10 ms·
A time-travelling door bug in Half Life 2
- Panzerschrek 11mo agoIt seems to be typical - some calculations break while switching from x87 to SSE. The same happened with TF2 too - it's ammo calculation code worked slightly differently on GNU/Linux build of the game, because it was built with SSE instructions (Windows version still used x87).
- arcfour 11mo agoI think the only visible effect from that was the Engineer's metal, giving +40 or +41 from a small box, depending on the server platform (all classes technically do have metal, but the others can't use it). It was always fun to play on a new server and check what OS it was running that way, too. :-)
- stoltzmann 11mo agoAnd IIRC ammo for heavy and health for soldier!
- MBCook 11mo agoI’m surprised to hear the ammo calculation code would use floats.
- bakugo 11mo agoThe game has ammo pickups that refill 20% and 50% of whatever your max ammo is, so floats have to be involved in there somewhere.
- HaroldCindy 11mo agoI expect this is / was a very common problem for people porting 32-bit game code to newer compilers. I work on a fairly old codebase that forces use of x87 for a handful of code paths that don't work correctly otherwise. GCC will use default to x87 if you do an i386 compile, but will default to SSE for 64-bit builds, so you have to be careful there too.
- netsharc 11mo agoMeta: I'm going to make a Twitter clone that bans you if you use it as a multi-paragraph blogging platform... god damn !#@#%!!!.
- fragmede 11mo agoI'll make one that's the opposite (your post must be at least two paragraphs and an LLM is going to judge your text to make sure it's not lorum Ipsum) if you'll help me get users.
- viraptor 11mo agoDo you actively want the linked thread to not exist? Because not having this posting option does not mean it would appear anywhere else.
- bathtub365 11mo agoHere’s a link with the thread unrolled onto a single page: https://mastoreader.io/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmastodon.gamedev.place%2F%40TomF%2F115589875974658415 https://mastoreader.io/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmastodon.gamedev.p...
- tiborsaas 11mo agoI feel you, it's super annoying.
- Wowfunhappy 11mo agoWait, so is that "beta" of Half Life 2 VR a thing I can play? If it is, how did I not know about this, and if not... why not? I'd also love to play Portal, actually. They say it makes you sick, but to my knowledge I'm immune from VR motion sickness, so worth a try...
- aranelsurion 11mo agoI don’t know about the beta, but there’s an excellent HL2 VR conversion mod you can play today. It feels just right and got me to play HL2 again after all these years.
- Philpax 11mo agohttps://store.steampowered.com/app/658920/HalfLife_2_VR_Mod/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/658920/HalfLife_2_VR_Mod/
- accrual 11mo agoFantastic! If HL3 releases on VR, maybe I'll do HL2 in VR (refresher), then Alyx, then HL3. :)
- phantasmish 11mo agoHL3 exclusively in VR is likely the only thing that’d get me to increase my “time spent in VR” from the current about-ten-minutes to about six hours.
- nasretdinov 11mo agoI wonder how on earth stuff like x86->ARM translation works so well if games break even after switching from x87 registers to SSE preserving all the logic otherwise...
- toast0 11mo agoI think x87 fpu is the only 'weird' floating point units left. I think if you stick with 64-bit double precision floats or 32-bit single precision floats, where the registers are also 64 or 32 bits, all the modern stuff behaves the same. x87 is just weird because registers are 80-bits ... the idea was to have more accurate results from more precision, but it ends up weird because if you run out of registers and have to spill to memory, you typically lose precision. Edit: since this post was second chanced, I can add on that some of the pre-PC consoles have weird floats too. If they had floats at all. Lots of fun for emulation developers. Even fun for contemporaneous game developers... PilotWings on the SNES comes with different revision accelerator chips and the demo only works properly on the early revision chips (but I think? the later revision chips have more accurate math). The PS2 FPU has weirdness around NaN, Infinity, very large numbers, and denormalized numbers. Etc.
- kineticdaffodil 11mo agoWhat about arm, with software floats its compiler depending?
- ErroneousBosh 11mo agoIt's probably because you have to have weird precision issues where the numbers are calculated ever so slightly differently, and some other effect like a guard being slightly too close and getting clipped by a door where that difference matters. I debugged some software synthesizer code a while back (like 20 years or so now I think of it) where a build of it on one platform failed because of a precision bug. I can't remember the details, but there was a lot of "works fine on my machine" type discussion around it. Anyway it relied on a crude simulation of an RC circuit reaching very close to 0 asymptotically to trigger a state change, but on something like 64-bit Intel with a specific processor it never quite made it low enough to trip the comparison because of something to do with not flushing denormals. From an electronic standpoint, making it simulate "it's high enough" as being about 0.7 and " it's low enough" being about 0.01 was far closer to the instrument they were trying to simulate, and making it massively imprecise like that got it going on everything.
