9 ms·

Android/Linux Dual Boot

290 points by joooscha 11mo ago

dotancohen 11mo ago
The wiki has instructions for the N900! Not everything works, but it appears to be a work in progress.
- hexagonwin 11mo ago
  For the N900, Maemo Leste <https://maemo-leste.github.io/ https://maemo-leste.github.io/> would be a good choice, if not even better.
  - sschueller 11mo ago
    Nice, I still have my N900 but my provider here (Swisscom Switzerland) is killing 3G by the end of the year...
    - d3Xt3r 11mo ago
      I wonder if there's some sort of GSM hotspot device where it connects to 4G/5G networks, but creates a small localised 2G/3G cell for older phones. Kind of like how we have mobile hotspot devices, but instead of (or addition to) creating a WiF hotspot, they provide 2G/3G...
      - dotancohen 11mo ago
        I bet a Stingray could do that. Have any cop friends?
toastal 11mo ago
This will become increasingly important as Google has boiled the frog too fast while trying to force its new store policies + banning sideloading; however, all of the pieces are now in place for them to try again in a year or 2, which history shows us they will. It’s certainly time to start toying with Linux phones if you haven’t already. This year I picked up an Xperia 10 to flash Sailfish OS on—which has rough edges (many of the hardware issues should be fixed in the next release), but Android App support bridges some of the gaps in application support.
- 24t 11mo ago
  > sideloading It's called installing. Language matters and I see no reason to concede this point in Google's favour.
  - cbolton 11mo ago
    You can also install through the Play store. Sideloading is more specific.
    - makeitdouble 11mo ago
      Would you make the same distinction on a mac when installing Photoshop from the Adobe installer vs installing KeyNote from the MacStore ?
      - cbolton 11mo ago
        I'm not too familiar with macOS... How normal/expected is it now to install through the App Store? As mentioned in another comment, for a Linux distribution like Debian there are highly trusted official repositories, and I think using "sideloading" for other sources would make some sense.
        makeitdouble 11mo ago
        On macos I assume most apps are installed outside of the Store, straight from the developper's site. Which would make the Store a "sideloading" channel by that token ? On Linux you have the default package sources, but for instance adding third party sources will still integrate the same with the system, I also never heard someone call installing Go or Java "side loading", though you're getting an installer from the site you need to run on your own. Same way for building from source. IMHO "sideloading" would not apply to any system open enough, where adding stuff from multiple sources is expected from the start.
        cbolton 11mo ago
jojobas 11mo ago
It's a shame phones didn't get anything similar to BIOS back in a day. Imagine if every laptop manufacturer had not a couple of incompatible sensors, but a whole unique boot system only allowing you to boot a crippled version of Windows ME.
- mjg59 11mo ago
  There's a lot of UEFI in the phone ecosystem, it's not the BIOS later that's missing - it's the ACPI layer.
  - snuxoll 11mo ago
    Yeah, the requirement to build and provide device trees for most mobile devices is the huge issue. For all of the garbage we have gotten from buggy ass ACPI tables on assorted PC’s, it’s absolutely true that it solved a lot of headaches with hardware discovery/enumeration. It’s really too bad that ARM had adopted ACPI as part of their SystemReady certification. It does work, and not reinventing the wheel is always a wise where feasible, but I think we could absolutely push something better.
  - mschuster91 11mo ago
    I've never seen UEFI in any mainstream Android device. The problem is... in the x86 world, even the most modern systems around still ship with decades of garbage. INT 10h and VBE, every x86 system still speaks it - either directly in the card, or emulated in BIOS/UEFI compatibility layers, so even a basic "hello world" can get video output, 09h/16h gives you keyboard input, 13h gives you disk I/O, 14h a serial port. That means that at least the initial bringup for a second-stage bootloader is incredibly easy, less than 40 lines of assembler code [1]. And when you write a tiny operating system, as long as you're content with that basic foundation of 640x480 and text output, it will run on any x86 compatible PC or server. On anything ARM, that's outright impossible to do and that is a large part of the problem. ARM is power efficient, but it comes at a serious cost. The low level bringup will be handled by the board's ROM, similar to PC BIOS/EFI, but after control is passed to the OS it gets different - all the OS gets is the devicetree stating "here's the memory addresses and interfaces of the hardware in the system", but you still need to write drivers for each and every individual thing from the bottom up, there is no framework for even most basic hardware interactions. [1] https://gist.github.com/MyCatShoegazer/38dc3ee7db9627ff3a20ebdb8910f983#file-loader-asm https://gist.github.com/MyCatShoegazer/38dc3ee7db9627ff3a20e...
jimangel2001 11mo ago
