5 ms·

You can provide the piece of paper at a fraction of the cost too. Nearly all of Europe does, I believe.

by Aeolun 11mo ago

crossbody 11mo ago
Did Europe find a cheat code that gets free $$$ for education? Nothing is free - once you graduate you are hit with 50% tax that gets back all you "free" tuition costs many, many times over. Not saying education should not be subsidized via taxes (I think it's good overall), but it's not free at all - the price is just hidden and spread out over many years (similar to student loans but less visible).
- ahartmetz 11mo ago
  Was it much more subsidized in the US when it was much cheaper, though?
  - crossbody 11mo ago
    I'd reword the question: "was college paid for via higher income taxes for graduates (and others) or via a more direct approach of student loan taking?". I believe the latter but I don't see the fundamental difference. It's the same student loan but hidden from sight, as it's packaged as higher tax %
    - xethos 11mo ago
      > don't see the fundamental difference You're kidding. The former means all higher net worth individuals to take on both the cost (via taxes) and the benefit (a well-trained workforce for businesses, well-paid, highly taxed contributors for the state, an educated populace of voters, graduates with stable work and in-demand skills). The latter is another example of America's "Everyone for themselves" theme, with students bearing the entire cost of their education, while the graduate, public, state, and businesses reap the benefit. If the benefits are spread so widely, why shouldn't the cost be?
      - crossbody 11mo ago
        The students bear costs but no benefit to themselves? No higher wages? My point is that it doesn't matter in principle if one takes a loan and pays it down over time vs. one is taxed at much higher % and that tax "pays down" a phantom student loan of "free" education. It does introduce a risk and hence the incentive for loan takers to choose their degree wisely though. Which should lead to better allocation of labor but at a cost of some personal risk.
        xethos 11mo ago
        I actually included the graduate as a beneficiary ("a well-paid, highly taxed contributor" or "the graduate" in the counter), but more importantly: The entirety of society benefits from a well-educated populace. That's one reason even those without children pay for public education. Following that, if everyone benefits, why is the graduate taking on all the risk (via a non-dischargeable student loan) instead of spreading the risk across the entirety of society?
        crossbody 11mo ago
        Ok, I overlooked that. I think that's fair that risk should be more spread. Comes at a cost of people choosing degrees more frivolously though and wasting their time and everyone's money
        xethos 11mo ago
        I'd like to push back on "useless" degrees here, as well. The idea that degrees that leave graduates struggling to pay their bills (especially with student loans factored in) are worse than degrees that maximize income is bad for society. Not every job that is good for society pays well - if they did, educators would be better paid, and many executives would not be compensated as well as they are. Some degrees are less in-demand (at time of graduation) economically, but a well-educated populace that can apply critical thinking and remember lessons from history, can be its own reward. Notably, pushing for a population completely lacking these skills is an excellent way to topple a democracy over time.
- surgical_fire 11mo ago
  That's what taxes are for. Subsidizing public good. Affordable access to good education is a good outcome from the heavy taxation I pay.
  - crossbody 11mo ago
    For sure. The main benefit is that it allows smart, hardworking but poor students to get a degree and utilize their brainpower productively for the benefit of all. That's great. Just don't say it's "free" - those who get the education pay back all they got via taxes (which in it's end effect are like paying down a student loan).
    - surgical_fire 11mo ago
      Absolutely. I never would say it is "free". But in many ways it is a matter of what one values. I had opportunities to move to the US and likely make 2x-3x what I make here and pay less taxes. I chose moving to Europe instead. It is the sort of society I prefer to live in.
    - alistairSH 11mo ago
      Free at point of consumption. Anybody with half a brain understands that’s what’s meant when somebody says “free” education or “free” healthcare.
    - venturecruelty 11mo ago
      Just going to point out that this is semantic hair-splitting that usually comes from opponents of governments providing for the social welfare. Not saying you're doing that, but it's a thing that happens. And nobody thinks free education doesn't cost anything, just like people don't think the military doesn't cost anything. Somehow, though, there is endless trillions for "defense", and a little moth flies out of the wallet when it's for something that doesn't involve drones.
    - carlosjobim 11mo ago
      People without a degree: Work and pay high taxes for years while their peers are studying, and then continue to pay high taxes to pay for the high salaries of degree holders who used their degrees to get government "jobs". People with a degree: Get free education and free stipends, then get paid by the tax payers for the rest of their lives in their cushy government "jobs".
- satvikpendem 11mo ago
  Europe has a much lower expenditure per student compared to the US. https://www.aei.org/articles/the-crazy-amount-america-spends-on-higher-education-in-one-chart https://www.aei.org/articles/the-crazy-amount-america-spends...
  - crossbody 11mo ago
    It does. In large part due to Baumol's cost disease - higher overall incomes in productive sector like tech drive up costs for sector with low productivity growth - so professors and admin staff in US make 2x salaries compared to Europe (cost of living adjusted). Also, have you seen EU student amenities and dorm sizes?
