13 ms·
My stages of learning to be a socially normal person
- rogual 11mo agoI don't have much to add to this right now other than to say this is really fantastic writing. I don't normally enjoy "my journey" kind of blog posts, but this one feels full of valuable insights, and I'm grateful to the author for sharing. It's also just nice to read something written by a skilled writer.
- fgonzag 11mo agoBecause unlike the other my journey posts, this one is sharing acquired knowledge and framing it through his (in this instance relatable since it explains the reasons) experience. Other my journey posts are look at me with only enough subject matter to disguise it. This post is about sharing knowledge, the others are about sharing experiences.
- 0_____0 11mo agoI wish I had the drive to do as much work as the author has. Instead I will live more or less where I am now, stably in social mediocrity, perpetually somewhat impedance mismatched with the people around me.
- fragmede 11mo agoThe problem with accounts of life like the author is that it sums up a whole hell of a lot of time into a nice short Saturday morning read. In this case, it sounds like it spans multiple decades. It sounds like you feel socially awkward. You really don't think you can do something about that in thirty years? In November of 2055, you expect you'll be the same bag of awkward you are today? 1,500 weeks or so from now, you don't think you can leave the house or go somewhere multiplayer online to meet up with me people and make mistakes until there's a close enough impedance match that they signal (you) isn't too attenuated or overpowered? This weekend's not over yet, get out there!
- 0_____0 11mo agoThanks for the encouragement. I wrote my comment while a bit hungover from a dinner party :) In general I'm OK with how I interact with people. I think we're all a bit impedance mismatched. The author's experience of having instant intimacy I think is a result of what happens when you spend the time to become completely attuned to other people. He found drawbacks to that skill. What I really meant is that I don't know if I want that level of interpersonal skill. I'm actually kind of happy bumbling about socially, making jokes that don't quite land, alternating taking up too much space with not taking up enough. The older I get, the less I desire perfection and power in all domains. I look forward to being a bit of an oaf.
- jimbokun 11mo agoIf you are routinely getting invited to dinner parties and drinking and conversing with good friends, your social interaction level is probably just fine.
- harimau777 11mo agoThe problem as I see it is that, while I certainly could have that growth by 2055, by that point it wouldn't matter. E.g. if you want to increase your social ability in order to have a family or a satisfying job, in 30 years it will be much too late for that.
- marstall 11mo agoreally identify. especially with the early yearning to connect and not having the skills. Learned sooo much over the years by being brutally rejected and eventually taking stock of what happened and extracting a rule or two. but then, yeah, next phase, rules don't matter (except when they do) and change moment to moment anyway. funny to read this here on hacker news of all places, where I let my carefully managed, almost always inhibited, childhood nerd self fly free in the comments. OP has definitely gone beyond me in many ways, with his talk about embodiment, and being able to be so empathic that he has elicited tears of gratitude. Enviable.
- robotnikman 11mo agoI felt the same way when I was in University and High School. In fact I ended up focusing on it so much at the time that my grades really suffered, and I feel like I could have ended up at a better University and career if I had focused more on my grades and learning. Either way, I did learn my lesson, and I'm now much more comfortable with myself and not seeking validation or connection from others so much.
- jimbokun 11mo agoYou may have gotten better grades but doubt you would have been more successful professionally, emotionally, or romantically.
- fragmede 11mo ago> I was probably the most severely bullied kid at my school. > I was demonstrating my erudition Those two things might have been linked. I wasn't there, but I'm suspicious. Fortunately the author learns better by the end of the article, but it stuck out to me because LLMs have made people suspicious of five dollar words like delve so to use the word erudition in this day and age is a choice.
- stavros 11mo agoWell, in the timeline, this was after the author was bullied. Also, he says: > In essence, I became an example of obnoxious precocity, a heartfelt young wordcel. So it doesn't sound like disagrees with you either way.
- fragmede 11mo agoIt's all in the preamble before the later sections of learning and my implicit point was that my social awkwardness got better when I stopped trying to show off how smart I am. It still comes out occasionally, and I don't try to be condescending, so I do really appreciate my close friends when they give me feedback when I am. My other point though is that as people using AI to generate content take the time to tell ChatGPT that it sounds like ChatGPT and to rewrite it to not sound like that, that people are going to be suspicious of anything recondite that isn't in common parlance. But I'm a believer in xkcd 810, so what can I say.
- stavros 11mo agoI know this article wasn't written by an LLM because the writing isn't mediocre.
- hcta 11mo agoTrying to show off how smart one is is probably part of the motivation behind many interesting comments posted on here, and more generally, a big motivation behind a huge number of the useful things people do. Doing it in a non-obvious way requires additional ingenuity. The cumulative effect of people trying to show off how smart they are has undoubtedly greatly accelerated the development of our species.
- ZpJuUuNaQ5 11mo agoAppreciate the writing and the author's fortitude in achieving their goals. While I never had friends, neither online nor in person, I cannot identify with this at all - it reads like a strange, obsessive seeking of external validation which I have never felt myself. Maybe I am just disinterested in people in general.
- kepeko 11mo agoThat's interesting. People are really different. I had my own stages to being still not socially normal person. I always wanted friends, sometimes had some, sometimes felt lonely. In case you happen to read this, did you not have friends in childhood but didn't feel bad about it?
- boogieknite 11mo ago"hey call you when they need something Trees for the blunt, the g's for the front I found a way to get piece of mind for years And left the hell alone, turn a deaf ear to the cellular phone Send me a letter, or better, we could see each other in real life Just so you could feel me like a steel knife At least so you could see the white of they eyes Bright with surprise, once they finish spitting lies Associates, is your boys, your girls, ______s, _____s, homies Close, but really don't know me Mom, dad, comrade, peeps, brothers, sisters, duns, dunnies Some come around when they need some money Others make us laugh like the Sunday funnies Fam be around whether you paid or bummy You could either ignore this advice, or take it from me Be too nice and people take you for a dummy So nowadays he ain't so friendly" - Deep Friend Frenz DOOM i can sort of relate. ive been told by my family that i dont like people much. im also confident in conversation and social situations. i think the latter is true because i feel no pressure to perform and naturally seek novelty to entertain myself
- socalgal2 11mo agoIf you were actually disinterested in people there'd be no point in writing to them here on HN
- fsckboy 11mo ago>obsessive seeking of external validation which I have never felt myself if you've never felt it, why are you mentioning it? why are you so focused on it? A useful psychoanalytic rubric is "there is no negation in the unconscious mind". Negation is a conscious mind idea, the unconscious mind just thinks of things, it doesn't think of something and claim it's not thinking of it. so, rephrasing what you wrote in the unconscious sense, "obsessive seeking of external validation which I have felt myself": yes, you have identified something, identified with something, interesting, about other people and about yourself. If you are aware that you are not seeking external validation, but also aware when other people do, you have to ask yourself... if your complaint about this argument is along the line of "no fair, i can't escape from this!", you're getting the point.
