7 ms·

I know this is a tangent but honestly, this is why the Google decision to de-openify Android is insane even from Google's point of view. Who would want to be an

by zmmmmm 1y ago

I know this is a tangent but honestly, this is why the Google decision to de-openify Android is insane even from Google's point of view. Who would want to be an iron clad gate keeper when the world is descending into authoritarianism? You just paint a giant target on your back for the authoritarians to come after. If Apple had supported open iCloud alternatives for backup and other services from day one, it woudn't even be a discussion now. The UK probably wouldn't have thought of the idea of mandating against E2E encryption because it would be self evident it would actually just churn people to alternatives where they have less leverage and visibility. But Apple couldn't resist bricking up the walled garden and now it's hostile to both them and their users, and to be honest, everyone on the planet since it is obvious that once this happens in the UK it will be silly for every government everywhere not to follow suit.

tombert 1y ago
I mean, I think the answer to this is the very simple: they think it will lead to more money. I'm sure someone in a board meeting saw something about GrapheneOS and LineageOS and Cyanogen and feels like if they de-open Android, some (or most) of those users will move to vanilla Android, and that will lead to profits. I'm not saying that they're right about this; I think ultimately very few (if any) people actually know how to run businesses and it's all about giving an appearance of maximizing profitability, and as long as it leads to a potential short term stock boost then these executives get their huge bonuses and they can just blame the next guy when things break. This isn't really theoretical; look at how Jack Welch took one of the most respected companies in the world, more or less integrated ponzinomics to temporarily bump the stock prices, and 20+ years later GE is kind of a joke and isn't even on the S&P500 anymore.
- tasn 1y ago
  I don't have exact numbers, but I'm sure Graphene, Lineage, and all of the mods combined are much less than 1% of all android users; as well as these customers being less profitable than average as a marketing target. Posting this from my lineage phone.
  - tombert 1y ago
    I don't dispute that at all. I don't think it matters, it just needs to look like they're doing something to avoid forks and the like. That said, there might be stuff that's actually using open source Android for profit. For example, the Nook Glowlight Plus, which runs a modded version of Android, doesn't appear to have any direct or even indirect references to Android anywhere (and I had to contribute a bit to the discourse to even get the rooting to work [1]). I have no ideas about the inner dealings of Barnes and Noble, but it wouldn't surprise me if they're running a completely forked version of FOSS Android and aren't paying a dime to Google for it. I suspect these are the things that Google is trying to crack down on. [1] https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=360563&page=4 https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=360563&pa...
  - AtlasBarfed 1y ago
    Yes. They have 99.9% of the mobile phones. The phone was the end of open computing, the tech companies obtained an iron grip on the platform, this time with fully accepted total monitoring and data collection down to everything you say, hear, everywhere you go, and with smartwatch biosensors, everything you feel. The only thing left is to get smart glasses and they will know everything you see. Smell they can probably interpolate. It happened over a decade ago, and that might as well be 100 years ago in modern attention spans. All the governments have to do is pay the companies money, or simply force-legislate, or threaten under the table for all that info, and for permanent forever access to active tracking and monitoring. AI provides all the analysis they need to watch the firehose. It's all there. At this point it doesn't matter if an alternative comes. It'll be such the minority, that the social graph will fill all the holes. And they can simply track your IMEI regardless from the towers, listen in with other nearby microphones/phones. There is no escape. All that remains is for the key to be turned for worse-than-1984 authoritarianism. It's right there, ready for the AI-empowered 50% of consumption controlled, 90% of stocks owned oligarchy to use.
    - harshreality 1y ago
      Open computing still exists. It's just overshadowed by the prevalence of locked mobile devices because those are convenient and good enough for the vast majority, who would rather use those than a less convenient desktop, laptop, or even raspberrypi. Surveillance on the internet is challenging to avoid, but internet surveillance and tracking doesn't extend to (outside-of-browser) local compute.
jordanb 1y ago
The tech bros are of the opinion that they can ride the rising authoritarianism like a Fremen riding a sandworm.
