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This will become increasingly important as Google has boiled the frog too fast while trying to force its new store policies + banning sideloading; however, all
by toastal 11mo ago
This will become increasingly important as Google has boiled the frog too fast while trying to force its new store policies + banning sideloading; however, all of the pieces are now in place for them to try again in a year or 2, which history shows us they will. It’s certainly time to start toying with Linux phones if you haven’t already. This year I picked up an Xperia 10 to flash Sailfish OS on—which has rough edges (many of the hardware issues should be fixed in the next release), but Android App support bridges some of the gaps in application support.
- 24t 11mo ago> sideloading It's called installing. Language matters and I see no reason to concede this point in Google's favour.
- cbolton 11mo agoYou can also install through the Play store. Sideloading is more specific.
- makeitdouble 11mo agoWould you make the same distinction on a mac when installing Photoshop from the Adobe installer vs installing KeyNote from the MacStore ?
- cbolton 11mo agoI'm not too familiar with macOS... How normal/expected is it now to install through the App Store? As mentioned in another comment, for a Linux distribution like Debian there are highly trusted official repositories, and I think using "sideloading" for other sources would make some sense.
- makeitdouble 11mo agoOn macos I assume most apps are installed outside of the Store, straight from the developper's site. Which would make the Store a "sideloading" channel by that token ? On Linux you have the default package sources, but for instance adding third party sources will still integrate the same with the system, I also never heard someone call installing Go or Java "side loading", though you're getting an installer from the site you need to run on your own. Same way for building from source. IMHO "sideloading" would not apply to any system open enough, where adding stuff from multiple sources is expected from the start.
- cbolton 11mo ago> Which would make the Store a "sideloading" channel by that token ? I don't think so, it's still an official channel offered by the OS maker. > adding third party sources will still integrate the same with the system but obviously with a higher risk of breakage since it was not tested while the official release was cooking (at least for Debian the official set of packages in stable is expected to have virtually no conflict issues, but as soon as you add third-party sources all bets are off). > I also never heard someone call installing Go or Java "side loading" neither have I, but I can imagine that in some contexts it could be a useful term. Like "did you sideload Go?" (implicitly asking if you got the third-party release vs installing from the official distribution repository). I'm not saying people say that, but that the term might also make sense in the Linux world. > IMHO "sideloading" would not apply to any system open enough, where adding stuff from multiple sources is expected from the start. Yeah if there's no sense of "main" channels that are more trusted or more stable the term doesn't make sense.
- devsda 11mo agoLike hacking, sideloading is now a loaded & misunderstood term. It is considered as something only nerds or bad actors do. Let's just call it alternate install.
- mrighele 11mo agoOr manual install.
- exe34 11mo agoHow about calling the other one "installing from the play store"? installing was there first.
- miroljub 11mo agoExactly. Let's invent a word for "installing from play store". Playstoring? So we can rewrite the story to something like: Google wants to prohibit app installation on Android phones. The only way to get an app would be through playstoring.
- fainpul 11mo agoCorpoloading
- amelius 11mo agoNannyloading
- 11mo ago
- engeljohnb 11mo agoI can install on my Fedora laptop through dnf. I've never felt like I needed a new word to describe downloading and running an AppImage. Why would phones be different?
- tonyhart7 11mo agowell because its not allowed to "install" from third party sources (atleast not yet) google has control on their android ecosystem behave, same reason why its not allowed in playstation or xbox or ios
- engeljohnb 11mo agoThe whole selling point of Android up until now was that it allowed you to install any app you want. The point of the above comment is that Google intentionally introduced the word "sideload" to make "installing an app on your own device which Google did not curate" sound more risky and sinister than it is, and I'm inclined to agree. I "make" coffee on my keurig. If Keurig decides that making any single-serve coffe pods that aren't owned by the Keurig brand is now called "off-brewing," I'd dismiss it as ridiculous and continue calling it "making coffee." We should use the language that makes sense, not the language that happens be good PR for google.
- tonyhart7 11mo ago"The whole selling point of Android up until now was that it allowed you to install any app you want." we can debate whether this is bad thing or good thing, it would have no ends what matters is reality, the reality is google have the right to change it.
- engeljohnb 11mo agoYou've changed the subject. We were discussing whether one ought to use Google's term for it, or the term that's been used to describe this action since (I assume) the beginning of personal computing. Not whether Google is legally allowed to make the change. My reason for bringing up the "selling point" was to bring attention to the language -- "You can install any app you want" has always been the common refrain when I see friends get into a debate about IOS vs Android. People are already using the term because it makes the most sense.
- geokon 11mo agoDoesn't feel like any conspiracy.. Isn't sideloading installing through adb instead of from the system itself? (by clicking on an APK or using an app Store like Xiaomi/Googled/Huawei/Fdroid) "Side" being.. from your computer
- 24t 11mo agoYes but fdroid is facing restrictions while adb is not
- geokon 11mo agosure, google is trying to cash in. not saying theyre nice people. but the handwringing over semantics and suggesting Google has a master plan to abuse vocabular just sounds ridiculous
- lukan 11mo agoSo you do know, they want to make profit. You also know, what is commonly used for making profit? PR. And they are all about changing the meaning of words, to achieve a certain effect in people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torches_of_Freedom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torches_of_Freedom What exactly is ridiculous to the idea, that maybe there was a google meeting where the name was debated and the pro and cons of different names evaluated from their buisness perspective?
- slightwinder 11mo agoNo, on android, it always meant installing an APK directly, without a store-app. You can use ADB, but you also can just download the APK on your device and install it locally with your browser or filemanager.