- legerdemain 11mo agoI eat at Chinese restaurants where my waiter is a QR code. Please pour olive oil in my lap, hold my hands, and tell me I'm special.
- mierz00 11mo agoThat was a delightful read. The last part resonates with me, early on I realised that listening to people was the easy ticket to connection. But like the author, a lot of the time I was not emotionally available for that connection and I have definitely caused some pain and confusion.
- ChrisMarshallNY 11mo agoI’m “on the spectrum,” but I had no idea, until I was in my forties. I just assumed (as did most folks), that I was “eccentric” (or “weird,” for the not inconsiderable number of people that didn’t like me). Once I did find out, it wasn’t really a huge revelation, as I was already well on my way towards learning to compensate. I know that the popular outlook, is that folks use “neurodivergent” diagnoses to excuse (and not address) bad social behavior, but that certainly wasn’t the case for me. It was just another data point. If we’re jerks, then no one will cut us any slack; regardless of a diagnosis. It’s still incumbent upon us, to address the issue. In my case, I’ve spent my entire adult life in an organization that forces us to work intimately with others, seek out and interact with many types of people, and to look at ourselves, in a harsh, realistic manner. That naturally encouraged me to address my social issues, regardless of the causes. Eventually, it also forced me to find the cause, but by then, the cure was already under way.
- andrewstuart 11mo agoMust be exhausting to have to explicitly learn all that.
- manmal 11mo agoI don't know whether author is on the spectrum, but for many people on it, it feels exactly like this.
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- bbminner 11mo agoI have been trying to manage other people's feelings and reactions for as long as i can remember. That's a self-soothing fantasy of sorts. With this mindset, you are naturally drawn to people who need such emotional management - a realization that you can't actually manage other people's happiness was long and painful. These days I am not sure that getting people to open up by altering your presentation is a good idea. Maybe we should learn to accept that we have no insight into another and just observe them with patient curiousity? That we are fundamentally alone and isolated and the best you can hope for is a person who's values align with yours - and so you feel safe around them?
- Nimitz14 11mo agoI think you're bang on the money fwiw. But also worth mentioning that it's OK to ask rather than trying to predict and feeling that having to ask means failure
- bbminner 11mo agoBut the same applies to the person you are talking to - it is their job to reach out to you if they need help. It is not your job to prove anything to them by reaching out when (your heightened vigilance picks up that) something is off. I am never buying the story of "i did not reach out / i betrayed you / i treated you poorly, and you deserved this treatment, because you failed to know me well enough to know what i needed (even if i didn't know that myself)" ever again. There's no failure in asking. But there's no failure in not asking either - because you might be dealing with your own shit, as a responsible adult does. One school of phenomenology of empathy makes an interesting point that empathy is an aesthetic category, not a moral one - you don't really choose to feel it. But you can choose to show up for someone. You can choose to show up for yourself as well. I have been dancing lately, and i think it's helping a little. Our tango teacher says semi-jokingly to followers (usually women, although i find occasionally following quite fun as a man) "if you teach men that you will do everything yourself, they will learn that" - meaning that they should not anticipate a move - if it is not being communicated clearly, it is not your job to guess it. On the other hand, leader's job is to very clearly suggest a move with a gentle push or a shift in their pose, but not force it. Ideally, that's a fun exchange of clearly expressed and contextually relevant suggestions and responses.
- MarkusWandel 11mo agoIt took me decades to learn to be a socially normal-ish person. Some of us are just good at computers and not so good at people. But that was in the geekosphere - university, then a tech job. Working as a bartender/waiter is certainly jumping in at the deep end, and accelerates the process.
- futureshock 11mo agoI really love this piece! I relate to it but it also doesn’t describe me. I’m far more intuitive than this person, though still agree that insights have driven a leveling up of how I relate to others. They were different insights, sure but the model holds. Once my spouse and I worked for the same company and attended many of the same meetings. The opportunity to pick apart our impressions of the subtext really helped me to learn that I should listen to my gut, that everything I needed to know about how other people were feeling was already in my head and i just needed to stop doubting. Another time I watched a rather ugly and old person have amazing romantic success with a young beautiful person. How could it be? And I realized that authentic confidence is social gold. I had to let go of my insecurities because my flaws were irrelevant in the face of authentic, confident self acceptance. I think everyone has a different journey and different epiphanies and it is so enjoyable to hear these experiences put into words.
- SwtCyber 11mo agoIt's like we're all solving the same puzzle, just with different pieces
- quercusa 11mo agoThis is one heck of a hook: > I was one social notch above children who were so pitiable it would be rude to mock them.
- Dilettante_ 11mo agoHe's just like me, for real
- SirMaster 11mo agoWhy do we need to be normal anyway? Why can't we just be unique?
- BriggyDwiggs42 11mo agoI never got the sense the author was trying to push people or himself into a box, more that he wanted to be able to connect to others more easily.
- Dilettante_ 11mo agoThis to me reads as someone who has never been "the bad kind of unique". Not being normal carries very heavy practical repercussions in some cases. "Just be yourself" is only good advice for people whose 'self' is acceptable and well-functioning.
- harimau777 11mo agoBecause not being normal results in being lonely, rejected by society, and often unable to keep a decent job. After a lifetime of struggling just to achieve fairly pitiful social success, I would give a great deal to be able to be normal.
