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As a European I have to say I am extremely jealous of a government with the willingness of doing something as radical as this. Europe desperately needs to secu

As a European I have to say I am extremely jealous of a government with the willingness of doing something as radical as this. Europe desperately needs to secure its own semi conductor supply chain. Neither the EU nor any member states seems willing to do anything about this though. Europe still is in a position, where it feasibly could control 100% of the semiconductor value chain on the continent. But besides meaning posturing there is nothing being done.

mono442 11mo ago
At least European countries excel at introducing new regulations and taxes.
- constantcrying 11mo ago
  Yeah. Who wants to be a military superpower or a manufacturing superpower, when they could be a regulatory superpower.
  - inglor_cz 11mo ago
    One of our problems (EU citizen here too) is the delusion that because everyone in the world wants access to European markets, everyone will bend their knees to our regulations and we can effectively dictate the world's standards. Given that our market share on the global economy is dropping steadily, this won't hold forever. By 2040 or so it might be more advantageous for Asian producers to just avoid our bureaucratized space altogether. Already this year we had a showdown with Qatar over some ESG reporting and we lost handily, because we needed their gas more than they needed our money.
    - riffraff 11mo ago
      > By 2040 or so it might be more advantageous for Asian producers to just avoid our bureaucratized space altogether. in favour of what? Every other large market (China, India, USA) has extreme protectionism in place.
      - inglor_cz 11mo ago
        At least in case of India, it is in their interest to lower their trade barriers against Thailand, Viet Nam, Philippines, Indonesia etc. This region with 500 million people in it will oscillate between Chinese and Indian influence. The Chinese are more powerful and richer, so the only way in which India can compete for influence is being more friendly.
        tonyhart7 11mo ago
        India is too busy fighting on their own sphere of influence (south asian) china keep them in check via pakistan
        inglor_cz 11mo ago
        Now, but we're talking 2040, and the situation may look a lot different. India has been doing some incredible things lately. They just electrified their entire rail network in some five years. That is actually impressive - you need a lot of qualified people and coordination for that. If they keep up, they will become a strategic adversary of China in Indochina (see the name?) quite soon.
        eldaisfish 11mo ago
        India's rail network is not fully electrified, this is false. Even the most popular broad gauge network is not fully electrified. Diesel trains are still very common. Remember also that the Indian government is very skilled at manipulating data without actually delivering results. Just look at the lies they spewed during the pandemic about deaths. India's promised ascendance to power and influence remain perpetually a few decades away. Meanwhile, the poor continue to lose purchasing power, the rich exploit the entire country, and India's total economic exports are comparable to those of the Netherlands.
      - andsoitis 11mo ago
        > > By 2040 or so it might be more advantageous for Asian producers to just avoid our bureaucratized space altogether. > in favour of what? Every other large market (China, India, USA) has extreme protectionism in place. The EU has higher tariffs than the US overall, especially for agriculture and cars. Policy is structured and uniform. The IS has lower tariffs than the EU overall, but often used as political/economic weapon on specific countries and sectors. The current administration's tactics notwithstanding.
    - constantcrying 11mo ago
      Exactly. For the past decades much of the world was entirely dependent on European products. This gave the EU and European countries enormous leverage in setting standards and enforcing their own regulations across the world. This is very clearly changing, in many areas European companies are depending on Chinese technology (e.g. EV batteries). I am sure that some part of the EU establishment is aware of this, but the measure taken are practically laughable compared to the magnitude of the problem. At some future point in time dealing with the EU will just not be worth it, as competitive companies outside the EU, not weighed down by EU regulations, will fill the gaps and entering the EU market will be seen as too toxic.
  - sofixa 11mo ago
    You're saying that like the two are at odds. France is a military superpower with almost entirely France, worst case scenario western EU, based supply chain. Italy, Spain, to a lesser extent Germany are too. Manufacturing is also pretty strong across (most) of the EU. Automotive is struggling in Germany, but booming in France (Renault are killing it). Leading in Aeronautics too. It's just mostly high value manufacturing. In the EU, 25% of the economy is in manufacturing. Compare with 10% in the US. And those regulations are, more often than not, for everyone's benefit - at least EU, but often the Brussels effect applies so a lot of the rest of the world benefits too.
    - constantcrying 11mo ago
