed aren't one/off but have not just huge gradients, but huge variations. You might be afflicted in a way which "disables" you from living a normal live or job but still might be able to handle university due to how it differs. 3. non of the things list is per-see/directly reducing your ability to have deep understanding in a specialized field. ADHD sometimes comes with hyper focus, which if it manifest in the right way can help you in university. It's also might make more "traditionally structured jobs" hardly possible for you and bad luck with how professors handle their courses is more likely to screw you over. Anxiety is often enough more topic specific, e.g. social anxiety. This means it can be disabling for many normal jobs but not affect you in universities which don't require you physical presence, but if they do you basically wait out the course and then learn after being back home. In rare cases it can also help with crunch learning before an exam. Etc. etc. Actually if we go a step future all of the named health issues can make it more likely for you to end up in high standard universities. Hyper focus on specific topics from ADHD might have started your journey into science even as a child. Anxiety might have lead to you studying more. Since might have been an escape from a painful reality which later lead to you developing depression. If we consider how high standard universities can cause a lot of stress which can cause an out brake of anxiety or depression in some people it just is another data point why we would expect higher number of health issues (if you lump a bunch of very different issues together like they do). Later they then also throw in autism in the list of mental issues, even through autism always had been higher represented in academia due to how it sometimes comes with "special interests" and make socializing as a child harder, i.e. it can lead to a child very early and very long term focusing on scientific topics out of their fully own interest. (But it doesn't have to, it can also thoroughly destroy you live to a point "learning to cope with it" isn't possible anymore and you are basically crippled as long as you don't luck out massively with your job and environment.) Honestly the whole article has a undertone of people with "autism, ADHD, anxiety, depression" shouldn't be "elite" university and any accommodations for them should be cut. Now to be fair accommodations have to be reasonable and you have to learn to cope with your issues. Idk. how they are handled in the US, but from what I have seen in the EU that is normally the case. E.g. with dyslexia and subtle nerve damage making hand writing harder I could have gotten a slight time extensions for any non-multiple choice exams. I didn't bother because it didn't matter all (but one) exams where done in a way where if you know the topic well you can finish in 60-70% of the time and if you don't even 3x time would not help you much (and the extension was like flat 15min). That is except if my nerve damage or dyslexia where worse then I really would have needed the time, not for solving questions but for writing down answers. There was one exam which tested more if you had crammed in all knowledge then testing understanding, in that exam due to dyslexia and my hands not being able to write quite as fast as normal I actually last some points, not because I didn't know but because I wasn't able to write fast enough. The point here is if done well people which don't need accommodations shouldn't have a huge benefits even if they get them, but people needing it not getting it can mean punishing them for thing unrelated to actual skills. Live will do so enough after university, no need to force it into universities which should focus on excellence of knowledge and understanding.