- Thossndjsj 11mo agoMost people from what I've seen don't want unique as much as they want somewhat famailiar. If it deviates too far away from that then they are repulsed, and I can give you an example right here. I'm going to commit suicide. I've known this for the last 15 years. It'll probably be another 10 years before I'll die, but I know my end is half laying down with a 1.5 inch nylon strap tied cinched on my neck and a tree trunk in the dead of night so that no one will be able to find me in time. The reason I haven't is because I'm taking of elderly relatives, but they are the only reason I'm still here. That's the real me. The one that looks forward to dying even though there doesn't seem to be any reason why I want to die. I wonder how many in this thread would be utterly horrified by this vs accepting of this.
- WolfeReader 11mo agoNeither horrified nor accepting. What you have is mental illness. A healthy brain does not decide to kill itself. Please get help and do NOT wait for your elderly relatives to pass before making the call.
- AuthAuth 11mo agoThis sounds like a ton of work to learn and by the end it sounds more like a curse than a super power. To be so above people in terms of social intelligence must be horrible. It sounds like the Author views interactions on a completely different level. I dont have any offensive social strategy so its hard for me to dictate making friends but passively I do quite well by just projecting an authentic version of myself.
- jimbokun 11mo agoBlessing and a curse combined. With great power, great responsibility, etc. etc. Like his wife bluntly telling him many women had crushes on him and it must be coming from something he was doing. He could have went different directions with that information. And chose the direction that was best for his marriage.
- crazygringo 11mo agoIt really depends on what you want to do with your life. If you want to do engineering, or play music, or be a professional chef, you don't need these skills. If you want to be in sales, or a working actor, or manage a high-end restaurant, or be a professional interviewer, then these skills become pretty important.
- Nathanba 11mo agoI've always hated it when people juggle me and when I notice that I'm getting played. "Normal" people seem to absorb this strategy subconsciously throughout their lives and train themselves to do it too because they notice that it works better. To someone who notices this consciously it seems psychotic because well of course it's always easier to cheat, lie and fake your way to an advantage. You should be choosing not to live this way on purpose. I don't think that the person in the article did it from a bad heart which usually makes all the difference but tons and tons of people do it purely for self gain with no regard for the people getting exploited. Here it was his job to do this and arguably it was for the other person's benefit too to get better service so it was not bad. But we should still be able to name it what it is. This tier of strategy is polluting non-work social environments too. The last thing we need is more people who are getting better at faking being interested or caring. I'm aware that if such people stop fake caring then they will stop caring altogether. Well good, stop gaming yourself to life advantages please that you shouldn't have. Of course it's harder to actually care about things compared to fake caring. It's harder to be an actually good person vs faking being good and it's probably far less rewarding for most to only be getting what they should be getting in life. Luckily most people are not that good at being fake because like you said, it still takes effort. But people who do it all their life no longer feel that effort and this is how you end up with lifelong fake people. In general we will never get people to stop faking and lying their way to advantages in life so what decent people are left with is to develop an even harder armor that fake people can't get through with these strategies. It's sad but that's what life seems to be: You have to find people who aren't just here play and beat you like you're a videogame or for a darker analogy play you like you are an asset and they are a CIA agent.
- ajkjk 11mo agowell they're not normal but they are getting to the place that "normal" people end up, I think. It seems to be the case that no amount of being in your head is a substitute for just not being in your head in the first place.
- jimbokun 11mo agoHe kind of goes from normal to super-normal, and has to deal with how to handle this outlier social competence responsibly.
- ajkjk 11mo agoI'd characterize the entire journey as "neurodivergent" but there's nothing wrong with that, and there are lots of other neurodivergent-ish people (regardless of whether you like that word for it, I just mean "outliers", the sort of people who have trouble with socializing in a way that most people seem to have an easy time with), and many of them could stand to benefit from figuring some of the same things out
- RealityVoid 11mo agoI think slapping neurodivergent on everything kind of dilutes the word. I had some social challenges growing up, probably still a weird cookie at times, but def would not consider myself neurodivergent, it just feels like a different league of difference to the norm.
- ajkjk 11mo agoi sorta agree but also that's basically just what the word has come to mean. agree that it's a catchall, but also, like, it's definitely not the case that everyone's social experiences are anything like the OPs'; theirs really is a slightly-autistic-coded category of experiences.
- throw4847285 11mo agoBut that's the entire point of the term neurodivergence. Rather than categorizing people into specific pathologies, you acknowledge that every spectrum of human behavior is just that: a spectrum. And that means that some people will be outliers on any given axis. For example, the author of this piece is clearly on the autism spectrum. Of course, everybody is on the autism spectrum, even people who show no symptoms (they are on the left hand side). This person is clearly functional, but far from what would be considered neurotypical. The point of neurodivergence is to better understand the various spectra that make up human personality without judgement. And by understand people who are outside the norm, we can better understand humanity as a whole.
- jimbokun 11mo agoThis Ted Talk from his wife is also very interesting: https://usefulfictions.substack.com/p/behold-my-ted-talk https://usefulfictions.substack.com/p/behold-my-ted-talk The topic is agency. Which is a word I hear often used by rarely defined or described in detail. She talks about agency as being the key to going from drug addict to CEO of a successful organization, and the specific habits that process involved.
- Aurornis 11mo agoI recognized her name when one of her blog posts was trending on HN yesterday (from the same submitter as this one, actually). For what it's worth: She has something of a history in the professional poker world of being a less than reliable narrator. To be fair, the fallout during her time in the poker world overlapped with her admitted drug addiction problem. However, from what I recall from that era I'd suggest taking some of her stories with a grain of salt. She is very good at storytelling and charming people, though. There is probably a lot of value in studying how she delivers messages, puts spin on the past, and charms audiences.
- mentat 11mo agoThe idea that most people who are doing professional public speaking are reliable narrators is a bit quaint. There is a lot of room for framing that you have to allow for story telling. If you think that all story telling is about reliable narration, you're going to have a tough time being successful at it or interacting with others who are.
- lll-o-lll 11mo agoWow, I can’t get past the first couple of paragraphs. > I’ve tried so hard to learn how to connect with people. It’s all I ever wanted, for so long. Are there really people like this? HN is probably the wrong place to ask this question, but this is so far outside of my bubble that I just cannot relate. Some people feel like this, for real?
- RealityVoid 11mo agoYes? I mean...why is it so hard to imagine people having difficulties with things you find easy or natural?
- throitallaway 11mo agoMaybe social connection doesn't come easy to them and they don't care about it much.