    - btilly 11mo ago
      When you break down how budgets have changed, the two biggest drivers of tuition increases are the growth of administration, and fancy amenities like sports facilities. The cost of the person in front of the blackboard has not been increasing.
      - thaumasiotes 11mo ago
        The cost of the person in front of the blackboard has been steadily going down; those people have been complaining about this for decades.
        crossbody 11mo ago
        Ok, the prior link was comparing it to EU though, so perhaps costs for professors there went down even more, as professors make less there compared to US
    - mbesto 11mo ago
      I'm trying to follow you. I don't get how Baumol's has a higher degree of effectiveness in the US than it does in the EU? Are you saying there are more tech companies and therefore tech roles in the US than EU and thus those drive up non-tech wages even though they aren't as productive?
- anonymouskimmer 11mo ago
  From what I understand European education and degree programs are typically much more structured and narrow, and thus finish a lot faster. A student who finishes K-Ph.D. in the US will have a lot more breadth of exposure than such a student in most of Europe, if I recall what I read on the topic a while ago correctly.
- PaulDavisThe1st 11mo ago
  When used in a social context, "free" has a different meaning than in many other contexts. It does not mean, for example, "there is no cost for this thing". Rather, it means "the person receiving this thing is not responsible for paying the costs associated with it (at least not at the time)". Free health care doesn't mean "nobody gets paid to provide health care", it means "patients do not pay for health at the point of service". If you'd prefer that we use some other term to describe this, please suggest it. I do find it interesting that the Scottish NHS uses "No fees at point of service" as part of their branding (or did, back in 2019).
- disgruntledphd2 11mo ago
  The taxation is conditional on earning enough income though, which aligns incentives better.
- curcbit 11mo ago
  > once you graduate you are hit with 50% tax that gets back all you "free" tuition costs many, many times over. This is plain false.
  - crossbody 11mo ago
    In EU? What is false about it? I paid the 50% income tax after getting my "free education"
JumpCrisscross 11mo ago
> You can provide the piece of paper at a fraction of the cost This isn’t socially useful.
- venturecruelty 11mo ago
  And what we're doing now is? Telling 17-year-olds to take on six figures of debt and then replacing them with ChatGPT while making it impossible to discharge their debt?
  - DiscourseFan 11mo ago
    Just because Comp Sci and many STEM degrees in general are losing value does not mean that university overall is not worthwhile.
    - DaSHacka 11mo ago
      Does it really not, when many of the other degrees already lost their value a long time ago?
      - DiscourseFan 11mo ago
        Not sure what you mean by that, many other degrees still have plenty of value because they teach "soft skills" that are more broadly applicable and more difficult to automate. Hard skills always get automated away.
    - chongli 11mo ago
      The question is not “does it provide any value whatsoever?” The question is “does a degree provide surplus value to society, given its costs?”
      - DiscourseFan 11mo ago
        This is not something that can be measured ahead of time, what someone does with their education.
energy123 11mo ago
That doesn't have prestige value. Prestige comes from scarcity and the ability to exclude the lower caste. If people want to play those exclusivity games that's up to them. What's wrong is asking the taxpayer to fund it under the false mask that the entire product is education.
- creato 11mo ago
  The scarcity in Europe (at least the two countries I'm familiar with) comes from a standardized test. If you don't do well on the test, you don't go to college.
  - MengerSponge 11mo ago
    America used to do that, but Jewish students started taking (and doing well on) the test, and later Black and Asian students had the audacity to be brilliant too. This led to America's "holistic" college admissions process. For what it's worth, the USA isn't unique in adapting admissions to reject an unwanted minority. The most interesting mechanism has to be Moscow State University's Jewish Problems: https://arxiv.org/abs/1110.1556 https://arxiv.org/abs/1110.1556
    - h2zizzle 11mo ago
      The Chinese national entrance exam (gaokao?) is notoriously grueling, but doing well pretty much guarantees you a spot in a top university. Would have been useful to me, having grabbed a middle-of-the-road SAT score for Ivies but having failed to apply to one. There's definitely a multi-pronged strategy for ensuring exclusivity.
  - seec 11mo ago
    That's not exactly true. Funnily enough, you are extremely dependent on your sociological background. If you come from a poor family and do very well, you'll get a full ride for sure. But if you do well but come from a well-off family that refuse to pay for your education, you are fucked. It's only university attendance that is (mostly) free. you still need to finance housing and life costs. Since most good universities are in expensive cities and student loans are not much of a thing, it is an extremely selective process that targets both class standing (from a money standpoint) and parental implication. There was a study on one of the most selective school in France and actually diversity of background has gone down in the last 20 years. Europe is highly politicised and it was always about selecting for ideologically compatible behavior. Otherwise education wouldn't need so much government intervention/support, even if said education would be paid for by the taxpayer (everyone could get some amounts of credits, that they could spend on their institution of choice).