I installed PmOS on my old Xiaomi redmi note 9 with KDE Plasma Desktop. It works remarkably well, with the exception of sound. I am using it as a full Linux PC when I am on the go with my large power bank and a full sized folding keyboard/track pad. For my use case it's beyond great, albeit the small screen and the aarch architecture I can develop small projects as if I was on my PC. My current phone OP13r doesn't is supported yet by PmOS, when someone does it Im gonna try to install it on one of the slots.
metalman 11mo ago
google/android/apple/microsft are fighting for there lives, as there is no reason for there continued existance all the important types of comunications can be hard coded into chips and operate free of any external OS, everything else is two way media, 95% of which can be handled on local networks what big tech is trying to build is something alien to human needs, false promises and enticements, faked up ideals bases on faked up images and outright lies served by monsterous AI data farms that look more and more like the set of "the matrix" the issue with that, is that it is essentialy empty and boring, demanding that the viewer suspends ANY judgement or discernment and further defend this completly impossible and artificial media creation as real. litteral zombies.
- wiseowise 11mo ago
  But have you thought about shareholder value?
- intrasight 11mo ago
  In a competitive market, companies are fighting for their lives. The companies you listed are fighting to put up barriers to competition and are succeeding to a great measure.
Scene_Cast2 11mo ago
My biggest worry is that it's harder and harder to find a phone with an unlockable bootloader.
- greentea23 11mo ago
  Lineageos maintains a list and you can filter for devices with official bootloader unlock https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/ https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/. Buy only these devices to signal to these companies that this matters. Noteably OnePlus 13 and Pixel 9a, both 2025 phones, can be unlocked.
  - pzo 11mo ago
    If someone want something also quite recent and cheaper in this supported list there is also motorola edge+ (2023) with good specs. I got myself refurbished with perfect condition for just 240usd.
nobody42 11mo ago
pmOS device compatibility matrix: https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices
- tetris11 11mo ago
  If anyone wants a table for the testing devices (which are arguably still quite stable!), here's a table I put together by scraping the site a few months ago: https://pastebin.com/Wq4fWyvj https://pastebin.com/Wq4fWyvj If anyone wants the code for scraping and reformatting, let me know.
ianso 11mo ago
I think this stuff is super important, simply because there is a ton of stuff we can't do using our phones today. Think mesh networking, resilient ad-hoc application clustering, non-Internet P2P, like Freifunk but everywhere. We shouldn't have to depend on Google or any of the big tech companies for anything except the hardware. That would offer much more freedom. There are also contexts where this kind of thing could also enable life-saving applications. And unlike todays Internet where a database query in Cloudflare or a DNS bug in es-east-1 can disrupt half the services we use, this kind of technology really could withstand major attacks on infrastructure hubs, like the Internet was originally designed to do.
- ysnp 11mo ago
  >Think mesh networking, resilient ad-hoc application clustering, non-Internet P2P, like Freifunk but everywhere. (if dumbed down) What's are the gaps in features and functionality between what you're describing and what might be achievable today (given enough software glue) with an SDR transceiver and something like Reticulum [1] on an Android?
  - ianso 11mo ago
    Very good question! SDR + something like Reticulum or Yggdrasil would definitely provide the infra or network fabric for the kind of thing I'm thinking of. However, a normal Android, e.g. a Pixel 7, can't to my knowledge be turned into a web server or a podman host for containers. (I know of people hosting websites on old Androids that are flashed or hacked). Given phones already have a WiFi/WLAN radio chip, it's a shame to need extra kit for connectivity. It's something that's been on my mind a lot recently and so you provoked me into writing down a series of scenarios in story format that illustrates what SHOULD be possible using current hardware, were it not, as dlcarrier says, locked down like a games console. Here you go: https://ianso.blogspot.com/2025/11/what-we-dont-have.html https://ianso.blogspot.com/2025/11/what-we-dont-have.html
- dlcarrier 11mo ago
  Twenty years ago, if you told me that by today we'd have smart phones with eight or more cores, each outperforming an average desktop computer of the time, with capacitive OLED touch screens, on a cellular network with hundreds of megabits of bandwidth, I'd find it believable, because that's where technology was headed at the time. If you said that they'd effectively all be running either a port of OS X or a Linux distribution with a non-GNU but open source userspace, I'd consider that a somewhat unexpected success of open-source software. I would not at all expect that it would be as locked down as video game console. The more time passes, the less I use my phone for, and the more likely I am to whip out my laptop to accomplish something, like it's 2005.
Joshua-Peter 11mo ago
[flagged]
erelong 11mo ago
have thought about trying this but was wondering how hard is it to unbrick your phone if you screw this up