- RealityVoid 11mo agoOk, sure. But is the disbelief there are other people unlike him out there warranted?
- lll-o-lll 11mo agoI just. Don’t care? I mean, I want to connect to a few people. I’m human, I love, I feel. I don’t care about connection with most of the people I would interact with.
- lazide 11mo agoDo you mean wanting to connect with people? Or not being able to connect with most people?
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- kelseyfrog 11mo agoI'm curious what your bubble is. The peice is relatable to me at least. A great many of the lessons were something that I also arrived at through deliberate practice. Though the paths we both took are radically different, the main ideas are universal and the resulting destinations are similar. I can't list all of the times when someone has shared that they didn't mean to "share all that" because it happens often enough that it's become countless. As mentioned elsewhere, it illuminates the spectrum of interpersonal and social intelligence where it becomes impossible to not notice how some people repeatedly, and perhaps even compulsively are their own impediment to personal connection.
- wcfrobert 11mo ago> some people communicate in order to exchange facts, and some communicate in order to find connection. I love this quote. Excellent and very relatable piece. Social skills can be acquired through practice. But being an introvert, I've specifically picked my profession so that I can focus on ideas over people. Tinkering and solving problems excited me, whereas staying in touch with friends, noticing social dynamics, networking, reading people, being good at remembering everyone's birthday, etc felt tiring to me and was less appealing. I'm at a place in my career where I'm managing more and doing less. It's a weird transition because I've spend a decade acquiring technical skill, only to discover soft skills are equally if not more important (perhaps increasingly so with AGI) .
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- ainiriand 11mo agoUnfortunately I communicating ti exchange facts. I have a lot of trouble with people and I straining to get better.
- roughly 11mo agoHonestly I think lesson 7 is nobody's normal. All the things the author's noted about interacting with other people - see how weird and rare it was and how long it took to recognize it? See how often it's on your plate to be the one to go zen mode to figure out how to dance with someone? The author isn't normal, they're now skilled. Before, they weren't normal, because they noticed they weren't skilled. Most people don't.
- NumberCruncher 11mo ago> Honestly I think lesson 7 is nobody's normal. There are only two types of ppl: "the wrong kind of crazy" and "the right kind of crazy". Why would I want to connect with the wrong type of crazy? Ok, I don't work as a waiter.
- empressplay 11mo agoI was diagnosed short-bus autistic in elementary school twice. But I also have Williams Syndrome, which gave me empathy and a fondness for people and their stories. So while I was bullied mercilessly I also had friends. Deep, lifelong friends I still have today.
- RealityVoid 11mo agoWow, this is something else. Reading about Williams Sindrome is a bit shocking, you sound like such sweet people, but it seems easily preyed upon. I'm curious how you managed the difficult parts, did you share your experience anywhere in the internet? Excuse my curiosity, but I read about it a while ago and found it fascinating. Hope I don't become off rude.
- Aurornis 11mo agoThis post wasn't what I was expecting from the "socially normal" title. While there is a lot of self-reflection and growth in this piece, a lot of the points felt more like learning how to charm, manipulate, and game social interactions. Look at the first two subheadings: > 1: Connecting with people is about being a dazzling person > 2: Connecting with people is about playing their game The post felt like a rollercoaster between using tricks to charm and manipulate, and periods of genuinely trying to learn how to be friends with people. I don't want to disparage the author as this is a personal journey piece and I appreciate them sharing it. However this did leave me slightly uneasy, almost calling back to earlier days of the internet when advice about "social skills" often meant reductively thinking about other people, assuming you can mind-read them to deconstruct their mindset (the section about identifying people who feel underpraised, insecure, nervous,) and then leverage that to charm them (referred to as "dancing to the music" in this post). Maybe the takeaway I'd try to give is to read this as an interesting peek into someone's mind, but not necessarily great advice for anyone else's situation or a healthy way to view relationships.
- testing22321 11mo agoThe book is called “how to win friends and influence people”, after all.
- Aurornis 11mo agoI read that book because it was on so many generic book recommendations lists. It was less sleazy than I expected from the title. It actually had a lot of points about being genuine, being a good listener, showing respect to other people's opinions, admitting when you're wrong, being sincere, and so on. Decent advice, really. A side benefit of reading it is you learn how to spot when other people are insincerely trying to use the tricks in the book against you. Once you see it, it's hard not to miss.
- dijit 11mo agoInteresting, when I was reading it I got a real sociopathic vibe from many of the points and especially how the author was talking about them. If I take a helicopter view of the main themes they make sense, but I will admit feeling a little sleazy by reading the book. Reading is subjective however, so I’m glad it didn’t make you feel this way.
- donatj 11mo ago> The other day, someone told me, “I can’t imagine you ever being awkward with people.” I was telling my therapist of several years recently about being uncomfortable with the number of new people I've had to meet recently. He seemed surprised that I wasn't excited by it all and said something along the lines of "You seem like a very social person, that seems out of character." It struck me… am I really that good at masking that my therapist didn't realize I am absolutely terrified in near all social situations? I have zero idea how to make small talk with people I haven't known for years. Working from home since COVID has made my social skills so much worse because I don't get the practice.
- RangerScience 11mo agoConsider that context heavily impacts how you show up, and in a therapy context, you’re likely to be a lot more relaxed. So I’d bet it’s not that you’re masking that terror when you’re with your therapist, but that it isn’t present.
- em-bee 11mo agoi think part of the reason is that our own discomfort feels much stronger than it actually shows to others. the discomfort is inside us, and the people we interact with don't notice because for them it is not a concept. only if you and i meet one or both of us might realize the others discomfort. it's kind of like farting in public. you know you did, and you think everyone noticed, but in reality most didn't
- acuozzo 11mo ago> I have zero idea how to make small talk with people I haven't known for years. Forget small talk. Listen-- really listen --and engage with open ears. When it's your turn to talk, offer up an anecdote in reply if it's on topic or take the opportunity to pivot to a related topic you're passionate about. If you do the latter: do. not. info-dump. Give them a chance to play the game I just described to you from their side. Need a cold opener? Get the party going with something you anticipate the majority of the people there would remember. -- You: "Hey, does anybody remember the Blizzard of '96?" Them: "Yeah! I remember they closed down all of Route 9!" You: "Hell yeah they did. My family pulled me down the highway on a snow tube. I've gone tubing every year since. Any tubers here?" Them: "No, but I love snowboarding." You: "Nice. I was briefly obsessed with snowboarding after playing 1080 on the N64, but I was always too chicken-shit to try it. Where do you go snowboarding?" Them: "Vermont. Where do you go tubing?" You: "I used to do it over near that big hill by the library. Ever see that?" -- Arm yourself with personal stories to make situations like this easier. People would rather interact with the guy always telling stories than the visibly-uncomfortable one sitting in the corner.
