4 ms·

I just bought a 2tb SSD drive that's the size of a tictac container...

Octoth0rpe 11mo ago
Sure. And you paid, what, maybe $120? so, $60/tb. When seagate commercializes these, it'll be around $10/tb. My last seagate spinning disks for my nas were 20tb for $150. SSDs have a valuable place in the world, but so do spinning disks. Physical size isn't a concern for my nas (I mean, assuming we're talking < 300cm^3 for the whole setup..), but $/tb is.
- PunchyHamster 11mo ago
  Also far lower chance to lose your data on HDD if left in a shelf for 3 years
- commandar 11mo ago
  Spinning rust still typically holds advantages for archival storage, as well. There was literally a headline on the front page here a few days ago re: data degradation of SSDs during cold storage, as one example.
  - Razengan 11mo ago
    > Data degradation of SSDs during cold storage Why is that? I'd have expected solid-state electronics to last longer at low temperatures. Or is it precisely that, some near/superconductivity effects causing naughty electrons to escape and wander about?
    - arcanemachiner 11mo ago
      By cold, I think they mean "powered off", not "low temperature".
    - khuey 11mo ago
      They mean powered off, not physically cold. Electrons escape the NAND flash over time and if the device is not active it's not refreshing them.
    - deleted 11mo ago
      [deleted]
    - kingstnap 11mo ago
      It's not super conductivity but instead quantum mechanics. High capacity hard drives nowadays use heat and strong magnetic fields to write patterns into the platter. It's pretty stable just sitting around doing nothing. High density multi level NAND involves quantum tunneling a few electrons using a strong electric field into an electrically insulated bit of semiconductor. Over some time the electrons tunnel their way out, but usually this only ends up actually happening if too much writing damaged the insulation.
      - Razengan 11mo ago
        Oh, so would actual cold (low temperatures) prevent/reduce that phenomenon?
        PunchyHamster 11mo ago
        Yes
  - saltcured 11mo ago
    I missed that earlier post to ask a question that always bugs me... do SSDs, when powered on, actually "patrol" their storage and rewrite cells that are fading even when quiescent from the host perspective? Or does the data decay there as well, just as a function of time since cells were written? In other words, is this whole focus on "powered off" just a proxy for "written once" versus "live data with presumed turnover"? Or do the cells really age more rapidly without power?
    - stuxnet79 11mo ago
      My understanding based on my readings of the previous post is there are no hardware level checks. SSDs need to be power cycled every so often and the integrity of the filesystem needs to be checked via something akin to zfs scrub. This should bs done on a monthly basis at minimum. If you are paranoid about your data and not relying on filesystem level checks from ZFS or Btrfs you should ptobably avoid SSDs for long term storage.
      - gruez 11mo ago
        >My understanding based on my readings of the previous post is there are no hardware level checks There are "hardware level checks", it's just that they might assume regular usage. If your SSD is turned on regularly (eg. a few hours a day at least), your files are probably fine, even if you never read/scrub your rarely read files. If it is infrequently used, you're right that you probably have to do an end-to-end scan to make sure everything gets checked and possibly re-written.
        kasabali 11mo ago