You can provide the piece of paper at a fraction of the cost too. Nearly all of Europe does, I believe.

by Aeolun 11mo ago

You can provide the piece of paper at a fraction of the cost too. Nearly all of Europe does, I believe.

Did Europe find a cheat code that gets free $$$ for education? Nothing is free - once you graduate you are hit with 50% tax that gets back all you "free" tuition costs many, many times over. Not saying education should not be subsidized via taxes (I think it's good overall), but it's not free at all - the price is just hidden and spread out over many years (similar to student loans but less visible).

ahartmetz 11mo ago
Was it much more subsidized in the US when it was much cheaper, though?
- crossbody 11mo ago
  I'd reword the question: "was college paid for via higher income taxes for graduates (and others) or via a more direct approach of student loan taking?". I believe the latter but I don't see the fundamental difference. It's the same student loan but hidden from sight, as it's packaged as higher tax %
  - xethos 11mo ago
    > don't see the fundamental difference You're kidding. The former means all higher net worth individuals to take on both the cost (via taxes) and the benefit (a well-trained workforce for businesses, well-paid, highly taxed contributors for the state, an educated populace of voters, graduates with stable work and in-demand skills). The latter is another example of America's "Everyone for themselves" theme, with students bearing the entire cost of their education, while the graduate, public, state, and businesses reap the benefit. If the benefits are spread so widely, why shouldn't the cost be?
    - crossbody 11mo ago
      The students bear costs but no benefit to themselves? No higher wages? My point is that it doesn't matter in principle if one takes a loan and pays it down over time vs. one is taxed at much higher % and that tax "pays down" a phantom student loan of "free" education. It does introduce a risk and hence the incentive for loan takers to choose their degree wisely though. Which should lead to better allocation of labor but at a cost of some personal risk.
      - xethos 11mo ago
        I actually included the graduate as a beneficiary ("a well-paid, highly taxed contributor" or "the graduate" in the counter), but more importantly: The entirety of society benefits from a well-educated populace. That's one reason even those without children pay for public education. Following that, if everyone benefits, why is the graduate taking on all the risk (via a non-dischargeable student loan) instead of spreading the risk across the entirety of society?
        crossbody 11mo ago
        Ok, I overlooked that. I think that's fair that risk should be more spread. Comes at a cost of people choosing degrees more frivolously though and wasting their time and everyone's money
        xethos 11mo ago
        I'd like to push back on "useless" degrees here, as well. The idea that degrees that leave graduates struggling to pay their bills (especially with student loans factored in) are worse than degrees that maximize income is bad for society. Not every job that is good for society pays well - if they did, educators would be better paid, and many executives would not be compensated as well as they are. Some degrees are less in-demand (at time of graduation) economically, but a well-educated populace that can apply critical thinking and remember lessons from history, can be its own reward. Notably, pushing for a population completely lacking these skills is an excellent way to topple a democracy over time.
surgical_fire 11mo ago
That's what taxes are for. Subsidizing public good. Affordable access to good education is a good outcome from the heavy taxation I pay.
- crossbody 11mo ago
  For sure. The main benefit is that it allows smart, hardworking but poor students to get a degree and utilize their brainpower productively for the benefit of all. That's great. Just don't say it's "free" - those who get the education pay back all they got via taxes (which in it's end effect are like paying down a student loan).
  - surgical_fire 11mo ago