      What you are saying is just not true. Frances car industry is dying. Renault is a small company, not even in the top 10 and Stellantis is doing extremely poorly, also affecting Italy's car industry. Within a decade or so COMAC will have a competitive passenger plane, seriously threatening Airbus market share. Germany's entire industry is currently dying since it is impossible to have a cost competitive manufacturing industry while having some of the highest energy prices in the world. Your entire comment looks at the current status quo, not at the continuous downward trend or the abyss which awaits if Stellantis or VW Group get pushed out of the market by Chinese competition. Do you think Germany or France will continue to have a car industry, when China makes cars or the same quality for 70% of the price? Because that is currently the reality.
      - mono442 11mo ago
        High energy prices are a self-imposed problem. The price of electricity is heavily dependent on the price of the most expensive energy source. Electricity from fossil fuels is expensive in European Union due to emissions trading system. A coal-fired power plant pays around 2x more for the emissions than for the coal itself. I don't know how the maths work for a natural gas plant but gas is more expensive in Europe anyway compared to the US.
      - sofixa 11mo ago
        > Renault is a small company, not even in the top 10 How exactly is that even remotely relevant? They only sell in select markets, and are killing it in them (best selling EV in the EU, Renault 5). What, if it's not a global behemoth dominating the world, it doesn't count as manufacturing? What exactly is your argument here? > Within a decade or so COMAC will have a competitive passenger plane, seriously threatening Airbus market share. Nope. Their own goal is to have, within a decade or so, a fully Chinese plane (their current C919 heavily relies on engines and other critical components from European and American suppliers). Specifically for the engines, they're looking at a comparable to the Leap 1C they were sold by CFM (American General Electric+French Safran joint venture). Those engines are around a generation behind the current best ones (Leap 1A, Pratt&Whitney GTF). In a decade, CFM and Rolls-Royce will have a new generation out, both having new models being tested right now. So, in around a decade, the Chinese engines will be two generations behind. Efficiency is critical in aviation. And that's just the engines, in a decade Airbus will have a new A320 series replacement out, and Boeing will have one on the way too. And this is just for short to medium haul planes. And both the C919 and the C909 show that it's taking years for production to ramp up to any relevant numbers. Airbus recently opened a second final assembly line in Tianjin for the local market, they wouldn't have done that without being sure they have a market there for at least a decade or more. > Your entire comment looks at the current status quo, not at the continuous downward trend or the abyss which awaits if Stellantis or VW Group get pushed out of the market by Chinese competition. This is assuming that the Chinese competition would be allowed to compete on the same terms, which we already know won't happen - both the EU and the US have put in tariffs. And we can see that a low cost Dacia EV is similarly priced to a low cost BYD EV.
- tw04 11mo ago
  Imagine a government that considers its people more than tools for the wealthy to use and discard as they see fit! So many regulations meant to protect the plebes! Universal healthcare? Vacation time you can actually use? Data privacy laws? What a bunch of losers! Next you’ll tell me they actually give parents time off to raise their kids instead of dumping them into daycare after a month of drudgery and try to call it bonding !
  - mono442 11mo ago
    I wouldn't call European governments considering its people. Basically all of European countries suffer from housing crisis and nothing is being done to actually address it.
  - modo_mario 11mo ago
    >Imagine a government that considers its people more than tools for the wealthy to use and discard as they see fit! Most European governments are for a long time now pushing migration hard overtly or subversively(since it's unpopular) arguing as if they're importing tools for the economy.
- gsf_emergency_6 11mo ago
  Some of the regulations make sense, like PFAS (correlated with chip manufacturing because HF is needed to etch Silicon and so fluoro-organics make great complements) And they seem to be sincere about it. https://www.americanchemistry.com/chemistry-in-america/chemistries/fluorotechnology-per-and-polyfluoroalkyl-substances-pfas/pfas-critical-to-semiconductors-and-advanced-technologies https://www.americanchemistry.com/chemistry-in-america/chemi... As for the Japanese professional classes, environmental issues are always an afterthought. Don't let the "harmonious" design philosophy of the fab fool you..that's tatemae. (Remember Jobs and pancreatic cancer? There's the price to pay for the shiny toys) I wont be eating from Hokkaido if this pans out (their milk is overrated imho, but the seafood is top) Maybe I'll get to eat more Austrian millet in the near future..
AdamN 11mo ago
They would have to include the UK and it would actually be a good European project (not just EU) to maybe bring them back into the fold.
inglor_cz 11mo ago
This is a good initiative from Japan's government. On the other side, their bet on hydrogen is probably a very expensive blind alley.
Tade0 11mo ago
> Europe still is in a position, where it feasibly could control 100% of the semiconductor value chain on the continent. That's not possible. There are just too many different parts going into semiconductor production and they're scattered around the world. Case in point: the source of the best semiconductor-grade quartz is located in Spruce Pine, North Carolina and while there exist alternatives, for cost-competetiveness you want that. Hilariously enough it belongs to Sibelco, which is a Belgian company, but it's still US territory, so subject to local politics.