        "probably" does the heavy lifting here.
        gruez 11mo ago
        I mean, obviously? SSDs and HDDs randomly fail for all sorts of reasons beyond random bitflips, so properly working ECC isn't enough to guarantee your files are "fine". Even if you're using something like ZFS, it's possible for the one of the underlying drive to experience ECC errors, and have another drive fail before that can caught. If your parity factor is 1 or less (eg. RAIDz1), you'll also experience data loss.
  - threeducks 11mo ago
    The article in question: "Unpowered SSDs slowly lose data" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46038099 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46038099
  - ofrzeta 11mo ago
    I was researching that topic a little bit a while ago but with no usable outcome. The aim was to find out how to cope with SSDs as backups. Is it enough to plug them into a power connection once in a while so the firmware starts the refresh cycle? Do I need to do something else? How often does it need to be plugged in? Thankful for any pointers ...
- api 11mo ago
  “Disk is the new tape” has been true for a while and will probably stay true. SSD also has longer term data loss issues when unpowered. Magnetic disk is still better in that respect too.
  - immibis 11mo ago
    Tape is still half the cost per TB, but you have to be storing at least several hundred TBs to break even with the cost of a single tape drive. For two it's certainly well over a petabyte.
- echelon_musk 11mo ago
  Where are you buying 20TB HDDs for $150?
  - Octoth0rpe 11mo ago
    Apologies, I believe I paid $189 for the 20tb. Black friday sale at either microcenter or newegg. WD usb external, not some off brand. That was definitely not the normal price though, and the price looks a lot higher this year :/ There are still deals to be found that are closish. Microcenter has a 24tb external for $249 right now: https://www.microcenter.com/product/679395/seagate-24tb-expansion-desktop-usb-32-(gen-1-type-a)-external-hard-drive https://www.microcenter.com/product/679395/seagate-24tb-expa... amazon has a 22tb for $229 right now: https://www.amazon.com/Seagate-Expansion-22TB-External-Drive/dp/B0DW8ZW47C/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=WK96DD56OMGY&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.CvgJf1slkJAfk5Zwu2OSMWBE1lKpmXZDs7vfJNZrCI1i786c187FFqNyhvKLKiUQ2cdmOqg4ws04HbZ-yoRJqSWd3R3D5JososLDO8bjRQvsIQ_uAkvzXKEF5EErsrkaLoAgRC2pIPAoQaPnbmufLsQILE9zgwxu_XbykO3hP8OWybEFXPIzqCjkKXvPYO_-Jv8rAjK0u5LDRkkfxz81-CL3wCYjAqZTfwoGd7OiXbc.LGJe5DWDTVmy-oNYPJxtB5-mZ3VQQ4jAK79OljlZDGo&dib_tag=se&keywords=20tb%2Bexternal%2Bhard%2Bdrive&qid=1764286540&sprefix=20tb%2B%2Caps%2C164&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&th=1 https://www.amazon.com/Seagate-Expansion-22TB-External-Drive... Those and my $189 price - which is definitely higher than I originally claimed, apologies - are all around $10/tb.
- coppsilgold 11mo ago
  It's already $10-$11: <https://diskprices.com https://diskprices.com> See the 20TB+ Seagate external drives. People who just want the 3.5" SATA drives remove them from the plastic enclosure (they call it "shucking").
wmf 11mo ago
Flash is far denser than hard disks but as long as it's more expensive it's not that relevant.
ppg_hero 11mo ago
That's a really expensive way to get 2TB. Right now checking https://pricepergig.com https://pricepergig.com you can get External Storage 26TB for $10.38/TB - Seagate Drive Internal Storage 24TB for $10.81/TB - Seagate Drive SSD - $48.75 / TB Crucial !

