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> Yeah comments like the parents are typical from people that don't use public transit. The people who can't/aren't going to pay that some people "don't want" o

by eru 1y ago

> Yeah comments like the parents are typical from people that don't use public transit. The people who can't/aren't going to pay that some people "don't want" on public transit are always going to not pay and still use it, so why not make it free for everybody? Huh? I never owned a car and taken public transport all my live, and it's never been much of a problem kicking non-paying people off. What kind of lawless hellholes are you guys living in? (I lived in Germany, Turkey, Britain, Singapore and Australia.)

wetpaws 1y ago
[dead]
BoorishBears 1y ago
I can't tell if you're feigning not realizing the thread about San Francisco under a post referencing "Iowa City" is probably referring to the US. Feels like a coy way of getting to say something as inflammatory as "the US a lawless hellhole" on HN: which is fine enough... but there's also a reason YC isn't a Singaporean or Turkish or British or German institution.
- gonzobonzo 1y ago
  It very well might be genuine surprise. Most people from other countries have an extremely hard time understanding why most U.S. cities allow people to openly break the law in front of authorities with zero consequences. The U.S. is a pretty far outlier in this regard. It's strange how many people in the U.S. don't realize this at all, and become appalled at when foreigners are shocked by the way things are done in U.S. cities.
  - wat10000 1y ago
    Shit HN says.... American exceptionalism is just as silly when it’s “America bad.”
  - crazygringo 1y ago
    The US is pretty average I'd say, not an outlier at all. It's obvious nowhere near e.g. Switzerland or Singapore, for example. But then on the other hand, people obey the rules a ton more than in places like Brazil or India. Just as many foreigners are shocked at how polite and orderly Americans are, compared to back home. The world is a vast and diverse place.
    - eru 1y ago
      I suspect the US is an outlier amongst rich countries. Especially amongst the richest countries (as measured by GDP per capita).
  - BoorishBears 1y ago
    Well I now I think it might be genuine ignorance because you managed to read my pretty clear comment ("everyone is mentioning US cities, so obviously they're talking about the US") and contort it into whatever you're on about. Once might be a coincidence, twice might be me overestimating how carefully people read other comments before jumping into conversations.
j_w 1y ago
What level of punishment should somebody who is trying to move between place to place receive for their lack of paying $1-3? The service was already going to operate, regardless of their lack of payment. Some public transit has a much more rigid fare collection structure - trains are typically much more controlled entry points. But buses? It's in their best interest to get everyone on as quickly as possible and get everyone off as quickly as passive. Are you going to have gates that block you if you don't scan your card/phone from exiting? Same for boarding. Do you dedicate policing resources to ensuring the collection of what is certainly less than the cost to employ the police officer? Seems wasteful until you hit a very high ridership.
- WalterBright 1y ago
  When I was last in London, I took the tube. Officers were at the exit gates, I presume to arrest anyone jumping the gates. I didn't see any fare evaders.
  - hexbin010 1y ago
    That was definitely an exception. Enforcement is low. You will occasionally see a team deployed to hot spots but they are spread thin I see fare evasion almost every time I take the tube
- x0x0 1y ago
  I suspect people want fare enforcement basically because it helps keeps the aggressive/crazy/assholes off. Not because they want to collect more money. Anecdotally, the bart gates seem to have improved the riding experience. Some data from LA: > Of the 153 violent crimes perpetrated on Metro between May 2023 and April 2024, 143 of them — more than 93% — were believed to be committed by people who did not pay a valid fare and were using the transit system illegally. https://ktla.com/news/local-news/metro-violence-largely-perpetrated-by-those-without-legal-fare-stats-show/ https://ktla.com/news/local-news/metro-violence-largely-perp...
  - eru 1y ago
    > I suspect people want fare enforcement basically because it helps keeps the aggressive/crazy/assholes off. Not because they want to collect more money. Well, it's also a matter of fairness: I'm a law-abiding citizen, and I pay for my bus fare. It's the Right Think to do. But if I'm paying, I want the other guys to pay as well.
crazygringo 1y ago
Just New York City. The bus driver's union doesn't want drivers engaging in fare enforcement -- they're hired to drive, not to get into physical altercations. This was especially after a bus driver was stabbed to death in 2008 in a fare dispute. There are fare enforcement teams that partner up with cops to catch people evading the fare, that are trained for this kind of thing. But obviously the chances are miniscule you'd ever encounter them on any single bus trip, and all that's going to happen is you get a summons with a $50-100 fine. So it's quite rational not to pay. And I mean, as a bus rider, the last thing I want is my bus being delayed by 15 minutes while the driver stops and waits for the cops to come to evict someone who didn't pay. I just want to get to where I'm going. So how do they handle it in the cities you've lived in? How do they kick them off without putting the driver in danger and without massively delaying the bus for everyone else? (And to be clear, we're talking about buses, not trains where monitoring entry and exit turnstiles is vastly more realistic.)
- PaulHoule 1y ago
  In the subway in NYC I see some people go out the emergency exits (alarm sounds but who cares?) while other people are queued up waiting for somebody to come out the emergency exit so they can come in. It’s a kind of antisocial social behavior like torrenting pirate files.
  - Spooky23 1y ago
    I actually had a dude yell at me and basically say “are you stupid? Why would you pay?” While holding the gate open. I told him my boss is an asshole and was paying. That made him happy, he said “f that guy” and wished me a good day.
- Dylan16807 1y ago
  > And I mean, as a bus rider, the last thing I want is my bus being delayed by 15 minutes while the driver stops and waits for the cops There's absolutely no need to wait for the cops. They can drive to a stop in front of the bus.
  - 1y ago

by eru 1y ago

wetpaws 1y ago

[dead]