- constantcrying 11mo ago
  While it may be true that cost advantages are in that specific quartz, it is not some irreplaceable product. It absolutely would be possible to use other quartz, which would require more processing and increase costs. Do you have any actual examples of things which could not be in sourced into Europe? I am very aware that for many reasons, among them costs, semiconductor fabrication is spread globally. But is there an actual reason why it would be impossible to have every single one of these pieces in some capacity in Europe? Europe is continually moving further apart politically from both the US and China. Relying on the US for supplies and betting on Chinese, Taiwanese peace seems increasingly foolish. How can Europe secure itself in such an environment, without its own semiconductor supply chain?
  - jandrewrogers 11mo ago
    A better example is the EUV lithography light sources used by ASML. They are manufactured in the US by a US company ASML acquired with technology licensed from US government labs. That critical part of the business is American in all but name. It is possible that the EU could develop their own state-of-the-art lithography light sources but for now ASML is dependent on the US for it.
  - Findecanor 11mo ago
    Silicon for solar cell production is currently being mined and refined in Sweden. What would it take to adapt that production line for semiconductor-grade silicon, I wonder.
noselasd 11mo ago
They are doing _something_ according to https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/policies/european-chips-act https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/policies/european-c... . It'd be good for someone with more knowledge to summarise what this act means though.
- constantcrying 11mo ago
  This is so grim. What a stark difference to Japan. On one side there is a government setting up a new company, with the aim of competing at the highest end of the most complex technological process in existence. Meanwhile the EU is setting up bureaucrat managed funds to keep the remaining companies, currently suffering from the decline of the German auto industry, alive. Oh and they also paid TSMC to set up a factory, how pathetic.
  - p2detar 11mo ago
    > Meanwhile the EU What do you think the EU is? It's not a country, not a federative union. These things need a lot of discussions and synchronization among member countries, it does not work otherwise, so it takes time. I also hold the opinion that time is a resource the EU does not have, so it badly needs to reform itself - its framework no longer works for this "new age".
    - eldaisfish 11mo ago
      the #1 problem with the EU's administrative structure is that its power comes from below, i.e. from the member states. Any of them could pull a Brexit and the entire union could be in jeopardy. The #2 problem is language. Despite what many on HN think, European borders very much exist. They exist via language and bureaucracy. These two combine to create many problems the EU and Europe in general has. The lack of vision, the excruciatingly slow bureaucracy, both are symptoms of the same underlying problems.
  - oblio 11mo ago
    The EU can't really do anything. The EU is a loose confederation of countries that delegate responsibilities to this united body. Japan is a single country with a single government that can unilaterally decide what it wants to do.
laughing_man 11mo ago
Isn't Europe the source of almost all the tooling that goes into brand new fabs?
- FranzFerdiNaN 11mo ago
  Nah, according to Hacker News Europe does nothing except exist and make up rules by 'bureaucrats'.
  - ahartmetz 11mo ago
    Laptop sticker "This machine feeds bureaucrats". /s
  - tdeck 11mo ago
    It's the lack of 996 grindset holding Europe back.
    - RhysabOweyn 11mo ago
      If only European bureaucrats mortgaged their entire economy on 500 AI scam companies that never produce any profit and sold off their entire manufacturing base to their main adversary. This is how real superpowers roll.
- tonyhart7 11mo ago
  I think chinnese already made their own "ASML"
  - anonzzzies 11mo ago
    With very bad results. I was walking a fab in China a few years ago: all machines are German, Japanese and Dutch. I asked why they don't have Chinese ones: the cto said they exist for the German and Japanese machines but they break much faster so it is not worth it and the asml machines are not there at all in any type of competitive form. It will happen, just not yet I guess.
numbers_guy 11mo ago
European countries are willing to make big bets. The issue is with incompetent leadership. For example they made very big bets on quantum computing and particle accelerators for HEP, both of which have close to zero ROI. Meanwhile, up till very recently AI was sneered at as not "scientific" enough. This is a problem with leadership. The issue is mostly that we put people in leadership positions, who are experts in past technologies but those instincts do not translate well to present technologies.
- tonyhart7 11mo ago
  non sense Google deepmind headquarter is located in Europe, US tech dominance just that good to attract talent all of europe You can see list of AI researcher that comes from europe+asia
  - anonzzzies 11mo ago
    That is incompeten5 leadership no? If your talent wants to move...
  - octaane 11mo ago
    Notably though, Deepmind is based in London, UK - not the EU.
    - fastasucan 11mo ago
      London is inside England, which is an european country.
    - tonyhart7 11mo ago