- DSingularity 1y ago
  lol Tech bros helped Israel genocide Gaza. Tech bros are pro-authoritarianism.
  - tekbruh9000 1y ago
    [dead]
  - abc123abc123 1y ago
    [flagged]
sethherr 1y ago
I think the fact that Apple is having to fight this fight is evidence of why they were right to make a secure walled garden. I don’t know of any other service I would recommend my mother use for securely backing up her phone. I think the UK is ultimately going to roll back this law. I don’t think this means that iCloud E2E is hostile to Apple or its users. I think Apple is going to win. The war isn’t won by telling people to use GPG https://moxie.org/2015/02/24/gpg-and-me.html https://moxie.org/2015/02/24/gpg-and-me.html
- teiferer 1y ago
  > I think the fact that Apple is having to fight this fight is evidence of why they were right to make a secure walled garden Would you mind explaining? I don't see how that's evidence.
- mistercheph 1y ago
  yeah guys, we don’t win by using free and open technologies, we win if we all buy {NAMECORP} devices, that’s true victory right there, backed by a real warranty, that’s what grandma wants
  - swiftcoder 1y ago
    If you have a free and open technology that is sufficiently user-friendly that grandma isn't going to lose all her photos, I'm all ears
    - qn9n 1y ago
      This is the major issue, most free and open technology is not marketed as well; isn't anywhere near as user friendly and often times takes a lot more time and effort to setup. Most people don't care enough for that.
    - realusername 1y ago
      Modern devices are so locked down that you couldn't build such software even if you wanted to. Those corporations are part of the problem, not the solution.
chongli 1y ago
Who would want to be an iron clad gate keeper when the world is descending into authoritarianism? Powerful people don't think this way. They think they can leverage the authoritarian regime to their own advantage. They're biased to ignore risks and seek out opportunities. That's what got them to their position of success!
- Atlas667 1y ago
  They ARE the authoritarian regime. This myth that capitalist perpetuate that the rich are not the government is the best lie out there. The rich are the government. They are the national interests, countries' industries' is their property.
  - Wolfenstein98k 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - dontlaugh 1y ago
      It’s merely a perspective you’re not used to seeing. It doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
      - teiferer 1y ago
        Though illustrative of the difference between arguments and mere statements of opinion.
      - Wolfenstein98k 1y ago
        Yeah, I didn't say it was wrong. But it's not new to me, I've seen hundreds of comments just like it. It just stood out to me because it doesn't appeal to any facts, or anything you would expect in this commentariat - just a bunch of pretty low resolution, low-brow opinions.
    - Atlas667 1y ago
      Maybe I'm too sleepy for rhetoric. But a country needs material resources to exist, right? Some of these are food, shelter, energy, health, entertainment and security. These are all private enterprises in a capitalist state. For example, the energy sector is a group of capitalist enterprises. The energy sector is also at the same time something the population needs. Therefore it is also crucial to the nation, its a national security. They country would go to war in order to secure resources for the energy industry because it is a part of national security. Another: walmart is americas veins and its a group of peoples property. Walmart is national security. The fact that some of these are publicly traded does not change their relationship to ownership.
shuckles 1y ago
> If Apple had supported open iCloud alternatives for backup and other services from day one, it woudn't even be a discussion now. You think the OS vendor is unable to snoop on data written to 3rd party clouds from their devices?
- SXX 1y ago
  If they leave backdoors they will eventually be known.
  - Someone 1y ago
    Chances are the UK government would require them to create that backdoor for them, and Apple would publicize that (implicitly, if the UK government would also forbid them to tell it explicitly)
VerifiedReports 1y ago
Android has been a fraud for a long time now. Let's not pretend that the "open-source" mobile OS that was supposed to free us all from vendor and telco tyranny ever approached that promise. Did they even really try? As far as iCloud "alternatives" go... Android doesn't offer ANY legitimate syncing infrastructure to compete with iCloud, open or not.
- eptcyka 1y ago
  You can sync a backup over webdav on GrapheneOS.
  - VerifiedReports 1y ago