- griffzhowl 11mo agoI agree with the ethos but "banning installing" wouldn't have been correct here. There should be terminology for installing from the source of your choice which doesn't carry the marginal or sinister connotations of "sideloading" though. "Freeloading" would have been a good one but... yeah
- 24t 11mo agoI'm not suggesting a drop-in replacement within that context, just that widening the definition of sideloading does us no favours 'installing from beyond the walled garden' would be a nice fit here imo
- griffzhowl 11mo agoextramuraloading?
- graemep 11mo ago"Freely installing"?
- cuu508 11mo ago"banning installing from anywhere but play store"
- green7ea 11mo agoWouldn't it be accurate to say that you can no longer install apps on your phone, only Google can?
- dpoloncsak 11mo agoIf we're being pedantic, the user still has to perform the final action before the install begins. I think it' more "Google has to allow you to install apps on your phone"
- LtWorf 11mo agoAnd they've never allowed the users to uninstall certain apps. (interestingly the keyboard app is not among these, so my sister has uninstalled it by mistake once)
- estimator7292 11mo agoLanguage matters, so don't let google turn sideloading into a dirty word. It was called sideloading before Google was even founded.
- embedding-shape 11mo agoMy first encounter with "sideloading" I think was loading up a MP3 player with music, for some reason that was called "sideloading" by some people. In that case, "sideloading" was just transferring basically, nothing about installing. But once Android appeared, and there was one Google-approved way of installing applications (Google Store) and one way of installing directly from .apk after enabling "Unknown Sources", then the word started to be used for the second approach. I don't remember if it was Google who started using "sideloading" or the community itself, but regardless, "installing" would be a more understandable word for anyone to use for the processing of installing an application on your phone, as (what I recall to be) the original meaning was just transferring.
- AdmiralAsshat 11mo ago> My first encounter with "sideloading" I think was loading up a MP3 player with music, for some reason that was called "sideloading" by some people. In that case, "sideloading" was just transferring basically, nothing about installing. Probably influenced by the original iPod, which really wanted you to sync your iPod with your iTunes library (conveniently directing you to purchase all of your music from Apple's platform). "Sideloading" referred to the few extra steps to get your computer to simply expose the iPod as a removable storage device and drag-and-drop your mp3s over that way. It wouldn't have made sense in the context of other mp3 players, because for many of the ones I remember (like my Creative Zen Touch), that was the only way to add the mp3s. I don't think Creative even supplied a front-end media manager...or if they did, I never bothered installing it.
- embedding-shape 11mo agoYeah, people in my circles and also people on the internet would refer to it as "sideloading" even though none of us were using iPods (I think this was all before the iPod actually, but my memory is a bit hazy), just copy-paste the files with explorer.exe over to the built-in MP3 player storage, people calling it "sideloading".
- tapia 11mo agoI just bought a second Fairphone 4 just to play a bit with pmOS. I'm really surprised by the state it is. It's not fully usable as a daily driver yet, but with some work it can get there. Waydroid works also pretty good. Of course, the major problem are banking apps and similar. I hope that some progress can be done in this direction. And, who needs working audio, if you can have python and git in your phone!? :P
- toastal 11mo agoI made a partition for Nix on mine so I have all the tools I need while not relying on Jolla to package things (the installable package list is quite barren). My audio works from the speakers, but the patches to make the headphone jack (something you Fairphone users no longer know of :P) work won’t come til the next release. For banks, I just use cash or log into the website on my laptop if required—while I will refuse goods/services that require an apps to the fullest extent possible (couldn’t get around TicketMaster which was a real blood-boiler beyond just the “phone required” aspect).
- tapia 11mo agoYes, I think that just trying to use services that don't require special mobile apps can get you a long way. It is sometimes difficult, but now I'm beginning to move more in this direction :)
- toastal 11mo agoIt’s the same as unGoogling your life where you can slowly start moving off one service at a time & make sure new ones you use are open or at least otherwise ethical.
- pbmonster 11mo ago> Waydroid works also pretty good. Did you test apps that need sensors and notifications? If I want to run an OpenStreetmaps apk (there's no good way to run OMS on Linux natively), do I get GPS and compass heading? Do I get turn-by-turn navigation? Even if the app is in the background?
- palata 11mo agoWhat I never get is: why not prepare to fork AOSP? I like the security model of AOSP :-).
- realusername 11mo agoSome people (like myself) prefer the desktop userland which is more familiar and works like you would expect as opposed to the android quirks. eOS is basically what you are looking for for most phones or GrapheneOS (pixel only)
- charcircuit 11mo agoThat's already happening today. https://grapheneos.org/ https://grapheneos.org/ But for the reason an antiquated os like postmarketos are suggested is that the project is being opportunistic thinking this is a chance they can be relevant. Additionally, the population of HN has more sentimental view on these legacy operating systems and view it as a chance to go back to the past and use software they are familiar with.
- MYEUHD 11mo ago> That's already happening today. That's not a hard fork. They always rebase on top of AOSP when there's a new AOSP source release
- realusername 11mo agoNobody really want a hard fork, if you can't run Android apps, you might as well use a Linux distribution.
- palata 11mo agoWell the idea would be to run Android apps on the hard fork :-).
- realusername 11mo ago
- gwbas1c 11mo ago> I picked up an Xperia I had an Xperia for awhile. I liked it while it was new, but after a year the back started peeling off. Pretty lousy for a phone that was supposed to be waterproof. At that point I realized that the Japanese change out their phones every 6-12 months, thus Sony didn't realize that the market demands much longer reliability in a smartphone.
- toastal 11mo agoThey do a good job contributing upstream to the kernel & are one of the few phones out there that still allow users to unlock the bootloader & they support headphone jacks + microSD cards.
- gwbas1c 11mo agoHonestly, if mine didn't fall apart after reasonable use, I'd probably still be an Xperia user today.
- surcap526 11mo ago[dead]