      nowhere I mention EU and you EU crackhead cant comprehend Europe anymore huh????
abc123abc123 11mo ago
Hah... europe will become king of the world! We'll tax and regulate ourselves to enormous wealth! No... jokes aside, europe is a failed union, and will slowly collapse or decompose in a decade or two. Then we can again focus on trade, lowering taxs and creating value. The only thing that is happening now is that the political class has become enormously rich through bribes and by having managed to phase out democracy and enriching themselves.
- watwut 11mo ago
  You mean, like America is doing right now while simultaneously destroying its international position and quality of life?
  - tonyhart7 11mo ago
    "simultaneously destroying its international position" US has been doing the same thing for last 200 years and you act like its been different ??? oh, is that because you dnt get benefit as opposed to instability that US cause like middle east, south america, africa and asia ????
    - watwut 11mo ago
      US was not destroying its own international position for 200 years. Their international position went all the way up in that period. It was also not destroying its own quality of life for 200 years.
      - tonyhart7 11mo ago
        there is nothing to be destroyed if there is no "good reputation" in the first place You are seeing from European perspective but I can assure you that there is people that seeing western country is a "bad guys" from these region because Western power always trying exert their influence via trade deal, regime change, fund armed group etc
        11mo ago
traceroute66 11mo ago
> Europe desperately needs to secure its own semi conductor supply chain. To be fair, Europe does have ASML which has something like 2/3 market share in DUV and almost monoplistic in EUV. The moat is enormous, so they are unlikely to face any serious competition for at least a decade if not more.
- ricardobeat 11mo ago
  China is already catching up. They have a desktop-sized 14nm EUV machine, and Xiami is setting up a 3nm manufacturing line, both entirely with local tech. Thanks USA for the export ban.
  - andy_ppp 11mo ago
    Xiami have designed a 3nm chip, however I am not convinced SMIC have a process for them to build the chip at any scale yet. Let's see - eventually China will obviously have a process comparable to TSMC but I think currently they are at least 18 months behind. They were 5 years behind before the sanctions so they are catching up fast.
  - speed_spread 11mo ago
    They would be catching up anyway. At least now there will be a second source for the tech. ASML does fantastic work but they may not have all the answers.
  - ecshafer 11mo ago
    China has been dumping massive amounts of resources in this for at least 20 years, this (Making chips domestically with local tech) has been a long term goal for a very long time. The chip ban is relatively recent. IF it had an effect it was merely expediting a process that was going to happen regardless. China was NEVER going to be content importing Western chips or western machines to make chips indefinitely.
    - kevin_thibedeau 11mo ago
      The EUV ban is not recent.
Qiu_Zhanxuan 11mo ago
We spent the last 30 years showing deference to good old Uncle Sam, sometimes back-stabbing other member states in the process. How would we ever have the nerves to do something of this scale with all the cooperation, supply chain logistics and engineering complexity that this would involve ?
- mikkupikku 11mo ago
  Let's be real, it's not America's fault that the EU is dysfunctional in these regards. I'm sure that America does little to actually help, but the biggest problem the EU faces comes from their own internal corruption. Nothing gets done in Europe unless it can be restructured by their corrupt bureaucrats to pay all their friends and relatives, and the process of negotiating how to spread the graft around is highly political and takes many years. This is why the ESA is so dysfunctional despite Arianespace starting from a position of almost commercial launch market dominance at the end of the millennium. They're locked into Ariane 5 development even though it was obsolete on arrival and it will probably take them 20 years to negotiate the corrupt deals that will allow them to design and build something new. This cultural and political dysfunction in European society is entirely the fault of Europeans. India will send people to space before Europe.
  - Qiu_Zhanxuan 11mo ago
    Haven't said otherwise, it's our elites "impotent" mentality that is to blame (excuse my french)
zer0tonin 11mo ago
The Netherlands has its own semi supply chain, from photolithographs to chip design to printing the actual chips.
- yourusername 11mo ago
  I don't think that's right. They make one of the many machines you need for semiconductor manufacturing. The NXP fab in Nijmegen makes simple components on a outdated 140nm+ process with 200mm wafers. Unless there is another fab that is making actual modern chips?
  - sehansen 11mo ago
    ST Microelectronics makes 18 nm chips and 6 out of their 7 fabs are in Europe: https://www.st.com/content/st_com/en/about/manufacturing-at-st/our-facilities.html https://www.st.com/content/st_com/en/about/manufacturing-at-...
  - justin66 11mo ago
    > They make one of the many machines you need for semiconductor manufacturing. That's an especially obtuse way of minimizing the significance of their manufacture of the most complex machine ever made.
slightwinder 11mo ago
Intel was supposed to build something in Germany some years ago, didn't really work out because of reasons which seems to have been outside of Germany's control. So it's not that they are unwilling, but it just didn't succeed yet.