    A backup is not all a replacement for iCloud. The point is to sync application data between native apps running on different (and even different kinds of) devices. PIM-style data (calendar, contacts, notes, bookmarks, and so forth) probably comes first for most people. Apple has also added useful stuff like Wi-Fi passwords and E-mail account configurations. And then developers can create their own entries in the iCloud data store for their own apps. This is hugely useful. I'm not aware of any similar facility that comes with Android, but I'd be happy to hear about it if there is.
    - eptcyka 1y ago
      You can use nextcloud for all pf that, not that I’d recommend it. There are solutions, even hosted ones.
      - VerifiedReports 1y ago
        Is there something else you'd recommend? Regardless, though, if it's not built into the OS, developers can't rely on it being present on a majority of users' phones.
- beeflet 1y ago
  You can install syncthing-fork or nextcloud
methuselah_in 1y ago
simply i will be starting using Linux distributions on the devices which support them. Usually the gsm wcda etc are too much buried in patents and mostly closed source, but eventually how android bloomed initially as it was open source. I believe one day Linux will be there and again google and apple can have something to worry about and they will again open. One major thing is why google allowing people to use Linux apps on their android 16-17 by default i guess is because of this.
hk1337 1y ago
This whole idea of conflating a closed system like Apple has created with authoritarianism is silly. If anything authoritarianism is the UK trying to force Apple to open up (so they exploit it to monitor their citizens). Apple created a product, not just the iPhone but a whole ecosystem that’s supposed to help the user feel secure. There’s isn’t the only product out there and as long as they’re not preventing new competitors, everyone needs to back off.
- Steve16384 1y ago
  Apple do everything in their power to prevent competition: forcing Safari, forcing payments to go through Apple so they can take their cut etc...
  - NetMageSCW 1y ago
    Apple does everything in their power (as allowed by governments who want to have that power) to protect their customers: forcing Safari, forcing payments through Apple, etc…
- ulrikrasmussen 1y ago
  They're not conflating them, they are pointing out that the closedness of the system and the control it gives Apple will be a useful tool to authoritarians who can force Apple to exert their power in certain ways. Everyone who is not a public service is just "making a product", but when your product is actually half of all endpoints for digital services and communication and you insist on not handing control to the users, then you effectively control half the infrastructure.
  - Gagarin1917 1y ago
    >They're not conflating them, they are pointing out that the closedness of the system and the control it gives Apple will be a useful tool to authoritarians who can force Apple to exert their power in certain ways. Oh well that’s not new. Apple has operated in China, Saudi Arabia, and Russia. So the idea that they would be hesitant to dip their feet into complying with less savory governments is… laughable. The current political landscape really isn’t new whatsoever. It might even be less authoritarianism overall than when Apple started in the 80’s.
egorfine 1y ago
> Who would want to be an iron clad gate keeper when the world is descending into authoritarianism The gatekeepers.
re-thc 1y ago
> If Apple had supported open iCloud alternatives for backup and other services from day one, it woudn't even be a discussion now Why does Apple need to do extra work and increase support? The average user really doesn't care and choices just make it more complicated. > The UK probably wouldn't have thought of the idea of The UK has lost the plot long ago. It's been drama after drama.
whywhywhywhy 1y ago
Didn't Apple already open up all their services to a backdoor in China? Was it ever really about privacy or is privacy just a convenient excuse to have a selection of elevated Apple solutions with privileges above 3rd parties.
phyzix5761 1y ago
People unknowingly help big corporations destroy smaller competitors by demanding more regulations. In reality, those same corporations often fund the very laws and "anti-corporate" movements that claim to restrain them using lobbying and fake grassroots[1][2] campaigns to shape rules that raise costs for smaller rivals and secure more market share. This shouldn’t be surprising. Political competitive advantage is even taught in business schools, as Michael E. Porter explains in Competitive Strategy. The only way to counter it is through competition: support companies that offer substitute services and stop playing into Google’s and Apple’s hands by calling for more regulations. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/30/how-google-and-amazon-bankrolled-a-grassroots-activist-group-of-small-business-owners-to-lobby-against-big-tech-oversight.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/30/how-google-and-amazon-bankro... [2] https://www.iccr.org/resolutions/lobbying-expenditures-disclosure-2/ https://www.iccr.org/resolutions/lobbying-expenditures-discl...