- awesome_dude 11mo agoRetitle the blog article to "I'm Autistic and this is how I learned to mask"
- w_for_wumbo 11mo agoI recognize all of these steps, having gone through flavours of them myself. The root for me, was that I learned at a young age that to feel safe, I needed to cater to what others wanted for me. Never learning to ask myself, what I wanted. It might be the author's next step, is reconnecting with his inner-desire and finding out what he wants from the world, instead of how he wants to appear in the world.
- kylehotchkiss 11mo ago"Socially normal" these days seems to be more like "spends most time at home, scopes out gym on regular basis for potential likeminded people, struggles to ask other people about themselves, flakes if given a rare invite to something"
- hypeatei 11mo agoThe bit about him spilling olive oil onto someone's dress then playing it off with a flirtatious joke seems very strange to me. Maybe it's just my upbringing but trying to pull off a joke like that in a tense situation seems very risky. I would be worried about coming off unserious, indifferent, and sleazy while also stoking an even angrier reaction from the person.
- SeanAnderson 11mo agoI think it was much more about anchoring the other person's response as quickly as possible and less about what was specifically being said. Sort of like speaking first in a negotiation to anchor your salary expectations. Even if the rate you propose is outlandish - doing so shifts the expected response curve in a way that can be useful.
- svat 11mo agoYou're right, but consider: • Of course it's very strange; that's why he wrote about it — the point is to convey what is not obvious. • Of course it's risky, but that's the point of much of the author's journey of social ease, at least the initial stages up to that point. If you're willing to take the risk of coming off <…>, or of an angry reaction, you open yourself up to a wider range of experiences / social interactions. Probably much of the interaction was non-verbal and even the author's paragraph cannot capture exactly what went on. Not everyone needs to take such risks of course, but the author consciously chose to “install” social skill, and has shared their experience.
- bolangi 11mo agoBritney Spears did it in the music video for Toxic.
- agos 11mo agoearly 2000s Britney Spears could get away with a lot of things
- nrhrjrjrjtntbt 11mo agoThe laye stages sound like psychopathy. The whole thing sounds on the one hand very useful and great for shy people but also very one dimensional. Did he make any friends?
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- opwieurposiu 11mo agoOne hazard of being a programmer is that sitting alone in a room alone with a computer for 10 years can turn you into a weird dude. Lately I have taken steps to re-learn how to be social. I am doing a lot of social dances, like Salsa, Swing, Bachata. I think partner dance is good training for body language. Also good training for presence, as when you really start dancing, you stop thinking; conversely when are thinking too much you will stiffen up and choke. There are a surprising number of PHDs and other very cerebral people in my local dance scene. One thing I have learned is that being good at dancing and being fun to dance with are orthogonal. You can be technically quite bad and people will still want to dance with you if you have good eye contact, smile, laugh at your mistakes, tell little jokes, complements, etc. Conversely there are some people that are really technically good but not that much fun to dance with because they grimace and look away and don't match your energy. Of course the best is when you find a partner that is both fun and technically good, and this is what I ascribe to become. The downside of dances is that I don't get a lot of practice at talking, I guess this is something you could learn to do at bars but I don't drink and so have not found really good place to practice a lot of talking. I try to get the guys from my jujitsu gym to come dance, these are big bad dudes who could really mess you up in fight, but they are all scared to dance with the girls. You will be scared your first few times for sure. Personally, I tend to be nervous in direct proportion to the beauty of my partner, which can be a problem because women that dance tend to be above average in that respect. Most dances have a 1 hour lesson at the beginning and then social dance after. The lesson part is easy, you just follow the instructions and the teacher will have you rotate partners so you get to meet most of the girls. I tell my guy friends, just come for the lesson part and then if you get too nervous you can sneak out early.
- slig 11mo ago+1. Ballroom dancing changed my life. Started small and two years in I was doing classes four times a week. I was in my early 30s and I could go out dance basically any day of the week except Monday and Tuesday.
- 1718627440 11mo ago> You can be technically quite bad and people will still want to dance with you if you have good eye contact, Yes. Your ability to do so largely depends on the dance. Good luck dancing Viennese Waltz, when you both try to look somewhere else than to your left. For other dances like Quickstep, it is only important, that the woman looks to the left, the man isn't all that important. Then there are dances, where it doesn't matter, so you might as well look at your partner.
- chis 11mo agoIncredible wisdom here. I can only speculate that the author is right about the later stages since I'm nowhere close to that sort of thing. Overall this piece reminds me of reading writeups from pickup artists who sort of ascended beyond the game, like they practiced so many social skills that they can see through every situation and lose interest in it all.
- foo-bar-bat 11mo agoPlease go to a therapist.
- mindwok 11mo agoThere's a lot of wisdom in this post and it resonates with my experience, great write up OP. I'd add one thing though: OP's ability to observe and imitate these kinds of social dynamics he was seeing suggests he's already coming from a solid foundation of EQ and also feeling secure enough to try on these different personas. Often there's a lot of work to be done to even get to that place!
- SeanAnderson 11mo agoThe irony of this piece being enjoyable to read and feeling very relatable isn't lost upon me :) It's fascinating to think about how much goes on inside each person's mind! One thing this article reminded me of is a conversation I had with an old roommate of mine. I always considered her an absolute sorceress when it came to dealing with people. Anyway, I forget how her and I got onto the conversation, but she asked me, "Before you say something to someone - do you ever play out the conversation in your mind?" and, of course, I said, "Yeah. I'll practice what I'm going to say and think a bit about how it'll land." and she countered with, "Do you ever take it one step further? By responding to yourself as if you were the person you're speaking to and then formulating your response to their anticipated response?" And my answer was an emphatic, "Fuck no. Are you crazy? Do you do that in real-time mid-conversation??" Of course, my roommate's approach wasn't something she used all the time, but the entire notion was foreign to me because the number of branching outcomes seemed large enough as to not be valuable to explore. I'm not psychic - why bother trying to formulate a response to a response not yet verbalized? And yet, if it were low enough effort and I had good enough confidence in the outcome, I could completely see the value in anticipating responses and trying to approximate the ideal N+1 response. It shocked me that someone I considered naturally talented in this space had also become comfortable taking on a mental exercise that I'd entirely written off as too effortful. FWIW, I still don't follow her approach and am reasonably happy with my conversational skills, but the revelation really made me take a step back and consider how much potential depth there is in areas I considered shallow.