BoorishBears 1y ago

I can't tell if you're feigning not realizing the thread about San Francisco under a post referencing "Iowa City" is probably referring to the US. Feels like a coy way of getting to say something as inflammatory as "the US a lawless hellhole" on HN: which is fine enough... but there's also a reason YC isn't a Singaporean or Turkish or British or German institution.

gonzobonzo 1y ago
It very well might be genuine surprise. Most people from other countries have an extremely hard time understanding why most U.S. cities allow people to openly break the law in front of authorities with zero consequences. The U.S. is a pretty far outlier in this regard. It's strange how many people in the U.S. don't realize this at all, and become appalled at when foreigners are shocked by the way things are done in U.S. cities.
- wat10000 1y ago
  Shit HN says.... American exceptionalism is just as silly when it’s “America bad.”
- crazygringo 1y ago
  The US is pretty average I'd say, not an outlier at all. It's obvious nowhere near e.g. Switzerland or Singapore, for example. But then on the other hand, people obey the rules a ton more than in places like Brazil or India. Just as many foreigners are shocked at how polite and orderly Americans are, compared to back home. The world is a vast and diverse place.
  - eru 1y ago
    I suspect the US is an outlier amongst rich countries. Especially amongst the richest countries (as measured by GDP per capita).
- BoorishBears 1y ago
  Well I now I think it might be genuine ignorance because you managed to read my pretty clear comment ("everyone is mentioning US cities, so obviously they're talking about the US") and contort it into whatever you're on about. Once might be a coincidence, twice might be me overestimating how carefully people read other comments before jumping into conversations.

j_w 1y ago

What level of punishment should somebody who is trying to move between place to place receive for their lack of paying $1-3? The service was already going to operate, regardless of their lack of payment. Some public transit has a much more rigid fare collection structure - trains are typically much more controlled entry points. But buses? It's in their best interest to get everyone on as quickly as possible and get everyone off as quickly as passive. Are you going to have gates that block you if you don't scan your card/phone from exiting? Same for boarding. Do you dedicate policing resources to ensuring the collection of what is certainly less than the cost to employ the police officer? Seems wasteful until you hit a very high ridership.

WalterBright 1y ago
When I was last in London, I took the tube. Officers were at the exit gates, I presume to arrest anyone jumping the gates. I didn't see any fare evaders.
- hexbin010 1y ago
  That was definitely an exception. Enforcement is low. You will occasionally see a team deployed to hot spots but they are spread thin I see fare evasion almost every time I take the tube
x0x0 1y ago
I suspect people want fare enforcement basically because it helps keeps the aggressive/crazy/assholes off. Not because they want to collect more money. Anecdotally, the bart gates seem to have improved the riding experience. Some data from LA: > Of the 153 violent crimes perpetrated on Metro between May 2023 and April 2024, 143 of them — more than 93% — were believed to be committed by people who did not pay a valid fare and were using the transit system illegally. https://ktla.com/news/local-news/metro-violence-largely-perpetrated-by-those-without-legal-fare-stats-show/ https://ktla.com/news/local-news/metro-violence-largely-perp...
- eru 1y ago
  > I suspect people want fare enforcement basically because it helps keeps the aggressive/crazy/assholes off. Not because they want to collect more money. Well, it's also a matter of fairness: I'm a law-abiding citizen, and I pay for my bus fare. It's the Right Think to do. But if I'm paying, I want the other guys to pay as well.

crazygringo 1y ago

Just New York City. The bus driver's union doesn't want drivers engaging in fare enforcement -- they're hired to drive, not to get into physical altercations. This was especially after a bus driver was stabbed to death in 2008 in a fare dispute. There are fare enforcement teams that partner up with cops to catch people evading the fare, that are trained for this kind of thing. But obviously the chances are miniscule you'd ever encounter them on any single bus trip, and all that's going to happen is you get a summons with a $50-100 fine. So it's quite rational not to pay. And I mean, as a bus rider, the last thing I want is my bus being delayed by 15 minutes while the driver stops and waits for the cops to come to evict someone who didn't pay. I just want to get to where I'm going. So how do they handle it in the cities you've lived in? How do they kick them off without putting the driver in danger and without massively delaying the bus for everyone else? (And to be clear, we're talking about buses, not trains where monitoring entry and exit turnstiles is vastly more realistic.)

PaulHoule 1y ago
In the subway in NYC I see some people go out the emergency exits (alarm sounds but who cares?) while other people are queued up waiting for somebody to come out the emergency exit so they can come in. It’s a kind of antisocial social behavior like torrenting pirate files.
- Spooky23 1y ago
  I actually had a dude yell at me and basically say “are you stupid? Why would you pay?” While holding the gate open. I told him my boss is an asshole and was paying. That made him happy, he said “f that guy” and wished me a good day.
Dylan16807 1y ago
> And I mean, as a bus rider, the last thing I want is my bus being delayed by 15 minutes while the driver stops and waits for the cops There's absolutely no need to wait for the cops. They can drive to a stop in front of the bus.
- 1y ago