    Absolutely. I never would say it is "free". But in many ways it is a matter of what one values. I had opportunities to move to the US and likely make 2x-3x what I make here and pay less taxes. I chose moving to Europe instead. It is the sort of society I prefer to live in.
  - alistairSH 11mo ago
    Free at point of consumption. Anybody with half a brain understands that’s what’s meant when somebody says “free” education or “free” healthcare.
  - venturecruelty 11mo ago
    Just going to point out that this is semantic hair-splitting that usually comes from opponents of governments providing for the social welfare. Not saying you're doing that, but it's a thing that happens. And nobody thinks free education doesn't cost anything, just like people don't think the military doesn't cost anything. Somehow, though, there is endless trillions for "defense", and a little moth flies out of the wallet when it's for something that doesn't involve drones.
  - carlosjobim 11mo ago
    People without a degree: Work and pay high taxes for years while their peers are studying, and then continue to pay high taxes to pay for the high salaries of degree holders who used their degrees to get government "jobs". People with a degree: Get free education and free stipends, then get paid by the tax payers for the rest of their lives in their cushy government "jobs".
satvikpendem 11mo ago
Europe has a much lower expenditure per student compared to the US. https://www.aei.org/articles/the-crazy-amount-america-spends-on-higher-education-in-one-chart https://www.aei.org/articles/the-crazy-amount-america-spends...
- crossbody 11mo ago
  It does. In large part due to Baumol's cost disease - higher overall incomes in productive sector like tech drive up costs for sector with low productivity growth - so professors and admin staff in US make 2x salaries compared to Europe (cost of living adjusted). Also, have you seen EU student amenities and dorm sizes?
  - btilly 11mo ago
    When you break down how budgets have changed, the two biggest drivers of tuition increases are the growth of administration, and fancy amenities like sports facilities. The cost of the person in front of the blackboard has not been increasing.
    - thaumasiotes 11mo ago
      The cost of the person in front of the blackboard has been steadily going down; those people have been complaining about this for decades.
      - crossbody 11mo ago
        Ok, the prior link was comparing it to EU though, so perhaps costs for professors there went down even more, as professors make less there compared to US
  - mbesto 11mo ago
    I'm trying to follow you. I don't get how Baumol's has a higher degree of effectiveness in the US than it does in the EU? Are you saying there are more tech companies and therefore tech roles in the US than EU and thus those drive up non-tech wages even though they aren't as productive?
anonymouskimmer 11mo ago
From what I understand European education and degree programs are typically much more structured and narrow, and thus finish a lot faster. A student who finishes K-Ph.D. in the US will have a lot more breadth of exposure than such a student in most of Europe, if I recall what I read on the topic a while ago correctly.
PaulDavisThe1st 11mo ago
When used in a social context, "free" has a different meaning than in many other contexts. It does not mean, for example, "there is no cost for this thing". Rather, it means "the person receiving this thing is not responsible for paying the costs associated with it (at least not at the time)". Free health care doesn't mean "nobody gets paid to provide health care", it means "patients do not pay for health at the point of service". If you'd prefer that we use some other term to describe this, please suggest it. I do find it interesting that the Scottish NHS uses "No fees at point of service" as part of their branding (or did, back in 2019).
disgruntledphd2 11mo ago
The taxation is conditional on earning enough income though, which aligns incentives better.
curcbit 11mo ago
> once you graduate you are hit with 50% tax that gets back all you "free" tuition costs many, many times over. This is plain false.
- crossbody 11mo ago
  In EU? What is false about it? I paid the 50% income tax after getting my "free education"