mono442 11mo ago

At least European countries excel at introducing new regulations and taxes.

constantcrying 11mo ago
Yeah. Who wants to be a military superpower or a manufacturing superpower, when they could be a regulatory superpower.
- inglor_cz 11mo ago
  One of our problems (EU citizen here too) is the delusion that because everyone in the world wants access to European markets, everyone will bend their knees to our regulations and we can effectively dictate the world's standards. Given that our market share on the global economy is dropping steadily, this won't hold forever. By 2040 or so it might be more advantageous for Asian producers to just avoid our bureaucratized space altogether. Already this year we had a showdown with Qatar over some ESG reporting and we lost handily, because we needed their gas more than they needed our money.
  - riffraff 11mo ago
    > By 2040 or so it might be more advantageous for Asian producers to just avoid our bureaucratized space altogether. in favour of what? Every other large market (China, India, USA) has extreme protectionism in place.
    - inglor_cz 11mo ago
      At least in case of India, it is in their interest to lower their trade barriers against Thailand, Viet Nam, Philippines, Indonesia etc. This region with 500 million people in it will oscillate between Chinese and Indian influence. The Chinese are more powerful and richer, so the only way in which India can compete for influence is being more friendly.
      - tonyhart7 11mo ago
        India is too busy fighting on their own sphere of influence (south asian) china keep them in check via pakistan
        inglor_cz 11mo ago
        Now, but we're talking 2040, and the situation may look a lot different. India has been doing some incredible things lately. They just electrified their entire rail network in some five years. That is actually impressive - you need a lot of qualified people and coordination for that. If they keep up, they will become a strategic adversary of China in Indochina (see the name?) quite soon.
        eldaisfish 11mo ago
        India's rail network is not fully electrified, this is false. Even the most popular broad gauge network is not fully electrified. Diesel trains are still very common. Remember also that the Indian government is very skilled at manipulating data without actually delivering results. Just look at the lies they spewed during the pandemic about deaths. India's promised ascendance to power and influence remain perpetually a few decades away. Meanwhile, the poor continue to lose purchasing power, the rich exploit the entire country, and India's total economic exports are comparable to those of the Netherlands.
    - andsoitis 11mo ago
      > > By 2040 or so it might be more advantageous for Asian producers to just avoid our bureaucratized space altogether. > in favour of what? Every other large market (China, India, USA) has extreme protectionism in place. The EU has higher tariffs than the US overall, especially for agriculture and cars. Policy is structured and uniform. The IS has lower tariffs than the EU overall, but often used as political/economic weapon on specific countries and sectors. The current administration's tactics notwithstanding.
  - constantcrying 11mo ago
    Exactly. For the past decades much of the world was entirely dependent on European products. This gave the EU and European countries enormous leverage in setting standards and enforcing their own regulations across the world. This is very clearly changing, in many areas European companies are depending on Chinese technology (e.g. EV batteries). I am sure that some part of the EU establishment is aware of this, but the measure taken are practically laughable compared to the magnitude of the problem. At some future point in time dealing with the EU will just not be worth it, as competitive companies outside the EU, not weighed down by EU regulations, will fill the gaps and entering the EU market will be seen as too toxic.
- sofixa 11mo ago
  You're saying that like the two are at odds. France is a military superpower with almost entirely France, worst case scenario western EU, based supply chain. Italy, Spain, to a lesser extent Germany are too. Manufacturing is also pretty strong across (most) of the EU. Automotive is struggling in Germany, but booming in France (Renault are killing it). Leading in Aeronautics too. It's just mostly high value manufacturing. In the EU, 25% of the economy is in manufacturing. Compare with 10% in the US. And those regulations are, more often than not, for everyone's benefit - at least EU, but often the Brussels effect applies so a lot of the rest of the world benefits too.
  - constantcrying 11mo ago
