5 ms·

I'd more say: they made clear rules if you want to play business in China. Europe never set any boundaries. Honestly our fault.

lazyeye 11mo ago
Our leaders in the West have been very naive. Also the Chinese "elite capture" program has been very effective.
- croes 11mo ago
  You mean old we-don’t-care-bout-human-and-environmental-rights trick? Let’s face it, nobody would care if China just would be a subordinate receiver of orders. As soon they became a competitor there was a problem
  - jajuuka 11mo ago
    And that is the core contention for the anti-China rhetoric. That they are a competitor. There are a billion and one reasons people say they don't like China, but the core issue is competition.
  - dragonelite 11mo ago
    China was suppose to become a giant sweatshop which would be allowed to gain subsistence wealth. Just enough to produce and consume western product but not wealthy enough to ever outgrow their station in the world.
  - like_any_other 11mo ago
    > As soon they became a competitor there was a problem Was there? It seems to me trade and offshoring continued even after they became a competitor. And then continued after they strong-armed Western corporations to invest in China [1], destroyed Western corporations through espionage [2,3], or through subsidy-enabled dumping prices and preferential treatment [4,4.1], after they extracted groveling apologies from Western firms [5], and after they started operating literal police stations on Western soil [6], while turning Western countries into subordinate receivers of orders [7,8]. I guess you were hoping your framing would guilt people into not seeing the threat? [1] Apple CEO Tim Cook "secretly" signed an agreement worth more than $275 billion with Chinese officials, promising that Apple would help to develop China's economy and technological capabilities - https://www.macrumors.com/2021/12/07/apple-ceo-tim-cook-secret-deal-with-china/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/12/07/apple-ceo-tim-cook-secr... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33758673 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33758673 [3] https://globalnews.ca/news/7275588/inside-the-chinese-military-attack-on-nortel/ https://globalnews.ca/news/7275588/inside-the-chinese-milita... [4] https://www.dw.com/en/from-solar-to-evs-how-china-is-overproducing-green-tech/a-68782157 https://www.dw.com/en/from-solar-to-evs-how-china-is-overpro... [4.1] EU: Anti-dumping probe into China solar panels - https://apnews.com/general-news-e16007adf4bd468d9acf849734d2a7cf https://apnews.com/general-news-e16007adf4bd468d9acf849734d2... [5] Mercedes-Benz apologizes to Chinese for quoting Dalai Lama - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mercedes-benz-china-gaffe-idUSKBN1FQ1FJ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mercedes-benz-china-gaffe... [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_police_overseas_service_stations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_police_overseas_servic... [7] FIPA agreement with China: What's really in it for Canada? - https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/fipa-agreement-with-china-what-s-really-in-it-for-canada-1.2770159 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/fipa-agreement-with-china-wha... [8] Posters depicting Hong Kong protests removed by Massey University within 12 hours - https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/116723925/posters-depicting-hong-kong-protests-removed-by-massey-university-within-12-hours https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/116723925/posters-depicting...
    - rando001111 11mo ago
      the west made a deal with the devil for cheap plastic trinkets and reaped what it sowed. that's why switching the manufacturing to India won't do any good either. domestic production or nothing. the "service economy" is a stupid concept.
    - skinnymuch 11mo ago
      Western state department and corporations aren’t the same thing. China is New Democracy where the classes are all represented with the state at the top. That’s not how Old Democracy (liberal democracy) works where the hierarchy between state and corporations is more mixed with corporations in more power. You’re equating things that corporations are doing as if that’s in the best interest of the American state. China is being seen the way it is by white people and white societies because they see a competitor.
  - bulbar 11mo ago
    Nobody would care if China were a democracy or at least not actively threatening Taiwan.
- DiogenesKynikos 11mo ago
  You've got the "elite capture" story the wrong way around. Most of the Chinese elite send their children to study in Europe and the US.
tharne 11mo ago
The only rule the Chinese play by is, "It's only immoral if you get caught".
- coliveira 11mo ago
  I thought this law was invented by American business.
  - earthnail 11mo ago
    The Germans invented that too. That’s why the label Made In Germany exists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_Germany
  - amelius 11mo ago
    American business has this law: "if your business practices are not immoral, then you're not doing it right!"
ta12653421 11mo ago
Well, as European, i have to clearly state - unfortunately - this is only because of what happened in the 20th century: WWII. This "event" changed somehow the psychology, not allowing the EU to "stand up straight with our shoulders back". Unfortunately. With around 500m customers, we could be powerful. But we arent: Stumbling upon our own feeds.
- earthnail 11mo ago
  The countries that comprise the EU had been among the biggest warmongers for centuries. The EU is the most successful peace project the continent has ever seen. And the reason for that is that every country refrained from trying to be a superpower on the continent. The European mentality has real, tangible upsides for its continent. Unfortunately, it doesn’t work well in a larger world where other actors don’t share the same experience and values. Just wanted to put that into perspective.
juliusceasar 11mo ago
Now EU is making clear rules against China. EU should apply exactly the same laws against Chinese like Chinese do against foreigners. China shouldn't complain, especially don't bitch about racism.
- izacus 11mo ago
  That's the same emotional dumb thought process that is sending US economy into tailspin with traiffs.
- echelon 11mo ago
  > especially don't bitch about racism. The "most racist" places are typically the most diverse and most multicultural. They have more exposed tissue than places where minorities make up single digit percentage points, so you see injustices more often in these places. And it follows that it gets reported on at volume. By that same coin, these places also have more friendly interactions by volume than places without diverse racial makeups. You just don't see that reported because it's not news. America, "racist", simply has a very diverse population. The American South, "racist against Black people", simply has the nation's largest population of Black people almost to the point the racial makeup is bimodal. Texas, "racist against Latinos", - same thing. You see the bad apples, but you don't see the overwhelming degree to which society works with people together in a melting pot. I grew up in the South, where every second person is Black. I fly to SF where there are barely any Black people at all and have dinner conversations with people calling my region racist. Sometimes the people saying these things grew up in all-white cities in New England. I have to laugh inside.
  - skinnymuch 11mo ago
    SF region is gonna be racist among other things itself. That is true of all of America but there’s levels to this and American south is more racist. Don’t have to grow up in a diverse place to see/know that.
like_any_other 11mo ago
> they made clear rules if you want to play business in China. Not really: https://www.hudson.org/technology/china-ignores-rule-of-law-to-dominate-global-telecommunications https://www.hudson.org/technology/china-ignores-rule-of-law-... Apple CEO Tim Cook "secretly" signed an agreement worth more than $275 billion with Chinese officials, promising that Apple would help to develop China's economy and technological capabilities - https://www.macrumors.com/2021/12/07/apple-ceo-tim-cook-secret-deal-with-china/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/12/07/apple-ceo-tim-cook-secr...