290 points by joooscha 11mo ago

dotancohen 11mo ago

The wiki has instructions for the N900! Not everything works, but it appears to be a work in progress.

hexagonwin 11mo ago
For the N900, Maemo Leste <https://maemo-leste.github.io/ https://maemo-leste.github.io/> would be a good choice, if not even better.
- sschueller 11mo ago
  Nice, I still have my N900 but my provider here (Swisscom Switzerland) is killing 3G by the end of the year...
  - d3Xt3r 11mo ago
    I wonder if there's some sort of GSM hotspot device where it connects to 4G/5G networks, but creates a small localised 2G/3G cell for older phones. Kind of like how we have mobile hotspot devices, but instead of (or addition to) creating a WiF hotspot, they provide 2G/3G...
    - dotancohen 11mo ago
      I bet a Stingray could do that. Have any cop friends?

toastal 11mo ago

This will become increasingly important as Google has boiled the frog too fast while trying to force its new store policies + banning sideloading; however, all of the pieces are now in place for them to try again in a year or 2, which history shows us they will. It’s certainly time to start toying with Linux phones if you haven’t already. This year I picked up an Xperia 10 to flash Sailfish OS on—which has rough edges (many of the hardware issues should be fixed in the next release), but Android App support bridges some of the gaps in application support.

24t 11mo ago
> sideloading It's called installing. Language matters and I see no reason to concede this point in Google's favour.
- cbolton 11mo ago
  You can also install through the Play store. Sideloading is more specific.
  - makeitdouble 11mo ago
    Would you make the same distinction on a mac when installing Photoshop from the Adobe installer vs installing KeyNote from the MacStore ?
    - cbolton 11mo ago
      I'm not too familiar with macOS... How normal/expected is it now to install through the App Store? As mentioned in another comment, for a Linux distribution like Debian there are highly trusted official repositories, and I think using "sideloading" for other sources would make some sense.
      - makeitdouble 11mo ago
        On macos I assume most apps are installed outside of the Store, straight from the developper's site. Which would make the Store a "sideloading" channel by that token ? On Linux you have the default package sources, but for instance adding third party sources will still integrate the same with the system, I also never heard someone call installing Go or Java "side loading", though you're getting an installer from the site you need to run on your own. Same way for building from source. IMHO "sideloading" would not apply to any system open enough, where adding stuff from multiple sources is expected from the start.
        cbolton 11mo ago

jojobas 11mo ago

It's a shame phones didn't get anything similar to BIOS back in a day. Imagine if every laptop manufacturer had not a couple of incompatible sensors, but a whole unique boot system only allowing you to boot a crippled version of Windows ME.

mjg59 11mo ago
There's a lot of UEFI in the phone ecosystem, it's not the BIOS later that's missing - it's the ACPI layer.
- snuxoll 11mo ago
  Yeah, the requirement to build and provide device trees for most mobile devices is the huge issue. For all of the garbage we have gotten from buggy ass ACPI tables on assorted PC’s, it’s absolutely true that it solved a lot of headaches with hardware discovery/enumeration. It’s really too bad that ARM had adopted ACPI as part of their SystemReady certification. It does work, and not reinventing the wheel is always a wise where feasible, but I think we could absolutely push something better.
- mschuster91 11mo ago
  I've never seen UEFI in any mainstream Android device. The problem is... in the x86 world, even the most modern systems around still ship with decades of garbage. INT 10h and VBE, every x86 system still speaks it - either directly in the card, or emulated in BIOS/UEFI compatibility layers, so even a basic "hello world" can get video output, 09h/16h gives you keyboard input, 13h gives you disk I/O, 14h a serial port. That means that at least the initial bringup for a second-stage bootloader is incredibly easy, less than 40 lines of assembler code [1]. And when you write a tiny operating system, as long as you're content with that basic foundation of 640x480 and text output, it will run on any x86 compatible PC or server. On anything ARM, that's outright impossible to do and that is a large part of the problem. ARM is power efficient, but it comes at a serious cost. The low level bringup will be handled by the board's ROM, similar to PC BIOS/EFI, but after control is passed to the OS it gets different - all the OS gets is the devicetree stating "here's the memory addresses and interfaces of the hardware in the system", but you still need to write drivers for each and every individual thing from the bottom up, there is no framework for even most basic hardware interactions. [1] https://gist.github.com/MyCatShoegazer/38dc3ee7db9627ff3a20ebdb8910f983#file-loader-asm https://gist.github.com/MyCatShoegazer/38dc3ee7db9627ff3a20e...