    What you are saying is just not true. Frances car industry is dying. Renault is a small company, not even in the top 10 and Stellantis is doing extremely poorly, also affecting Italy's car industry. Within a decade or so COMAC will have a competitive passenger plane, seriously threatening Airbus market share. Germany's entire industry is currently dying since it is impossible to have a cost competitive manufacturing industry while having some of the highest energy prices in the world. Your entire comment looks at the current status quo, not at the continuous downward trend or the abyss which awaits if Stellantis or VW Group get pushed out of the market by Chinese competition. Do you think Germany or France will continue to have a car industry, when China makes cars or the same quality for 70% of the price? Because that is currently the reality.
    - mono442 11mo ago
      High energy prices are a self-imposed problem. The price of electricity is heavily dependent on the price of the most expensive energy source. Electricity from fossil fuels is expensive in European Union due to emissions trading system. A coal-fired power plant pays around 2x more for the emissions than for the coal itself. I don't know how the maths work for a natural gas plant but gas is more expensive in Europe anyway compared to the US.
    - sofixa 11mo ago
      > Renault is a small company, not even in the top 10 How exactly is that even remotely relevant? They only sell in select markets, and are killing it in them (best selling EV in the EU, Renault 5). What, if it's not a global behemoth dominating the world, it doesn't count as manufacturing? What exactly is your argument here? > Within a decade or so COMAC will have a competitive passenger plane, seriously threatening Airbus market share. Nope. Their own goal is to have, within a decade or so, a fully Chinese plane (their current C919 heavily relies on engines and other critical components from European and American suppliers). Specifically for the engines, they're looking at a comparable to the Leap 1C they were sold by CFM (American General Electric+French Safran joint venture). Those engines are around a generation behind the current best ones (Leap 1A, Pratt&Whitney GTF). In a decade, CFM and Rolls-Royce will have a new generation out, both having new models being tested right now. So, in around a decade, the Chinese engines will be two generations behind. Efficiency is critical in aviation. And that's just the engines, in a decade Airbus will have a new A320 series replacement out, and Boeing will have one on the way too. And this is just for short to medium haul planes. And both the C919 and the C909 show that it's taking years for production to ramp up to any relevant numbers. Airbus recently opened a second final assembly line in Tianjin for the local market, they wouldn't have done that without being sure they have a market there for at least a decade or more. > Your entire comment looks at the current status quo, not at the continuous downward trend or the abyss which awaits if Stellantis or VW Group get pushed out of the market by Chinese competition. This is assuming that the Chinese competition would be allowed to compete on the same terms, which we already know won't happen - both the EU and the US have put in tariffs. And we can see that a low cost Dacia EV is similarly priced to a low cost BYD EV.
tw04 11mo ago
Imagine a government that considers its people more than tools for the wealthy to use and discard as they see fit! So many regulations meant to protect the plebes! Universal healthcare? Vacation time you can actually use? Data privacy laws? What a bunch of losers! Next you’ll tell me they actually give parents time off to raise their kids instead of dumping them into daycare after a month of drudgery and try to call it bonding !
- mono442 11mo ago
  I wouldn't call European governments considering its people. Basically all of European countries suffer from housing crisis and nothing is being done to actually address it.
- modo_mario 11mo ago
  >Imagine a government that considers its people more than tools for the wealthy to use and discard as they see fit! Most European governments are for a long time now pushing migration hard overtly or subversively(since it's unpopular) arguing as if they're importing tools for the economy.
gsf_emergency_6 11mo ago
Some of the regulations make sense, like PFAS (correlated with chip manufacturing because HF is needed to etch Silicon and so fluoro-organics make great complements) And they seem to be sincere about it. https://www.americanchemistry.com/chemistry-in-america/chemistries/fluorotechnology-per-and-polyfluoroalkyl-substances-pfas/pfas-critical-to-semiconductors-and-advanced-technologies https://www.americanchemistry.com/chemistry-in-america/chemi... As for the Japanese professional classes, environmental issues are always an afterthought. Don't let the "harmonious" design philosophy of the fab fool you..that's tatemae. (Remember Jobs and pancreatic cancer? There's the price to pay for the shiny toys) I wont be eating from Hokkaido if this pans out (their milk is overrated imho, but the seafood is top) Maybe I'll get to eat more Austrian millet in the near future..

