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It always amazes me that some Europeans look to the USA as some goal to aspire to. As an American, all I’m trying to do is get rich enough to move to Europe so
by Mistletoe 11mo ago
It always amazes me that some Europeans look to the USA as some goal to aspire to. As an American, all I’m trying to do is get rich enough to move to Europe someday. There are greater goals than growth at all costs. Things like respecting the humans that live there and putting their well-being above corporations. If that thwarts “growth”, so be it.
- anovikov 11mo agoOne problem about it is that without growth, there's no way European pension commitments will be paid. Growth was baked into these promises and we don't have any.
- Andrex 11mo agoWhat kind of stupid idiots would ever design a system that assumed indefinite growth? We get what we deserve...
- jayess 11mo agoDemocracy. Vote yourself money.
- groundzeros2015 11mo agoWhat about a political outlook where nothing ever gets better in the future
- tacker2000 11mo agoYou have to go deeper than that, I think in the end our whole species’ goal is growth at all costs and this is subconsciously baked into every decision we make…
- mongol 11mo agoThe system is not designed, and it does not assume indefinite growth. But another way to capture your point is to say our society strives toward constant improvement, which I don't really see an obvious end to. It is always possible to improve, isn't it?
- robtherobber 11mo agoBelieve me, it amazes many of us Europeans too. We have a real life example of how those policies will eventually play out (and tens of years of research that confirm the immense disbenefits of such an approach), and yet here we are.
- bilbo0s 11mo agoProblem is that there's also a "real life example of how those policies will eventually play out (and tens of years of research that confirm the immense [benefits to the billionaires] of such an approach)". Just as in the US, the billionaires wield enormous influence. Maybe not quite as much, but pretty close. So as long as there are benefits to the wealthy of these policies, I think the Europeans will pursue them. (At least until the French start doing that thing that the French do when things get too unfair in this regard. And then the cycle will start all over again.)
- fijiaarone 11mo agoThe American billionaire class absolutely controls Europe, and American politics dictates European policy. There is the illusion of European ascendance right now because the American soft power is being channeled through Europe because the faction of the US government (that still controls the majority of soft power) is out of power politically, so they project their values (and funnel their money) through Europeans. When a Democrat returns to power in the USA, nobody will care what European vassal governments and corporations say or do anymore. American projection through Europe has made Europe weaker and more subservient than ever.
- siavosh 11mo agoI’m reading a book by a British author called Against the Machine which you may enjoy. It distills this pervasive unease so many have felt of this growth at all cost system that has been rapidly eating the world. The environmental, humanistic, moral, and spiritual costs of this “machine” is sometimes hard to see when it’s all we’ve known.
- saubeidl 11mo agoOn a very related note, I can recommend Capitalist Realism by Mark Fisher. To quote Wiki: > It explores Fisher's concept of "capitalist realism", which he describes as "the widespread sense that not only is capitalism the only viable political and economic system, but also that it is now impossible even to imagine a coherent alternative to it." > The book investigates what Fisher describes as the widespread effects of neoliberal ideology on popular culture, work, education, and mental health in contemporary society
- siavosh 11mo agoThanks added to my list. I do believe that with the inevitable obsolescence of most work the system will continue to destabilize and some alternative will arise (maybe not in my lifetime) although I’m not optimistic it won’t by dystopian.
- xp84 11mo agoBut haven’t many countries not only imagined but tried very different alternatives to capitalism? What have we learned from those countries? It seems to always come back to the fact that people who get power always attempt to use that power to get more resources and power, violating all their supposed values and stealing resources from the public. Personally, I am far from enamored with the apparent equilibrium state of capitalism, if that’s what we have in the US. However, when you compare how I feel about American capitalism to how I feel about North Korean totalitarianism, Venezuelan corrupt socialism, Soviet murderous communism, Cuban destructive communism, etc etc. suddenly I appear to be a booster for capitalism.
- 11mo ago
- onlyrealcuzzo 11mo ago> As an American, all I’m trying to do is get rich enough to move to Europe someday. How do Europeans get rich enough to have that life you dream about in Europe once you're rich enough from making money in America to move there?
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- toomuchtodo 11mo agoThey do not need to because their social systems are structured around public goods and services for humans instead of profits. Americans have to get rich to buy into a functional system, because they were unlucky enough to be born on the wrong soil. My health insurance for a family of 4 in Spain is $2k/year. In the US, $20k+ (premiums, copays, etc). Why? Combined market cap of UHC and CVS as of this comment is $391B. (Just one example, there are many) https://finviz.com/map.ashx https://finviz.com/map.ashx (am American who splits his time in Europe, and agrees with thread parent Europe > US; the US is an extraction engine, at its core)
- BobbyTables2 11mo agoYes, but can you eat out once a week without breaking the budget on a European salary?