by zmmmmm 1y ago

tombert 1y ago

I mean, I think the answer to this is the very simple: they think it will lead to more money. I'm sure someone in a board meeting saw something about GrapheneOS and LineageOS and Cyanogen and feels like if they de-open Android, some (or most) of those users will move to vanilla Android, and that will lead to profits. I'm not saying that they're right about this; I think ultimately very few (if any) people actually know how to run businesses and it's all about giving an appearance of maximizing profitability, and as long as it leads to a potential short term stock boost then these executives get their huge bonuses and they can just blame the next guy when things break. This isn't really theoretical; look at how Jack Welch took one of the most respected companies in the world, more or less integrated ponzinomics to temporarily bump the stock prices, and 20+ years later GE is kind of a joke and isn't even on the S&P500 anymore.

tasn 1y ago
I don't have exact numbers, but I'm sure Graphene, Lineage, and all of the mods combined are much less than 1% of all android users; as well as these customers being less profitable than average as a marketing target. Posting this from my lineage phone.
- tombert 1y ago
  I don't dispute that at all. I don't think it matters, it just needs to look like they're doing something to avoid forks and the like. That said, there might be stuff that's actually using open source Android for profit. For example, the Nook Glowlight Plus, which runs a modded version of Android, doesn't appear to have any direct or even indirect references to Android anywhere (and I had to contribute a bit to the discourse to even get the rooting to work [1]). I have no ideas about the inner dealings of Barnes and Noble, but it wouldn't surprise me if they're running a completely forked version of FOSS Android and aren't paying a dime to Google for it. I suspect these are the things that Google is trying to crack down on. [1] https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=360563&page=4 https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=360563&pa...
- AtlasBarfed 1y ago
  Yes. They have 99.9% of the mobile phones. The phone was the end of open computing, the tech companies obtained an iron grip on the platform, this time with fully accepted total monitoring and data collection down to everything you say, hear, everywhere you go, and with smartwatch biosensors, everything you feel. The only thing left is to get smart glasses and they will know everything you see. Smell they can probably interpolate. It happened over a decade ago, and that might as well be 100 years ago in modern attention spans. All the governments have to do is pay the companies money, or simply force-legislate, or threaten under the table for all that info, and for permanent forever access to active tracking and monitoring. AI provides all the analysis they need to watch the firehose. It's all there. At this point it doesn't matter if an alternative comes. It'll be such the minority, that the social graph will fill all the holes. And they can simply track your IMEI regardless from the towers, listen in with other nearby microphones/phones. There is no escape. All that remains is for the key to be turned for worse-than-1984 authoritarianism. It's right there, ready for the AI-empowered 50% of consumption controlled, 90% of stocks owned oligarchy to use.
  - harshreality 1y ago
    Open computing still exists. It's just overshadowed by the prevalence of locked mobile devices because those are convenient and good enough for the vast majority, who would rather use those than a less convenient desktop, laptop, or even raspberrypi. Surveillance on the internet is challenging to avoid, but internet surveillance and tracking doesn't extend to (outside-of-browser) local compute.

jordanb 1y ago

The tech bros are of the opinion that they can ride the rising authoritarianism like a Fremen riding a sandworm.