AdamN 11mo ago

They would have to include the UK and it would actually be a good European project (not just EU) to maybe bring them back into the fold.

inglor_cz 11mo ago

This is a good initiative from Japan's government. On the other side, their bet on hydrogen is probably a very expensive blind alley.

Tade0 11mo ago

> Europe still is in a position, where it feasibly could control 100% of the semiconductor value chain on the continent. That's not possible. There are just too many different parts going into semiconductor production and they're scattered around the world. Case in point: the source of the best semiconductor-grade quartz is located in Spruce Pine, North Carolina and while there exist alternatives, for cost-competetiveness you want that. Hilariously enough it belongs to Sibelco, which is a Belgian company, but it's still US territory, so subject to local politics.

constantcrying 11mo ago
While it may be true that cost advantages are in that specific quartz, it is not some irreplaceable product. It absolutely would be possible to use other quartz, which would require more processing and increase costs. Do you have any actual examples of things which could not be in sourced into Europe? I am very aware that for many reasons, among them costs, semiconductor fabrication is spread globally. But is there an actual reason why it would be impossible to have every single one of these pieces in some capacity in Europe? Europe is continually moving further apart politically from both the US and China. Relying on the US for supplies and betting on Chinese, Taiwanese peace seems increasingly foolish. How can Europe secure itself in such an environment, without its own semiconductor supply chain?
- jandrewrogers 11mo ago
  A better example is the EUV lithography light sources used by ASML. They are manufactured in the US by a US company ASML acquired with technology licensed from US government labs. That critical part of the business is American in all but name. It is possible that the EU could develop their own state-of-the-art lithography light sources but for now ASML is dependent on the US for it.
- Findecanor 11mo ago
  Silicon for solar cell production is currently being mined and refined in Sweden. What would it take to adapt that production line for semiconductor-grade silicon, I wonder.

noselasd 11mo ago

They are doing _something_ according to https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/policies/european-chips-act https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/policies/european-c... . It'd be good for someone with more knowledge to summarise what this act means though.

constantcrying 11mo ago
This is so grim. What a stark difference to Japan. On one side there is a government setting up a new company, with the aim of competing at the highest end of the most complex technological process in existence. Meanwhile the EU is setting up bureaucrat managed funds to keep the remaining companies, currently suffering from the decline of the German auto industry, alive. Oh and they also paid TSMC to set up a factory, how pathetic.
- p2detar 11mo ago
  > Meanwhile the EU What do you think the EU is? It's not a country, not a federative union. These things need a lot of discussions and synchronization among member countries, it does not work otherwise, so it takes time. I also hold the opinion that time is a resource the EU does not have, so it badly needs to reform itself - its framework no longer works for this "new age".
  - eldaisfish 11mo ago
    the #1 problem with the EU's administrative structure is that its power comes from below, i.e. from the member states. Any of them could pull a Brexit and the entire union could be in jeopardy. The #2 problem is language. Despite what many on HN think, European borders very much exist. They exist via language and bureaucracy. These two combine to create many problems the EU and Europe in general has. The lack of vision, the excruciatingly slow bureaucracy, both are symptoms of the same underlying problems.
- oblio 11mo ago
  The EU can't really do anything. The EU is a loose confederation of countries that delegate responsibilities to this united body. Japan is a single country with a single government that can unilaterally decide what it wants to do.

laughing_man 11mo ago

Isn't Europe the source of almost all the tooling that goes into brand new fabs?

FranzFerdiNaN 11mo ago
Nah, according to Hacker News Europe does nothing except exist and make up rules by 'bureaucrats'.
- ahartmetz 11mo ago
  Laptop sticker "This machine feeds bureaucrats". /s
- tdeck 11mo ago
  It's the lack of 996 grindset holding Europe back.
  - RhysabOweyn 11mo ago
    If only European bureaucrats mortgaged their entire economy on 500 AI scam companies that never produce any profit and sold off their entire manufacturing base to their main adversary. This is how real superpowers roll.
tonyhart7 11mo ago
I think chinnese already made their own "ASML"
- anonzzzies 11mo ago
  With very bad results. I was walking a fab in China a few years ago: all machines are German, Japanese and Dutch. I asked why they don't have Chinese ones: the cto said they exist for the German and Japanese machines but they break much faster so it is not worth it and the asml machines are not there at all in any type of competitive form. It will happen, just not yet I guess.

numbers_guy 11mo ago

European countries are willing to make big bets. The issue is with incompetent leadership. For example they made very big bets on quantum computing and particle accelerators for HEP, both of which have close to zero ROI. Meanwhile, up till very recently AI was sneered at as not "scientific" enough. This is a problem with leadership. The issue is mostly that we put people in leadership positions, who are experts in past technologies but those instincts do not translate well to present technologies.

tonyhart7 11mo ago
non sense Google deepmind headquarter is located in Europe, US tech dominance just that good to attract talent all of europe You can see list of AI researcher that comes from europe+asia
- anonzzzies 11mo ago
  That is incompeten5 leadership no? If your talent wants to move...
- octaane 11mo ago
  Notably though, Deepmind is based in London, UK - not the EU.
  - fastasucan 11mo ago
    London is inside England, which is an european country.
  - tonyhart7 11mo ago
    nowhere I mention EU and you EU crackhead cant comprehend Europe anymore huh????