lazyeye 11mo ago

Our leaders in the West have been very naive. Also the Chinese "elite capture" program has been very effective.

croes 11mo ago
You mean old we-don’t-care-bout-human-and-environmental-rights trick? Let’s face it, nobody would care if China just would be a subordinate receiver of orders. As soon they became a competitor there was a problem
- jajuuka 11mo ago
  And that is the core contention for the anti-China rhetoric. That they are a competitor. There are a billion and one reasons people say they don't like China, but the core issue is competition.
- dragonelite 11mo ago
  China was suppose to become a giant sweatshop which would be allowed to gain subsistence wealth. Just enough to produce and consume western product but not wealthy enough to ever outgrow their station in the world.
- like_any_other 11mo ago
  > As soon they became a competitor there was a problem Was there? It seems to me trade and offshoring continued even after they became a competitor. And then continued after they strong-armed Western corporations to invest in China [1], destroyed Western corporations through espionage [2,3], or through subsidy-enabled dumping prices and preferential treatment [4,4.1], after they extracted groveling apologies from Western firms [5], and after they started operating literal police stations on Western soil [6], while turning Western countries into subordinate receivers of orders [7,8]. I guess you were hoping your framing would guilt people into not seeing the threat? [1] Apple CEO Tim Cook "secretly" signed an agreement worth more than $275 billion with Chinese officials, promising that Apple would help to develop China's economy and technological capabilities - https://www.macrumors.com/2021/12/07/apple-ceo-tim-cook-secret-deal-with-china/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/12/07/apple-ceo-tim-cook-secr... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33758673 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33758673 [3] https://globalnews.ca/news/7275588/inside-the-chinese-military-attack-on-nortel/ https://globalnews.ca/news/7275588/inside-the-chinese-milita... [4] https://www.dw.com/en/from-solar-to-evs-how-china-is-overproducing-green-tech/a-68782157 https://www.dw.com/en/from-solar-to-evs-how-china-is-overpro... [4.1] EU: Anti-dumping probe into China solar panels - https://apnews.com/general-news-e16007adf4bd468d9acf849734d2a7cf https://apnews.com/general-news-e16007adf4bd468d9acf849734d2... [5] Mercedes-Benz apologizes to Chinese for quoting Dalai Lama - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mercedes-benz-china-gaffe-idUSKBN1FQ1FJ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mercedes-benz-china-gaffe... [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_police_overseas_service_stations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_police_overseas_servic... [7] FIPA agreement with China: What's really in it for Canada? - https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/fipa-agreement-with-china-what-s-really-in-it-for-canada-1.2770159 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/fipa-agreement-with-china-wha... [8] Posters depicting Hong Kong protests removed by Massey University within 12 hours - https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/116723925/posters-depicting-hong-kong-protests-removed-by-massey-university-within-12-hours https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/116723925/posters-depicting...
  - rando001111 11mo ago
    the west made a deal with the devil for cheap plastic trinkets and reaped what it sowed. that's why switching the manufacturing to India won't do any good either. domestic production or nothing. the "service economy" is a stupid concept.
  - skinnymuch 11mo ago
    Western state department and corporations aren’t the same thing. China is New Democracy where the classes are all represented with the state at the top. That’s not how Old Democracy (liberal democracy) works where the hierarchy between state and corporations is more mixed with corporations in more power. You’re equating things that corporations are doing as if that’s in the best interest of the American state. China is being seen the way it is by white people and white societies because they see a competitor.
- bulbar 11mo ago
  Nobody would care if China were a democracy or at least not actively threatening Taiwan.
DiogenesKynikos 11mo ago
You've got the "elite capture" story the wrong way around. Most of the Chinese elite send their children to study in Europe and the US.