JumpCrisscross 11mo ago

> You can provide the piece of paper at a fraction of the cost This isn’t socially useful.

venturecruelty 11mo ago
And what we're doing now is? Telling 17-year-olds to take on six figures of debt and then replacing them with ChatGPT while making it impossible to discharge their debt?
- DiscourseFan 11mo ago
  Just because Comp Sci and many STEM degrees in general are losing value does not mean that university overall is not worthwhile.
  - DaSHacka 11mo ago
    Does it really not, when many of the other degrees already lost their value a long time ago?
    - DiscourseFan 11mo ago
      Not sure what you mean by that, many other degrees still have plenty of value because they teach "soft skills" that are more broadly applicable and more difficult to automate. Hard skills always get automated away.
  - chongli 11mo ago
    The question is not “does it provide any value whatsoever?” The question is “does a degree provide surplus value to society, given its costs?”
    - DiscourseFan 11mo ago
      This is not something that can be measured ahead of time, what someone does with their education.

energy123 11mo ago

That doesn't have prestige value. Prestige comes from scarcity and the ability to exclude the lower caste. If people want to play those exclusivity games that's up to them. What's wrong is asking the taxpayer to fund it under the false mask that the entire product is education.

creato 11mo ago
The scarcity in Europe (at least the two countries I'm familiar with) comes from a standardized test. If you don't do well on the test, you don't go to college.
- MengerSponge 11mo ago
  America used to do that, but Jewish students started taking (and doing well on) the test, and later Black and Asian students had the audacity to be brilliant too. This led to America's "holistic" college admissions process. For what it's worth, the USA isn't unique in adapting admissions to reject an unwanted minority. The most interesting mechanism has to be Moscow State University's Jewish Problems: https://arxiv.org/abs/1110.1556 https://arxiv.org/abs/1110.1556
  - h2zizzle 11mo ago
    The Chinese national entrance exam (gaokao?) is notoriously grueling, but doing well pretty much guarantees you a spot in a top university. Would have been useful to me, having grabbed a middle-of-the-road SAT score for Ivies but having failed to apply to one. There's definitely a multi-pronged strategy for ensuring exclusivity.
- seec 11mo ago
  That's not exactly true. Funnily enough, you are extremely dependent on your sociological background. If you come from a poor family and do very well, you'll get a full ride for sure. But if you do well but come from a well-off family that refuse to pay for your education, you are fucked. It's only university attendance that is (mostly) free. you still need to finance housing and life costs. Since most good universities are in expensive cities and student loans are not much of a thing, it is an extremely selective process that targets both class standing (from a money standpoint) and parental implication. There was a study on one of the most selective school in France and actually diversity of background has gone down in the last 20 years. Europe is highly politicised and it was always about selecting for ideologically compatible behavior. Otherwise education wouldn't need so much government intervention/support, even if said education would be paid for by the taxpayer (everyone could get some amounts of credits, that they could spend on their institution of choice).