abc123abc123 11mo ago

Hah... europe will become king of the world! We'll tax and regulate ourselves to enormous wealth! No... jokes aside, europe is a failed union, and will slowly collapse or decompose in a decade or two. Then we can again focus on trade, lowering taxs and creating value. The only thing that is happening now is that the political class has become enormously rich through bribes and by having managed to phase out democracy and enriching themselves.

watwut 11mo ago
You mean, like America is doing right now while simultaneously destroying its international position and quality of life?
- tonyhart7 11mo ago
  "simultaneously destroying its international position" US has been doing the same thing for last 200 years and you act like its been different ??? oh, is that because you dnt get benefit as opposed to instability that US cause like middle east, south america, africa and asia ????
  - watwut 11mo ago
    US was not destroying its own international position for 200 years. Their international position went all the way up in that period. It was also not destroying its own quality of life for 200 years.
    - tonyhart7 11mo ago
      there is nothing to be destroyed if there is no "good reputation" in the first place You are seeing from European perspective but I can assure you that there is people that seeing western country is a "bad guys" from these region because Western power always trying exert their influence via trade deal, regime change, fund armed group etc
      - 11mo ago

traceroute66 11mo ago

> Europe desperately needs to secure its own semi conductor supply chain. To be fair, Europe does have ASML which has something like 2/3 market share in DUV and almost monoplistic in EUV. The moat is enormous, so they are unlikely to face any serious competition for at least a decade if not more.

ricardobeat 11mo ago
China is already catching up. They have a desktop-sized 14nm EUV machine, and Xiami is setting up a 3nm manufacturing line, both entirely with local tech. Thanks USA for the export ban.
- andy_ppp 11mo ago
  Xiami have designed a 3nm chip, however I am not convinced SMIC have a process for them to build the chip at any scale yet. Let's see - eventually China will obviously have a process comparable to TSMC but I think currently they are at least 18 months behind. They were 5 years behind before the sanctions so they are catching up fast.
- speed_spread 11mo ago
  They would be catching up anyway. At least now there will be a second source for the tech. ASML does fantastic work but they may not have all the answers.
- ecshafer 11mo ago
  China has been dumping massive amounts of resources in this for at least 20 years, this (Making chips domestically with local tech) has been a long term goal for a very long time. The chip ban is relatively recent. IF it had an effect it was merely expediting a process that was going to happen regardless. China was NEVER going to be content importing Western chips or western machines to make chips indefinitely.
  - kevin_thibedeau 11mo ago
    The EUV ban is not recent.

Qiu_Zhanxuan 11mo ago

We spent the last 30 years showing deference to good old Uncle Sam, sometimes back-stabbing other member states in the process. How would we ever have the nerves to do something of this scale with all the cooperation, supply chain logistics and engineering complexity that this would involve ?

mikkupikku 11mo ago
Let's be real, it's not America's fault that the EU is dysfunctional in these regards. I'm sure that America does little to actually help, but the biggest problem the EU faces comes from their own internal corruption. Nothing gets done in Europe unless it can be restructured by their corrupt bureaucrats to pay all their friends and relatives, and the process of negotiating how to spread the graft around is highly political and takes many years. This is why the ESA is so dysfunctional despite Arianespace starting from a position of almost commercial launch market dominance at the end of the millennium. They're locked into Ariane 5 development even though it was obsolete on arrival and it will probably take them 20 years to negotiate the corrupt deals that will allow them to design and build something new. This cultural and political dysfunction in European society is entirely the fault of Europeans. India will send people to space before Europe.
- Qiu_Zhanxuan 11mo ago
  Haven't said otherwise, it's our elites "impotent" mentality that is to blame (excuse my french)

zer0tonin 11mo ago

The Netherlands has its own semi supply chain, from photolithographs to chip design to printing the actual chips.

yourusername 11mo ago
I don't think that's right. They make one of the many machines you need for semiconductor manufacturing. The NXP fab in Nijmegen makes simple components on a outdated 140nm+ process with 200mm wafers. Unless there is another fab that is making actual modern chips?
- sehansen 11mo ago
  ST Microelectronics makes 18 nm chips and 6 out of their 7 fabs are in Europe: https://www.st.com/content/st_com/en/about/manufacturing-at-st/our-facilities.html https://www.st.com/content/st_com/en/about/manufacturing-at-...
- justin66 11mo ago
  > They make one of the many machines you need for semiconductor manufacturing. That's an especially obtuse way of minimizing the significance of their manufacture of the most complex machine ever made.

slightwinder 11mo ago

Intel was supposed to build something in Germany some years ago, didn't really work out because of reasons which seems to have been outside of Germany's control. So it's not that they are unwilling, but it just didn't succeed yet.