DSingularity 1y ago
lol Tech bros helped Israel genocide Gaza. Tech bros are pro-authoritarianism.
- tekbruh9000 1y ago
  [dead]
- abc123abc123 1y ago
  [flagged]

sethherr 1y ago

I think the fact that Apple is having to fight this fight is evidence of why they were right to make a secure walled garden. I don’t know of any other service I would recommend my mother use for securely backing up her phone. I think the UK is ultimately going to roll back this law. I don’t think this means that iCloud E2E is hostile to Apple or its users. I think Apple is going to win. The war isn’t won by telling people to use GPG https://moxie.org/2015/02/24/gpg-and-me.html https://moxie.org/2015/02/24/gpg-and-me.html

teiferer 1y ago
> I think the fact that Apple is having to fight this fight is evidence of why they were right to make a secure walled garden Would you mind explaining? I don't see how that's evidence.
mistercheph 1y ago
yeah guys, we don’t win by using free and open technologies, we win if we all buy {NAMECORP} devices, that’s true victory right there, backed by a real warranty, that’s what grandma wants
- swiftcoder 1y ago
  If you have a free and open technology that is sufficiently user-friendly that grandma isn't going to lose all her photos, I'm all ears
  - qn9n 1y ago
    This is the major issue, most free and open technology is not marketed as well; isn't anywhere near as user friendly and often times takes a lot more time and effort to setup. Most people don't care enough for that.
  - realusername 1y ago
    Modern devices are so locked down that you couldn't build such software even if you wanted to. Those corporations are part of the problem, not the solution.

chongli 1y ago

Who would want to be an iron clad gate keeper when the world is descending into authoritarianism? Powerful people don't think this way. They think they can leverage the authoritarian regime to their own advantage. They're biased to ignore risks and seek out opportunities. That's what got them to their position of success!

Atlas667 1y ago
They ARE the authoritarian regime. This myth that capitalist perpetuate that the rich are not the government is the best lie out there. The rich are the government. They are the national interests, countries' industries' is their property.
- Wolfenstein98k 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - dontlaugh 1y ago
    It’s merely a perspective you’re not used to seeing. It doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
    - teiferer 1y ago
      Though illustrative of the difference between arguments and mere statements of opinion.
    - Wolfenstein98k 1y ago
      Yeah, I didn't say it was wrong. But it's not new to me, I've seen hundreds of comments just like it. It just stood out to me because it doesn't appeal to any facts, or anything you would expect in this commentariat - just a bunch of pretty low resolution, low-brow opinions.
  - Atlas667 1y ago
    Maybe I'm too sleepy for rhetoric. But a country needs material resources to exist, right? Some of these are food, shelter, energy, health, entertainment and security. These are all private enterprises in a capitalist state. For example, the energy sector is a group of capitalist enterprises. The energy sector is also at the same time something the population needs. Therefore it is also crucial to the nation, its a national security. They country would go to war in order to secure resources for the energy industry because it is a part of national security. Another: walmart is americas veins and its a group of peoples property. Walmart is national security. The fact that some of these are publicly traded does not change their relationship to ownership.

shuckles 1y ago

> If Apple had supported open iCloud alternatives for backup and other services from day one, it woudn't even be a discussion now. You think the OS vendor is unable to snoop on data written to 3rd party clouds from their devices?

SXX 1y ago
If they leave backdoors they will eventually be known.
- Someone 1y ago
  Chances are the UK government would require them to create that backdoor for them, and Apple would publicize that (implicitly, if the UK government would also forbid them to tell it explicitly)

VerifiedReports 1y ago

Android has been a fraud for a long time now. Let's not pretend that the "open-source" mobile OS that was supposed to free us all from vendor and telco tyranny ever approached that promise. Did they even really try? As far as iCloud "alternatives" go... Android doesn't offer ANY legitimate syncing infrastructure to compete with iCloud, open or not.