Sure. And you paid, what, maybe $120? so, $60/tb. When seagate commercializes these, it'll be around $10/tb. My last seagate spinning disks for my nas were 20tb for $150. SSDs have a valuable place in the world, but so do spinning disks. Physical size isn't a concern for my nas (I mean, assuming we're talking < 300cm^3 for the whole setup..), but $/tb is.

PunchyHamster 11mo ago
Also far lower chance to lose your data on HDD if left in a shelf for 3 years
commandar 11mo ago
Spinning rust still typically holds advantages for archival storage, as well. There was literally a headline on the front page here a few days ago re: data degradation of SSDs during cold storage, as one example.
- Razengan 11mo ago
  > Data degradation of SSDs during cold storage Why is that? I'd have expected solid-state electronics to last longer at low temperatures. Or is it precisely that, some near/superconductivity effects causing naughty electrons to escape and wander about?
  - arcanemachiner 11mo ago
    By cold, I think they mean "powered off", not "low temperature".
  - khuey 11mo ago
    They mean powered off, not physically cold. Electrons escape the NAND flash over time and if the device is not active it's not refreshing them.
  - deleted 11mo ago
    [deleted]
  - kingstnap 11mo ago
    It's not super conductivity but instead quantum mechanics. High capacity hard drives nowadays use heat and strong magnetic fields to write patterns into the platter. It's pretty stable just sitting around doing nothing. High density multi level NAND involves quantum tunneling a few electrons using a strong electric field into an electrically insulated bit of semiconductor. Over some time the electrons tunnel their way out, but usually this only ends up actually happening if too much writing damaged the insulation.
    - Razengan 11mo ago
      Oh, so would actual cold (low temperatures) prevent/reduce that phenomenon?
      - PunchyHamster 11mo ago
        Yes
- saltcured 11mo ago
  I missed that earlier post to ask a question that always bugs me... do SSDs, when powered on, actually "patrol" their storage and rewrite cells that are fading even when quiescent from the host perspective? Or does the data decay there as well, just as a function of time since cells were written? In other words, is this whole focus on "powered off" just a proxy for "written once" versus "live data with presumed turnover"? Or do the cells really age more rapidly without power?
  - stuxnet79 11mo ago
    My understanding based on my readings of the previous post is there are no hardware level checks. SSDs need to be power cycled every so often and the integrity of the filesystem needs to be checked via something akin to zfs scrub. This should bs done on a monthly basis at minimum. If you are paranoid about your data and not relying on filesystem level checks from ZFS or Btrfs you should ptobably avoid SSDs for long term storage.
    - gruez 11mo ago
      >My understanding based on my readings of the previous post is there are no hardware level checks There are "hardware level checks", it's just that they might assume regular usage. If your SSD is turned on regularly (eg. a few hours a day at least), your files are probably fine, even if you never read/scrub your rarely read files. If it is infrequently used, you're right that you probably have to do an end-to-end scan to make sure everything gets checked and possibly re-written.
      - kasabali 11mo ago
        "probably" does the heavy lifting here.
        gruez 11mo ago
        I mean, obviously? SSDs and HDDs randomly fail for all sorts of reasons beyond random bitflips, so properly working ECC isn't enough to guarantee your files are "fine". Even if you're using something like ZFS, it's possible for the one of the underlying drive to experience ECC errors, and have another drive fail before that can caught. If your parity factor is 1 or less (eg. RAIDz1), you'll also experience data loss.
- threeducks 11mo ago
  The article in question: "Unpowered SSDs slowly lose data" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46038099 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46038099
- ofrzeta 11mo ago
  I was researching that topic a little bit a while ago but with no usable outcome. The aim was to find out how to cope with SSDs as backups. Is it enough to plug them into a power connection once in a while so the firmware starts the refresh cycle? Do I need to do something else? How often does it need to be plugged in? Thankful for any pointers ...
api 11mo ago
“Disk is the new tape” has been true for a while and will probably stay true. SSD also has longer term data loss issues when unpowered. Magnetic disk is still better in that respect too.
- immibis 11mo ago
  Tape is still half the cost per TB, but you have to be storing at least several hundred TBs to break even with the cost of a single tape drive. For two it's certainly well over a petabyte.
echelon_musk 11mo ago
Where are you buying 20TB HDDs for $150?
- Octoth0rpe 11mo ago
  Apologies, I believe I paid $189 for the 20tb. Black friday sale at either microcenter or newegg. WD usb external, not some off brand. That was definitely not the normal price though, and the price looks a lot higher this year :/ There are still deals to be found that are closish. Microcenter has a 24tb external for $249 right now: https://www.microcenter.com/product/679395/seagate-24tb-expansion-desktop-usb-32-(gen-1-type-a)-external-hard-drive https://www.microcenter.com/product/679395/seagate-24tb-expa... amazon has a 22tb for $229 right now: https://www.amazon.com/Seagate-Expansion-22TB-External-Drive/dp/B0DW8ZW47C/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=WK96DD56OMGY&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.CvgJf1slkJAfk5Zwu2OSMWBE1lKpmXZDs7vfJNZrCI1i786c187FFqNyhvKLKiUQ2cdmOqg4ws04HbZ-yoRJqSWd3R3D5JososLDO8bjRQvsIQ_uAkvzXKEF5EErsrkaLoAgRC2pIPAoQaPnbmufLsQILE9zgwxu_XbykO3hP8OWybEFXPIzqCjkKXvPYO_-Jv8rAjK0u5LDRkkfxz81-CL3wCYjAqZTfwoGd7OiXbc.LGJe5DWDTVmy-oNYPJxtB5-mZ3VQQ4jAK79OljlZDGo&dib_tag=se&keywords=20tb%2Bexternal%2Bhard%2Bdrive&qid=1764286540&sprefix=20tb%2B%2Caps%2C164&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&th=1 https://www.amazon.com/Seagate-Expansion-22TB-External-Drive... Those and my $189 price - which is definitely higher than I originally claimed, apologies - are all around $10/tb.
coppsilgold 11mo ago
It's already $10-$11: <https://diskprices.com https://diskprices.com> See the 20TB+ Seagate external drives. People who just want the 3.5" SATA drives remove them from the plastic enclosure (they call it "shucking").

wmf 11mo ago

Flash is far denser than hard disks but as long as it's more expensive it's not that relevant.

ppg_hero 11mo ago

That's a really expensive way to get 2TB. Right now checking https://pricepergig.com https://pricepergig.com you can get External Storage 26TB for $10.38/TB - Seagate Drive Internal Storage 24TB for $10.81/TB - Seagate Drive SSD - $48.75 / TB Crucial !