- HelloUsername 11mo agoDOOR STUCK https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBIh06_bmq0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBIh06_bmq0
- shellwizard 11mo agoOriginal version https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqB1uoDTdKM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqB1uoDTdKM
- HelloUsername 11mo agoAs mentioned in the description :)
- g7r 11mo agoAh, nice story! This reminds me of another story with FPU involved. I was a game developer once. We were making a game that consistently triggered assertion failures related to FPU calculations, but only on a single PC in the whole office. The game was explicitly setting FPU precision to 32 bits at the start to make all calculations more consistent. However, on that particular PC, there was a fancy hand writing input software that injected its DLL into every process. As you've probably already guessed, that DLL did FPU mode reset to the default in the event handling loop (i.e., main thread). I had to shift FPU mode setting code from process initialization to the event handling loop to be able to deal with the damage that third party DLLs could inflict.
- Ericson2314 11mo agoIt's a goal of mine to get Valve using Nix. (I hope our in-progress Windows support would make this especially compelling.) One advantage of this is that it will become very easy to not only build the original source of the game, but also build it with the original toolchain and dependencies, the toolchains for those dependencies, etc. etc., all the way down. Hopefully something like that at your finger trips would have made finding the root cause of this bug a good bit easier!
- throwaway314155 11mo ago> It's a goal of mine to get Valve using Nix They’re using Arch Linux. Let’s call it a win and move on lol.
- Ericson2314 11mo agoUsing completely different packaging infrastructure for the different platforms you support is no good! The goal with Nix should be that you can use the same infrastructure for all of Linux, macOS, and Windows. (And other Unixes, other OSes, etc. etc.)
- bpye 11mo ago> I hope our in-progress Windows support would make this especially compelling. What is the current story for using Nix to build Windows binaries?
- Ericson2314 11mo agoOn Nixpkgs master, you can cross compile to MinGW and Cygwin. Native Cygwin builds are also currently in progress: https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/447520 https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/447520. I would expect this to be done very soon, there year even (holidays permitting). There is a MinGW build of Nix but it is missing some features. There has been MSVC build of a fork in the past and I would like to revive that also. There some some open questions relating to Nixpkgs's heavy use of Bash, but longer term I would like to compete for Windows in all ways: - Support all cross (MinGW, Cygwin/MSYS2, MSVC ABI with LLVM, MSVC with Wine) - Be Cygwin packages - Be https://github.com/msys2/MINGW-packages https://github.com/msys2/MINGW-packages / https://github.com/msys2/MSYS2-packages https://github.com/msys2/MSYS2-packages - Be VCPKG All these things have slightly different trade-offs, and Nixpkgs is very good at portability, so we should simply do them all.
- zX41ZdbW 11mo agoThis reminds me of an old bug in simdjson - any usage of it breaks std::unordered_map in unrelated parts of the code due to an unintentional modification of FPU flags: https://github.com/simdjson/simdjson/issues/169 https://github.com/simdjson/simdjson/issues/169
- mattgreenrocks 11mo agoBeautiful, and by that, I mean completely and utterly horrific.
- YouAreWRONGtoo 11mo ago[dead]
- why_at 11mo ago>a big innovation of HL2 was the extensive use of a real physics engine. The door and the guard are both physical objects, both have momentum, they impart an impulse on each other, and although the door hinge is frictionless, the guard's boots have some amount of friction with the floor. It's been a while since I've played HL2 but this isn't exactly how I remember it. While a lot of things were physics objects I thought the doors would just smoothly rotate towards their target position without any physics at all. You can't bump them shut with another physics object for instance.
- sigmoid10 11mo agoYou can't move them (apart from the opening and closing animation), but they can move other objects that are in their way. Both need to be physics objects for that to work, even though the door is just kinematic (i.e. it won't react to forces applied to it). Although if I remember correctly, they are not even fully kinematic. I think you could get them stuck halfway closed by cramming something in the door frame that would get the whole thing jammed.
- Lammy 11mo ago> I think you could get them stuck halfway closed by cramming something in the door frame that would get the whole thing jammed. This was a popular griefing tactic when TF2 first came out where you could trap everyone in spawn by crouch-jumping into the spawn door as Scout: https://youtu.be/JUPzN7tp7bQ?t=243 https://youtu.be/JUPzN7tp7bQ?t=243
- sigmoid10 11mo agoYeah this seems to be exactly the same issue that Valve eventually discovered in the Mastodon thread linked by OP.