- porjo 11mo agoRelated: "just be yourself" is horrible advice, on its own, to give a young person. It must be accompanied by an understanding that there is a social game to learn to play, and that "being yourself" is not always compatible with playing the game well.
- hexbin010 11mo agoRight with you there! All this discourse about 'being you', be anyone you want to be, 'you do you' etc – christ, no! Not unless you understand the downsides to all of that. And they aren't trivial. People should not dish out that advice so carelessly and wantenly.
- ajju 11mo agoThis was an interesting and thought provoking read. I appreciate the author's openness in sharing all that they did.
- legerdemain 11mo agoThe weird vibe people are picking up from this essay is because half the phases are about customer service. As in, the author was working as a waiter or a coach at the time. A waiter's job is to keep your butt in the seat, get you to order some stuff, and then leave a tip. The waiter may or may not give a shit about you as a person, but it's secondary to their job. That simulation is the creepy vibe. I've probably never eaten at the kinds of stratospherically high-end restaurants the author writes about. I've eaten at restaurants with Michelin stars. I've never had a waiter flirt with me, daydream with me, or offer ad hoc therapy. And if I ever do, I suspect I might find the charade off-putting.
- mettamage 11mo agoWell, he'd have adapted to your vibe anyway as he wrote about learning that.
- shevy-java 11mo agoI try the other way around: I am fine. It is everyone ELSE who is insane! I learned this from the old movie called The Shining, by the way.
- tibbar 11mo agoThis resonates. I spent many years going hard at `5: Connection is about projecting love and acceptance`. I focused on providing unconditional acceptance to everyone I met, inviting them to share their burdens and listening empathetically and supportively. People often left our conversations thanking me for the "therapy session." And in many ways I think this was a positive energy to bring to the world! But eventually I realized that, deep down, I was doing this out of anxiety. I wanted to be accepted and this was a crutch I was using to achieve that. In fact, I was scared of not providing this level of support, because what if I was too aloof and the other person got mad at me? And since people often liked this quality about me, what would I become without it? Now I mostly focus on ... relaxing. There are times where intense-therapy-like energy will be useful, and I can provide that if I want. But most of the time it's just not necessary. Unlike the author, I don't necessarily have the ability, or practice, to skillfully provide whatever the person in front of me actually wants, but that's ok too. It's ok to just be calm.
- boricj 11mo ago> And in many ways I think this was a positive energy to bring to the world! Or in other words, becoming the landfill of negative energy of the world. As someone who used to be that person for over a decade, having people endlessly confiding their relationship/health/mental/work/legal/family/gender issues will over time completely wreck your sanity. Because when you're that someone, people will not just tell you the light stuff, but also some really heavyweight and/or deeply fucked up things.
- tibbar 11mo agoOh, certainly. And if you have any resources besides attention - money, or social capital, for instance - people will happily take those too. It's not that they are wrong to ask, but the need is truly infinite, and no one will create guardrails for you except yourself.
- 65 11mo agoThe author appears to have a very large ego. Most "weird" people I know fall into the same trap of desperately trying to be something... to be interesting or dazzling or charming, while forgetting that they're talking to another person. Connection is being interested in what someone has to say. Not in being "interesting" or playing some kind of game. Ask questions, share similar experiences.
- labrador 11mo agoI've met his kind of waiter and I definitely don't like it except if there are kids present or I'm at Disneyland.
- shitter 11mo agoI'm a naturally socially awkward person, due partly to personality and partly to social anxiety disorder. I don't think I have the social intelligence/agility to pull off half of these maneuvers. Just reading about the author playing different characters with tables and imagining myself in that position made me want to throw up, I'd fuck it up so badly.
- rester324 11mo agoDoes this person have some kind of mental issue? I am seriosuly asking this, not mocking him. Because by reading through this post it stands out to me that he doesn't mention or highlights empathy. And that's where his problem stems from
- voidhorse 11mo agoPrecisely. And it's quite concerning that several people think this is a good exemplar to follow.
- duskdozer 11mo agoCheck out some of the other posts there too. There's a certain grandiosity about the writing that makes it feel like the author isn't actually past their own 'Stage 1'. Coupled with the ingratiating comments on each post, something's definitely setting off 'cult leader' alarms to me.
- mettamage 11mo agoProbably high functioning autism. They go through a process like this, and is in part why they are high functioning in the first place because they solve their problems with their intellect and train whatever else is necessary. Though, research shows that autistic people among themselves do have empathy. So it’s not as if they don’t but it’s because they tend to communicate differently. It’s called the double empathy problem, if I recall correctly.
- Yizahi 11mo agoAt a guess, he does have empathy. He didn't know how to get that empathy across, to the other person, and these are the stages he went through in learning how to do it. You see, the intent and the execution can be completely or partially divorced in some people. I can truly empathize the other person, the beginning of the process is there, but I wouldn't know the right words, tone or gestures hot to proceed with my empathy. And then it is fifty/fifty, maybe a person would decide to ignore my lack of execution and will start deep dialog on their own and then my empathy can allow me to honestly respond and continue it. Or maybe they will decide not to do it and the deep dialog wouldn't happen in the first place. Not every closed-in and awkward person is lacking empathy.
- jancsika 11mo agoThat initial fixation on "position in the [social] hierarchy" in #1 can counterintuitively become self-defeating. Many people look at tricks of "climbing the social ladder" as potential signs of narcissism and instinctively steer clear. Unfortunately, that scoops up a lot of people like the author who just desperately wanted to break through an awkward adolescence! Also counterintuitively, just giving up on that goal often leads to much more fruitful and lasting friendships. "Hi, I'm author. I'm abrasive and abrupt, excitable and sensitive. Interacting with me could be exhausting. Would you like to try? Please say yes or no." Seriously, HN: if you saw one guy saying that to people, and another playing a ukelele at you as he "tells dramatics stories" about his life, which one would you choose to interact with?