- toomuchtodo 11mo agoWe are perhaps optimizing for different things. Dining out is not important to me versus affordable, accessible healthcare, for example.
- trashb 11mo agoyes you can, there are European cultures where eating out more than once a week is common.
- verzali 11mo agoYes, even most days in the week if you want.
- vatsachak 11mo agoHave you travelled Europe? Other than in some countries like Germany or Ireland the job situation is quite bleak. For example, look at average wages vs living costs in Madrid
- HPsquared 11mo agoLiving costs in Ireland are crazy though. Dublin is more expensive (on average) than London, I'd say.
- dnissley 11mo agoThat's why you need to get rich before moving to Europe
- mothballed 11mo agoOr just live like a European? The cost of a Latvian investment visa is something like the price of an average new car. It's obtainable to most anyone gainfully employed in skilled labor in the USA. Virtually anyone here that wants one can get it and move there.
- vatsachak 11mo agoOkay, besides being of Latvian descent, why would one want to move from the US to Latvia?
- mothballed 11mo agoHomebase for smuggling French cheeses into Russia?
- hexbin010 11mo agoExactly. I think people think it means you get an EU passport immediately or something and can spend 364 days a year in any EU country?? You only get a Schengen visa and are restricted to 180 days total outside of Latvia, inside the Schengen. But you can do that without a Latvian residence permit... AIUI it's 10 years to get an EU - sorry, Latvian - passport and for an individual year to count towards that you need 183+ days a year in Latvia
- ReptileMan 11mo ago>There are greater goals than growth at all costs. Those greater goals are easier to achieve when you are the biggest economy of the world.
- saubeidl 11mo agoThat is true and the EU benefited greatly from that status pre-Brexit. However, it still has more than enough leverage to pursue said goals. The key insight here, however, is that being the biggest economy in the world or growth is not a goal in itself. It is an enabler of all sorts of quality of life goals, but don't make the mistake of sacrificing the end for the means.
- hurrrr 11mo agoYes, but this only works as long as the economy remains competitive. Europe is rapidly squandering the human and economic capital it has accumulated over centuries, while the US and Asia continue to grow. Welfare exists as long as someone pays for it.
- otikik 11mo agoIn the US and Asia, wealth is concentrating in a few individuals. Those don't pay welfare anyway and pay less taxes than me.
- positr0n 11mo agoThis is a problem, but unrelated to what the parent is saying. If you taxed 100% of the wealth of all US billionaires it looks like it would pay for social security, medicare, and medicaid for about a year and a half. You still need a strong economy and middle class tax base to have any sort of welfare state.
- otikik 11mo agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_Unite... The top 1% of the people hold 30% of all the wealth. The top 10% hold 60% of the wealth.
- hartator 11mo ago> As an American, all I’m trying to do is get rich enough to move to Europe someday. Why not directly work in the EU?
- harimau777 11mo agoPersonally, I'd love to do that. Good luck actually getting one of those jobs though; particularly if living in a city is important to you.
- mono442 11mo agoAre you ready to live in a 300 sq feet shoebox apartment instead of a normal single family house?
- dminor 11mo agoYou don't have to be rich to move to Europe. The cost of living in most European countries is less than the USA (which you would expect, given their lower salaries).
- harimau777 11mo agoThe need to be rich comes from the need to get a visa, language training, and rebuild your social structure. Also, the cost of living is nothing to sneeze at if you are a city person.
- otikik 11mo agoI was like that when I was growing up. The cultural influence that the US exercises outwards with Hollywood, music, etc cannot be understaded.
- mrtksn 11mo agoThere are some aspect of the US culture that are truly fascinating and IMHO most Europeans are jealous of but the rest is a cautionary tale about how you can be very rich(as a number on the bank UI) and have horrible life. The next iteration of the Christmas Carol could be one where they take a European aspiring to be American to US to show him the consequences of greed and isolation. Honestly, US is currently in a stage that Europe was long time ago. Greed, nationalism, military might, fast paces unchecked advancements in tech, rampant religious fundamentalism and sectarianism etc. All those thing are stuff Europeans went through. That's why the Charles Dickens stories fit nicely.
- BobbyTables2 11mo agoI don’t understand how expensive Europe is yet income is proportionately low. I don’t mean to live a life of luxury — just basic survival. Sure restaurant prices are about the same … for 1/3rd the amount of food.
- fijiaarone 11mo agoVacation every day, right?