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Everytime I see these kinds of arguments, it sounds like someone desperately trying to argue that a park playground is almost as entertaining for kids as an amu

by prng2021 11mo ago

Everytime I see these kinds of arguments, it sounds like someone desperately trying to argue that a park playground is almost as entertaining for kids as an amusement park. Your example of 5 kids socializing with each other is definitely better than 1 kid at home. It’s also definitely worse than learning to socialize in a school of 500 kids each day. This is undeniable unless you have an argument of how a pool of 500 kids would somehow have less diversity of personality, thought, languages, physical features, intelligence, etc.

sib 11mo ago
But it may be much better than dealing with the problems that come with having 500 "random" kids to socialize / interact with. Everything's a tradeoff.
- only-one1701 11mo ago
  Yeah, wouldn’t want kids to learn how to deal with problems.
  - aeroevan 11mo ago
    Dealing with adult problems shouldn't be something kids have to learn, as long as the problems scale with their development that's not a problem
eucyclos 11mo ago
>This is undeniable unless you have an argument of how a pool of 500 kids would somehow have less diversity of personality, thought, languages, physical features, intelligence, etc. I have such an argument - have you considered the amount of forced social conformity in a public school versus a community of homeschooled people? Humans are weird in a way that 'public school culture' tries to paper over.
- Melatonic 11mo ago
  What social conformity is forced by schools these days ? Only one I can really remember was we had specific uniforms for PE (basically just gym shorts and a tshirt)
  - eucyclos 11mo ago
    not the school administration, other students.
    - ethbr1 11mo ago
      So, good training for exactly the same pressures they'll face as adults?
      - bdangubic 11mo ago
        well today’s parents do just about everything except prepare their children for adulthood
      - sarchertech 11mo ago
        I’m not against public schools, but pretending the social pressures are anywhere near similar is wrong. Kids are assholes in a way that would get most adults fired or imprisoned. There are social pressures to conform, but you don’t get called names for wearing off brand shoes the way kids were when I was in grade school.
        hackable_sand 11mo ago
        They are the same pressures. They occur in the same proportions. Children are just really bad at it so it is extremely obvious. The rituals do not disappear when you turn 18. They do not disappear when you turn 98.
        tomp 11mo ago
        Probably AI generated. Every actual human with lived experience in society knows, that real life is much more diverse than school. In school, there’s at best a few cliques and mostly a single social hierarchy. After school, even during student years, but even more so when entering the workforce, there’s incredible variety of social hierarchies to climb, skills to learn and excel within, and career paths to take. Zero comparison to school.
singpolyma3 11mo ago
Except you don't interact with a meaningful section of those 500 kids you get stuck most of the day with a small % all the same age as you and told not to talk to each other.
biztos 11mo ago
I went to a school of about 50 kids, and I often wished I’d been at a school of 500 or more kids, but looking back I’m very glad my family didn’t opt for the school of 5000 kids. At 50 kids, if you were social you definitely had friends (not just acquaintances) from very different socioeconomic backgrounds. At 50 kids, you could play sports on the official team if you wanted to and showed up and didn’t slack off. You knew everyone and there were no cliques, that would have been ridiculous with 50 kids. I could go on, but those are just a few things (IMO good things) you get in a tiny school that you probably wouldn’t have at 500 kids and surely not at 5000. I find it strange that you don’t hear of more homeschooling groups pulling together to create something like the 50-kid school.
- aeroevan 11mo ago
  My son is in a co-op with around that number of kids, but that's total (through HS). The co-op I was in 30 years ago was a bit smaller but sounds like it's still going strong (no clue how big it is these days though). So there definitely are homeschooling co-ops around that size. I do wonder what the average size of a co-op is though
ecshafer 11mo ago
The way I look at it if I were to end up homeschooling my kid wouldn't socialize with the ~5 kids in the co-op. * co-op * Ballet * Fencing * Gymnastics * Math Circle * Church / Fellowship * Neighbors * Family & Friends That easily adds up to 50 children their age. But my thinking isn't really about the numbers of socialization. Public school academics move at a glacial pace. They don't have a sufficient rigor, lack a decent education in mathematics, neglect the classics and philosophy, and have started to neglect the western canon in favor of contemporary literature which is poorly written and offers little value. There are also, even in the best schools, trouble students that disrupt classrooms.
- drivebyhooting 11mo ago
  In my neighborhood: * there is no co-op. Meeting another homeschooler is a whole day affair due to traffic * ballet and other extracurricular are fine, but always after school hours when traffic is terrible * math circle is so oversubscribed you have to test to get into it * neighbors’ kids are locked in school all day and then doing their custom extracurricular. We never see them. * family & friends, we have none. Nonetheless we homeschool. We can cover 2 years of math and reading in 6 months.
  - bdangubic 11mo ago
    and what does “covering 2 years of math and reading in 6 months” do for you? getting ready to send your kids to 9-5 grind when they are 12?
    - drivebyhooting 11mo ago
      I hope they’ll have more options than I did. I never wanted to be a SWE working in social media, but grad school in pure math showed me I wasn’t good enough. A common story.
      - bdangubic 11mo ago
        your kids will have amazing opportunities just because you are obviously a kick ass parent. but I don’t think squeezing two years of math in 6 months will do anything
programjames 11mo ago
I think quality over quantity matters. There was no one at my academic level at the public school, but two lived at my house. If you're worried about social skills, why do you expect an open admissions school to be able to train your children better than a more curated social group? You could say, "I don't trust parents to actually give their children experiences that would be beneficial, because maybe the parents are bigots or something," which like, sure is true. Lots of parents are like that. But they already pretty much have free reign to put their child in the local Bible Bootcamp instead of the public high school, so you're not really preventing this bad thing from happening, but you are preventing a lot of parents who would give their children a better experience than the local vaudeville show.