- skeeter2020 11mo agoThis reads like we asked the AI to explain how it tried to manipulate and fake being "a socially normal person". It feels like it's carved out of wood.
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- Brajeshwar 11mo agoThere is the ever popular book, “How to Win Friends and Influence People.” I like it in ways that it helps you reflect on your own lifestyle and interactions with people. Of course, one should build up their own ways of living, nonetheless, I like the book and often re-read it. https://brajeshwar.com/2016/how-to-win-friends-and-influence-people/ https://brajeshwar.com/2016/how-to-win-friends-and-influence...
- epolanski 11mo agoAuthor's problem is that he tries too hard, which is off putting. The way to connect with people is to genuinely care about them and listen. The world is full of the oddest people who have normal relations because they simply care. The author seems to show very little empathy or care towards other human beings, in fact the entirety of the article sounds like connecting is all about himself. Me, me and me. How people perceive me, how do they like me. He never ever shows genuine interest into connection, in the the end comes off as manipulative.
- hekkle 11mo agoI'm glad it wasn't just me who noticed this. It seems like the author doesn't care at all about other people; only about how to manipulate people into liking them. Gives real narcissist vibes.
- thrwwXZTYE 11mo agoNarcissism is a spectrum; everybody's a little narcissistic, and it changes over time. All kids are VERY narcissistic early on, most grow out of it as they experience unconditional love from their parents and are allowed to be their authentic selves in various social contexts. For various reasons - some kids don't. Bullying can certainly contribute. So they develop maladaptive strategies (which can look like the first few "stages" in this article) and have to undo the damage later in life (which can look like the later "stages" from the article) to have a chance to experience real human connection. I think the article can be very beneficial for people who struggle with this, even if it doesn't explicitly mention what the technical name of the struggle is (and BTW it does not have to be NPD - there might be other reasons for people to have similar problems). Maybe even BECAUSE it doesn't mention narcissism (cause narcissism is currently villified on the social media as "they are actual demons that cannot be saved" - so people are very wary of identifying with it, which makes it less likely they will work on themselves). BTW I'm very disappointed in the current fad on social media of villifying one mental health issue after another only to then come to realize "oh wait, they're actually people not monsters". I've seen it with BPD, now it's the NPD turn. It's usually done for ugly reasons, too (somebody hurt by a person with $mental_health_problem search for validation, so influencers jump in with feel-good validation that portrays the other side as demons).
- sandspar 11mo agoHaving social power is like owning a gun. Yes it's nice to have it and not use it. But there's often a temptation to use it. And if you use it incorrectly then someone can get hurt. You spend years honing your skill with a weapon and then you stop using it. The hard part is feeling like your weapon isn't being used. But you need to accept that disuse can be good. Otherwise you end up hurting people. Basically, don't treat people like toys. The author's next step will probably be to find places where he can go at full speed. Perhaps grief counseling, the clergy, hospice visits, or something along those lines.
- kwoff 11mo ago11 em dashes
- voidhorse 11mo agoYou want to know why "social connection" is difficult? Because actually social connection is not a generalize abstraction you get good at. I see this increasingly in contemporary society. People increasingly tackle certain aspects of their life as generalized problems to solve. They want to "get better at social connection" or "be more athletic" or "be more productive". None of these things are ends in themselves. This is a tendency toward egocentrism and needless abstraction that plagues a lot of people. In reality, life consists of concrete things. We can only become more productive once we have an actual goal in mind. Talking about productivity in the abstract is meaningless. We cannot determine our social connections in advance. We have or desire certain or more friends, we want to improve certain relationships. By starting from such an abstract place as "wanting to connect" or "being socially normal" you are basically doomed from the start. Connect with who? What is normal? These are not generalized problems to solve, they are rather determined by others. Viewing them this way stinks of main character syndrome—you don't actually care about or value other people, you view all of life through the lens of yourself and see all possible engagements as little more than reflections on your own personal player "stats". Yearning to "connect" with "people" is a completely meaningless and empty desire. The atomization of individuals and hyperindividualism caused this. Social anxieties and struggles to learn how to properly socialize arise the more isolated we become, and the more distant and rare our interactions with others become. People raised in highly group-oriented and community focused environments don't have these issues to nearly the same degree, for obvious reasons—they learn how to actually care about other people, rather than view life as nothing more than "my personal journey" or as a challenge for nothing other than self-oriented improvement or self enlightenment.
- DeathArrow 11mo agoTo me this article seems more like a long story of self administered therapy than a story of connecting with people.
- petesergeant 11mo agoBy far the most important advice in here — which isn’t given explicitly — is set yourself up to meet a lot of new people, because that’s how you learn. I worked in a pub a few nights a week, then I worked in a coaching org, then a bunch of new companies, then met lots of new people via the digital nomad community. You’ll get a little better with a bit of time, and with each new human. Also stay the fuck off IRC.
- fifticon 11mo agointernet relay chat? what do you mean?
- Razengan 11mo agoPeople are like AI and everybody has their own prompt. Including the prompts you tell yourself :)
- DeathArrow 11mo agoMaybe I am cynical or a jerk but I don't like most people. A few people I genuinely dislike, most people I am not interested in and a few people I like. I don't feel the need to build rapport or have close relations with all people. Either we genuinely click or we don't and it's fine for me anyway. I trust myself enough and I don't crave the approval of others, I don't crave affection. That being said, for work, in professional circles, with some aquitances, etc. I need to build good rapport and build trust fast, to the point that we build a good relation but not to the point we are friends. And it seems quite easy: be a good listener, echo their opinions, voice their unspoken concerns, summarize their opinions, be appreciative, repeat some key words from what they are saying, be appreciative, don't be judgemental, be genuinely friendly, tell jokes, look them in the eyes, smile, mind your body language and a few others. When coming in a new workplace, there are people who still didn't integrate well or get along with other people well, even if they work ed there for a few years. There are people that need years to build a relationship with others. But for me, in a few months more people see me like I worked there since ages. I just signal to people that their ideas are mine, too, that we are very much alike. People are set up to trust other people because that is the easiest way and takes the least effort. If you help them trust you and like you, they will.