tharne 11mo ago

The only rule the Chinese play by is, "It's only immoral if you get caught".

coliveira 11mo ago
I thought this law was invented by American business.
- earthnail 11mo ago
  The Germans invented that too. That’s why the label Made In Germany exists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_Germany
- amelius 11mo ago
  American business has this law: "if your business practices are not immoral, then you're not doing it right!"

ta12653421 11mo ago

Well, as European, i have to clearly state - unfortunately - this is only because of what happened in the 20th century: WWII. This "event" changed somehow the psychology, not allowing the EU to "stand up straight with our shoulders back". Unfortunately. With around 500m customers, we could be powerful. But we arent: Stumbling upon our own feeds.

earthnail 11mo ago
The countries that comprise the EU had been among the biggest warmongers for centuries. The EU is the most successful peace project the continent has ever seen. And the reason for that is that every country refrained from trying to be a superpower on the continent. The European mentality has real, tangible upsides for its continent. Unfortunately, it doesn’t work well in a larger world where other actors don’t share the same experience and values. Just wanted to put that into perspective.

juliusceasar 11mo ago

Now EU is making clear rules against China. EU should apply exactly the same laws against Chinese like Chinese do against foreigners. China shouldn't complain, especially don't bitch about racism.

izacus 11mo ago
That's the same emotional dumb thought process that is sending US economy into tailspin with traiffs.
echelon 11mo ago
> especially don't bitch about racism. The "most racist" places are typically the most diverse and most multicultural. They have more exposed tissue than places where minorities make up single digit percentage points, so you see injustices more often in these places. And it follows that it gets reported on at volume. By that same coin, these places also have more friendly interactions by volume than places without diverse racial makeups. You just don't see that reported because it's not news. America, "racist", simply has a very diverse population. The American South, "racist against Black people", simply has the nation's largest population of Black people almost to the point the racial makeup is bimodal. Texas, "racist against Latinos", - same thing. You see the bad apples, but you don't see the overwhelming degree to which society works with people together in a melting pot. I grew up in the South, where every second person is Black. I fly to SF where there are barely any Black people at all and have dinner conversations with people calling my region racist. Sometimes the people saying these things grew up in all-white cities in New England. I have to laugh inside.
- skinnymuch 11mo ago
  SF region is gonna be racist among other things itself. That is true of all of America but there’s levels to this and American south is more racist. Don’t have to grow up in a diverse place to see/know that.

like_any_other 11mo ago

> they made clear rules if you want to play business in China. Not really: https://www.hudson.org/technology/china-ignores-rule-of-law-to-dominate-global-telecommunications https://www.hudson.org/technology/china-ignores-rule-of-law-... Apple CEO Tim Cook "secretly" signed an agreement worth more than $275 billion with Chinese officials, promising that Apple would help to develop China's economy and technological capabilities - https://www.macrumors.com/2021/12/07/apple-ceo-tim-cook-secret-deal-with-china/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/12/07/apple-ceo-tim-cook-secr...