sib 11mo ago

But it may be much better than dealing with the problems that come with having 500 "random" kids to socialize / interact with. Everything's a tradeoff.

only-one1701 11mo ago
Yeah, wouldn’t want kids to learn how to deal with problems.
- aeroevan 11mo ago
  Dealing with adult problems shouldn't be something kids have to learn, as long as the problems scale with their development that's not a problem

eucyclos 11mo ago

>This is undeniable unless you have an argument of how a pool of 500 kids would somehow have less diversity of personality, thought, languages, physical features, intelligence, etc. I have such an argument - have you considered the amount of forced social conformity in a public school versus a community of homeschooled people? Humans are weird in a way that 'public school culture' tries to paper over.

Melatonic 11mo ago
What social conformity is forced by schools these days ? Only one I can really remember was we had specific uniforms for PE (basically just gym shorts and a tshirt)
- eucyclos 11mo ago
  not the school administration, other students.
  - ethbr1 11mo ago
    So, good training for exactly the same pressures they'll face as adults?
    - bdangubic 11mo ago
      well today’s parents do just about everything except prepare their children for adulthood
    - sarchertech 11mo ago
      I’m not against public schools, but pretending the social pressures are anywhere near similar is wrong. Kids are assholes in a way that would get most adults fired or imprisoned. There are social pressures to conform, but you don’t get called names for wearing off brand shoes the way kids were when I was in grade school.
      - hackable_sand 11mo ago
        They are the same pressures. They occur in the same proportions. Children are just really bad at it so it is extremely obvious. The rituals do not disappear when you turn 18. They do not disappear when you turn 98.
        tomp 11mo ago
        Probably AI generated. Every actual human with lived experience in society knows, that real life is much more diverse than school. In school, there’s at best a few cliques and mostly a single social hierarchy. After school, even during student years, but even more so when entering the workforce, there’s incredible variety of social hierarchies to climb, skills to learn and excel within, and career paths to take. Zero comparison to school.

singpolyma3 11mo ago

Except you don't interact with a meaningful section of those 500 kids you get stuck most of the day with a small % all the same age as you and told not to talk to each other.

biztos 11mo ago

I went to a school of about 50 kids, and I often wished I’d been at a school of 500 or more kids, but looking back I’m very glad my family didn’t opt for the school of 5000 kids. At 50 kids, if you were social you definitely had friends (not just acquaintances) from very different socioeconomic backgrounds. At 50 kids, you could play sports on the official team if you wanted to and showed up and didn’t slack off. You knew everyone and there were no cliques, that would have been ridiculous with 50 kids. I could go on, but those are just a few things (IMO good things) you get in a tiny school that you probably wouldn’t have at 500 kids and surely not at 5000. I find it strange that you don’t hear of more homeschooling groups pulling together to create something like the 50-kid school.

aeroevan 11mo ago
My son is in a co-op with around that number of kids, but that's total (through HS). The co-op I was in 30 years ago was a bit smaller but sounds like it's still going strong (no clue how big it is these days though). So there definitely are homeschooling co-ops around that size. I do wonder what the average size of a co-op is though

ecshafer 11mo ago

The way I look at it if I were to end up homeschooling my kid wouldn't socialize with the ~5 kids in the co-op. * co-op * Ballet * Fencing * Gymnastics * Math Circle * Church / Fellowship * Neighbors * Family & Friends That easily adds up to 50 children their age. But my thinking isn't really about the numbers of socialization. Public school academics move at a glacial pace. They don't have a sufficient rigor, lack a decent education in mathematics, neglect the classics and philosophy, and have started to neglect the western canon in favor of contemporary literature which is poorly written and offers little value. There are also, even in the best schools, trouble students that disrupt classrooms.

drivebyhooting 11mo ago
In my neighborhood: * there is no co-op. Meeting another homeschooler is a whole day affair due to traffic * ballet and other extracurricular are fine, but always after school hours when traffic is terrible * math circle is so oversubscribed you have to test to get into it * neighbors’ kids are locked in school all day and then doing their custom extracurricular. We never see them. * family & friends, we have none. Nonetheless we homeschool. We can cover 2 years of math and reading in 6 months.
- bdangubic 11mo ago
  and what does “covering 2 years of math and reading in 6 months” do for you? getting ready to send your kids to 9-5 grind when they are 12?
  - drivebyhooting 11mo ago
    I hope they’ll have more options than I did. I never wanted to be a SWE working in social media, but grad school in pure math showed me I wasn’t good enough. A common story.
    - bdangubic 11mo ago
      your kids will have amazing opportunities just because you are obviously a kick ass parent. but I don’t think squeezing two years of math in 6 months will do anything

programjames 11mo ago

I think quality over quantity matters. There was no one at my academic level at the public school, but two lived at my house. If you're worried about social skills, why do you expect an open admissions school to be able to train your children better than a more curated social group? You could say, "I don't trust parents to actually give their children experiences that would be beneficial, because maybe the parents are bigots or something," which like, sure is true. Lots of parents are like that. But they already pretty much have free reign to put their child in the local Bible Bootcamp instead of the public high school, so you're not really preventing this bad thing from happening, but you are preventing a lot of parents who would give their children a better experience than the local vaudeville show.