- mettamage 11mo agoI don't think I looked at social interaction like that. But having had a whole journey of my own, I can really appreciate this blog post and merely by reading it, I felt like I've learned a thing or two. Specifically #5, I can see that. I'm #3 naturally, always have been. #4 gets practiced within me, the more I meditate. I owe my HN username to it :)
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- PeterStuer 11mo agoThis post gave me extreme psychopathy vibes, a person lacking genuine empathy, but employing utilitarian use of unconscientious, calculated, manipulative, superficial charm to feed one's narcissism and status.
- moffkalast 11mo ago> The other day, someone told me, “I can’t imagine you ever being awkward with people.” And I thought, oh God, yes, say it to me again, again, put it in my veins. Tell me I’m a natural performer. There are no sweeter words. > Because of course the absolute opposite is true. Average LLM conversation.
- d4rkn0d3z 11mo ago"Normal" is what people are until you get to know them. I like genuine wierdos and freaks.
- SwtCyber 11mo agoAccepting that connection is optional, not compulsory feels like the true sign of arrival. Not needing it to prove anything, not using it to fill a void, just being able to be, with or without it
- Nevermark 11mo agoFor more than half my life I couldn't do small talk. It made zero sense to me. Why talk and laugh about the same things over and over - are people really that boring? That dumb? Then it hit me. That ancient sound of two modems pushing static noise at each other, adjusting, until they identified their common frequencies. Now I strike up low stake conversations with anyone and everyone. It adds interest to life, and it is a lot easier to make connections. For me this was a profound life changing epiphany explosion.
- indigoabstract 11mo agoInteresting read about his outlook & experiences, but something about it still feels off, even at his latest (6th) stage. I guess it reminds me of the "pick up artist" approach to relationships, turning them into a game and trying to win it, keeping "the score".
- ArtificeAccount 11mo agoThis may only be tangentially related, but a good piece of advice I heard once was "Don't try to be cool (ie. impressive), try to be nice." I think it goes a long way in treating people properly.
- benbristow 11mo agoIf you're writing Substack articles and posting them on HN about how you're socially normal... Well, it speaks for itself.
- alexpotato 11mo agoI liked this post for three reasons: 1. Smart person faces problem, observes what's going on, thinks about it and finds solution I mention this b/c a lot of folks feel like "I'm me and I know something is wrong in what I'm doing but I don't know what" and stop there. But a lot of life is just learning new skills. That can be from books, videos, friends, or just opening your eyes and seeing what other people are doing and then modeling that behavior. 2. The pieces you need are already in you I used to be TERRIBLE at dating. e.g. I would go on dates with smart, funny and attractive women (mostly met online). The date would start out great and then something would happen halfway through and I could tell the energy went away. It go so bad that I almost wanted friends to sit near me and then point out what I was doing wrong. After reading some dating books, I realized what it was: There were a LOT of women in my extended family (mostly female cousins, strong personality outgoing aunts etc). I though "dating" == "hanging out with women like my family". The books pointed out that "dating" is has a large component of "playful teasing, being cocky funny". I already knew how to do that but didn't realize it applied to dating! 3. Work with what you have Some other commenters have pointed out that some of what he mentions is "being fake" or "being someone else" I make this analogy: - You are a certain height - That is tough to change - BUT you can work out, get a haircut, get dental work etc - aka there are MANY small things you can do to improve your physical appearance even if you can't change your height. The same is true of personality: you have a core set of values and beliefs. That being said, you choose which stories you tell, how you tell them, when to let the other person speak instead of you speaking for longer etc.
- bmn__ 11mo agoSpot the blue pill propaganda.
- hasbot 11mo agoI skimmed the article and one of the things that occurred to me is that it was lucky that they worked as a busboy for a bit. Lucky in the sense that there was plenty of opportunity to try various social approaches on the many people they encountered each day. Most of us only interact with a few people in total each week and don't get any encounter resets. I remember a few years ago living in a small town and dreading being invited to the rare party. I'd met everyone, had a brief encounter, and neither they nor I had any desire to further the interaction.
- rsp1984 11mo agoWhile I have no issues believing that the outlined strategies are effective, and I sincerely congratulate the author on his journey, there is a flip side to engineering "social normalcy" that IMO the author is missing: Any reasonably "normal" person (anyone that's not severely autistic) will find there are people that we effortlessly connect with and many others we don't. It's the natural state. Now in any sufficiently intelligent and psychologically OK person the act of eliciting / pushing emotional connection with people from the latter group (where there's no natural connection) should trigger a certain amount of internal disgust. The fact that it doesn't seem to be the case with the author would indicate that he's more of an outlier. Based on his writing he does seem intelligent and psychologically OK, so there might be other factors at play. My point is that his journey might not be transferable 1:1.
- andai 11mo agoThe author learned that the main value of communication is relational, nor informational. It's all about the vibes. I am still getting the hang of that one. But baby steps :)
- istjohn 11mo agoIf you're a tech worker who would like to improve your social skills or overcome mild to moderate social anxiety, I can whole-heartedly recommend working as a server nights and weekends for a few months. As a server, you will always have a clear purpose guiding each interaction, eliminating the sometimes intimidating open-endedness of more casual settings. But you'll be constantly talking to people, and you'll meet all kinds. You'll also have many opportunities to have structured and unstructured interactions with coworkers. It's a fantastic way to get in lots of reps in a short time.
- NoSalt 11mo agoUgh ... people are the worst! Why would you want to connect with them???
- stronglikedan 11mo agoBecause people are also different and , surprise, want different things in life. Not everyone is happy being alone (not lonely) like me, and presumably you too.
- dgreensp 11mo agoThis is some of the best writing I've read in a while, and truly fascinating.
- stevenalowe 11mo agoThis feels like instructions for masking
- fallingfrog 11mo agoThe drummer in my band was the type of person who become anybody's friend in a few minutes. I watched him and gleaned this advice: When you meet someone, your goal should be to get a little look into their inner world. Find out what they care about. And second, be genuinely interested but don't judge. It shouldn't be fake, you should really care. Pay attention to what they say. This works pretty well for getting to know a person.