jimangel2001 11mo ago

I installed PmOS on my old Xiaomi redmi note 9 with KDE Plasma Desktop. It works remarkably well, with the exception of sound. I am using it as a full Linux PC when I am on the go with my large power bank and a full sized folding keyboard/track pad. For my use case it's beyond great, albeit the small screen and the aarch architecture I can develop small projects as if I was on my PC. My current phone OP13r doesn't is supported yet by PmOS, when someone does it Im gonna try to install it on one of the slots.

metalman 11mo ago

google/android/apple/microsft are fighting for there lives, as there is no reason for there continued existance all the important types of comunications can be hard coded into chips and operate free of any external OS, everything else is two way media, 95% of which can be handled on local networks what big tech is trying to build is something alien to human needs, false promises and enticements, faked up ideals bases on faked up images and outright lies served by monsterous AI data farms that look more and more like the set of "the matrix" the issue with that, is that it is essentialy empty and boring, demanding that the viewer suspends ANY judgement or discernment and further defend this completly impossible and artificial media creation as real. litteral zombies.

wiseowise 11mo ago
But have you thought about shareholder value?
intrasight 11mo ago
In a competitive market, companies are fighting for their lives. The companies you listed are fighting to put up barriers to competition and are succeeding to a great measure.

Scene_Cast2 11mo ago

My biggest worry is that it's harder and harder to find a phone with an unlockable bootloader.

greentea23 11mo ago
Lineageos maintains a list and you can filter for devices with official bootloader unlock https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/ https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/. Buy only these devices to signal to these companies that this matters. Noteably OnePlus 13 and Pixel 9a, both 2025 phones, can be unlocked.
- pzo 11mo ago
  If someone want something also quite recent and cheaper in this supported list there is also motorola edge+ (2023) with good specs. I got myself refurbished with perfect condition for just 240usd.

nobody42 11mo ago

pmOS device compatibility matrix: https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices

tetris11 11mo ago
If anyone wants a table for the testing devices (which are arguably still quite stable!), here's a table I put together by scraping the site a few months ago: https://pastebin.com/Wq4fWyvj https://pastebin.com/Wq4fWyvj If anyone wants the code for scraping and reformatting, let me know.

ianso 11mo ago

I think this stuff is super important, simply because there is a ton of stuff we can't do using our phones today. Think mesh networking, resilient ad-hoc application clustering, non-Internet P2P, like Freifunk but everywhere. We shouldn't have to depend on Google or any of the big tech companies for anything except the hardware. That would offer much more freedom. There are also contexts where this kind of thing could also enable life-saving applications. And unlike todays Internet where a database query in Cloudflare or a DNS bug in es-east-1 can disrupt half the services we use, this kind of technology really could withstand major attacks on infrastructure hubs, like the Internet was originally designed to do.

ysnp 11mo ago
>Think mesh networking, resilient ad-hoc application clustering, non-Internet P2P, like Freifunk but everywhere. (if dumbed down) What's are the gaps in features and functionality between what you're describing and what might be achievable today (given enough software glue) with an SDR transceiver and something like Reticulum [1] on an Android?
- ianso 11mo ago
  Very good question! SDR + something like Reticulum or Yggdrasil would definitely provide the infra or network fabric for the kind of thing I'm thinking of. However, a normal Android, e.g. a Pixel 7, can't to my knowledge be turned into a web server or a podman host for containers. (I know of people hosting websites on old Androids that are flashed or hacked). Given phones already have a WiFi/WLAN radio chip, it's a shame to need extra kit for connectivity. It's something that's been on my mind a lot recently and so you provoked me into writing down a series of scenarios in story format that illustrates what SHOULD be possible using current hardware, were it not, as dlcarrier says, locked down like a games console. Here you go: https://ianso.blogspot.com/2025/11/what-we-dont-have.html https://ianso.blogspot.com/2025/11/what-we-dont-have.html
dlcarrier 11mo ago
Twenty years ago, if you told me that by today we'd have smart phones with eight or more cores, each outperforming an average desktop computer of the time, with capacitive OLED touch screens, on a cellular network with hundreds of megabits of bandwidth, I'd find it believable, because that's where technology was headed at the time. If you said that they'd effectively all be running either a port of OS X or a Linux distribution with a non-GNU but open source userspace, I'd consider that a somewhat unexpected success of open-source software. I would not at all expect that it would be as locked down as video game console. The more time passes, the less I use my phone for, and the more likely I am to whip out my laptop to accomplish something, like it's 2005.

Joshua-Peter 11mo ago

[flagged]

erelong 11mo ago

have thought about trying this but was wondering how hard is it to unbrick your phone if you screw this up