- accrual 11mo agoJust did some quick testing - the doors definitely have physics and can get stuck on objects and can impart forces. But unimpeded yes, they smoothly open/close. I stuck a tire in a door frame and tried to close it, the tire emitted a bunch of dust clouds as the two objects fought before the door finally ejected the tire at high speed.
- accrual 11mo ago> The door and the guard are both physical objects, both have momentum, they impart an impulse on each other I wonder if the term "impulse" here has any connection to the various impulse commands available in the source engine. I remember using "impulse 101" and causing havok in the opening plaza area. Spawning zombies on the roofs, sending them after the combine, etc. https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Impulse https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Impulse
- ThrowawayR2 11mo agoImpulse is change in momentum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impulse_(physics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impulse_(physics)
- accrual 11mo agoRight, I was just wondering if the developers repurposed the term impulse from the physics engine when creating console commands. "impulse 101" is a common cheat to give all weapons with ammo, but why not "give" or "player.addItem" or something? Just a curiosity.
- sznio 11mo agoAs for the name "impulse", I don't know - but the way this command works reminds me of interrupts. The impulse command sends a command to the server instantly, rather than in the usual UserCmd sent to the server 30 times per second. They are used mostly for debugging, just assign #90 to your debugging function, then poke it from the console while the game is running. No need to change and potentially break the network code.
- WatchDog 11mo agoThe impulse console command originates from Quake, the Half-Life 1 engine (GoldSrc[0]), was based on the Quake engine, and the Half-Life 2 engine (Source), was based on GoldSrc. In quake, the impulse commands were used mostly to switch weapons[1]. I'm not really sure about the naming though, why choose the word "impulse". [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GoldSrc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GoldSrc. [1]: https://github.com/id-Software/Quake/blob/0023db327bc1db00068284b70e1db45857aeee35/QW/progs/weapons.qc#L1075-L1122 https://github.com/id-Software/Quake/blob/0023db327bc1db0006...
- dev0p 11mo ago>But on the SSE version, a whole bunch of tiny precisions are very slightly different, and a combination of the friction on the floor and the mass of the objects means the guard still rotates from the collision, but now he rotates very slightly less far. Insanity. The values were just right. Just wow.
- FrostKiwi 11mo agoA Valve employee using YouTube Playthroughs [1] to diagnose a bug is hilarious to me. Awesome story. [1] https://mastodon.gamedev.place/@TomF/115589894339657055 https://mastodon.gamedev.place/@TomF/115589894339657055
- lomase 11mo agoIs Valve porting HL2 to VR? A 2013, sorry.
- stevefan1999 11mo agoReminds me of what G-Man said in the opening scene of HL2: "The right man in the wrong place can make all the differences in the world"
- powerclue 11mo agoIndeed, that quote is deployed prominently in red text in the thread, in fact.
- voidUpdate 11mo agoIs there an alternative place to read this, for those of us with strict work network rules that consider mastodon as social media?
- dewey 11mo agoBookmark the thread for after work?
- guidopallemans 11mo agoChuck in a !wayback before the url, it gets you here: https://web.archive.org/web/20251124090635/https://mastodon.gamedev.place/@TomF/115589875974658415 https://web.archive.org/web/20251124090635/https://mastodon.... edit: wayback machine doesn't work, though !ais does: https://archive.is/ng0ke https://archive.is/ng0ke
- gambiting 11mo agoI used to work at the studio responsible for the Driver games, and few years back we dug out the code for the original PC Driver and tried to compile it again, mostly for fun - we had to change a lot of hand written assembly code to make it build, and discovered that yeah, the game worked but none of the game replays worked - and it was for that exact same reason, better/different floating point precision issues. Really fun thing to investigate though.
- brokenmachine 11mo agoNothing to do with the actual story which was very interesting, but I just find it so absurd that in 2025 we're still splitting posts into paragraphs because of some weird historical character limit on tweets. And some of those posts are way longer than tweets used to be, but we're still splitting them for no real reason than to make them tweets instead of blog posts?
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 11mo agoWorse is better, it's easier to write inline on your Fediverse account than to write a blog post somewhere else and syndicate it
- DarmokJalad1701 10mo agoI have encountered at least one bug at $job which was tracked down to x87 instructions. Our "production" build is deployed on embedded ARM CPUs while we have test builds compiled for x86 (32-bit) and x86_64 (different subsets of functionality). Anyway, the bug only showed up in the 32-bit x86 build. The same code worked fine in production and in the 64-bit test builds. It turned out to be an x87 bug where a piece of code was actually computing the wrong answer!. Logically following the code would make you think that the particular failure in question would never happen - and yet it did. That was quite a rabbit-hole to go into to figure out.