eptcyka 1y ago
You can sync a backup over webdav on GrapheneOS.
- VerifiedReports 1y ago
  A backup is not all a replacement for iCloud. The point is to sync application data between native apps running on different (and even different kinds of) devices. PIM-style data (calendar, contacts, notes, bookmarks, and so forth) probably comes first for most people. Apple has also added useful stuff like Wi-Fi passwords and E-mail account configurations. And then developers can create their own entries in the iCloud data store for their own apps. This is hugely useful. I'm not aware of any similar facility that comes with Android, but I'd be happy to hear about it if there is.
  - eptcyka 1y ago
    You can use nextcloud for all pf that, not that I’d recommend it. There are solutions, even hosted ones.
    - VerifiedReports 1y ago
      Is there something else you'd recommend? Regardless, though, if it's not built into the OS, developers can't rely on it being present on a majority of users' phones.
beeflet 1y ago
You can install syncthing-fork or nextcloud

methuselah_in 1y ago

simply i will be starting using Linux distributions on the devices which support them. Usually the gsm wcda etc are too much buried in patents and mostly closed source, but eventually how android bloomed initially as it was open source. I believe one day Linux will be there and again google and apple can have something to worry about and they will again open. One major thing is why google allowing people to use Linux apps on their android 16-17 by default i guess is because of this.

hk1337 1y ago

This whole idea of conflating a closed system like Apple has created with authoritarianism is silly. If anything authoritarianism is the UK trying to force Apple to open up (so they exploit it to monitor their citizens). Apple created a product, not just the iPhone but a whole ecosystem that’s supposed to help the user feel secure. There’s isn’t the only product out there and as long as they’re not preventing new competitors, everyone needs to back off.

Steve16384 1y ago
Apple do everything in their power to prevent competition: forcing Safari, forcing payments to go through Apple so they can take their cut etc...
- NetMageSCW 1y ago
  Apple does everything in their power (as allowed by governments who want to have that power) to protect their customers: forcing Safari, forcing payments through Apple, etc…
ulrikrasmussen 1y ago
They're not conflating them, they are pointing out that the closedness of the system and the control it gives Apple will be a useful tool to authoritarians who can force Apple to exert their power in certain ways. Everyone who is not a public service is just "making a product", but when your product is actually half of all endpoints for digital services and communication and you insist on not handing control to the users, then you effectively control half the infrastructure.
- Gagarin1917 1y ago
  >They're not conflating them, they are pointing out that the closedness of the system and the control it gives Apple will be a useful tool to authoritarians who can force Apple to exert their power in certain ways. Oh well that’s not new. Apple has operated in China, Saudi Arabia, and Russia. So the idea that they would be hesitant to dip their feet into complying with less savory governments is… laughable. The current political landscape really isn’t new whatsoever. It might even be less authoritarianism overall than when Apple started in the 80’s.

egorfine 1y ago

> Who would want to be an iron clad gate keeper when the world is descending into authoritarianism The gatekeepers.

re-thc 1y ago

> If Apple had supported open iCloud alternatives for backup and other services from day one, it woudn't even be a discussion now Why does Apple need to do extra work and increase support? The average user really doesn't care and choices just make it more complicated. > The UK probably wouldn't have thought of the idea of The UK has lost the plot long ago. It's been drama after drama.

whywhywhywhy 1y ago

Didn't Apple already open up all their services to a backdoor in China? Was it ever really about privacy or is privacy just a convenient excuse to have a selection of elevated Apple solutions with privileges above 3rd parties.

phyzix5761 1y ago

People unknowingly help big corporations destroy smaller competitors by demanding more regulations. In reality, those same corporations often fund the very laws and "anti-corporate" movements that claim to restrain them using lobbying and fake grassroots[1][2] campaigns to shape rules that raise costs for smaller rivals and secure more market share. This shouldn’t be surprising. Political competitive advantage is even taught in business schools, as Michael E. Porter explains in Competitive Strategy. The only way to counter it is through competition: support companies that offer substitute services and stop playing into Google’s and Apple’s hands by calling for more regulations. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/30/how-google-and-amazon-bankrolled-a-grassroots-activist-group-of-small-business-owners-to-lobby-against-big-tech-oversight.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/30/how-google-and-amazon-bankro... [2] https://www.iccr.org/resolutions/lobbying-expenditures-disclosure-2/ https://www.iccr.org/resolutions/lobbying-expenditures-discl...