7 ms·

Samsung appliances have among the worst reputations for ease of repair and lifespan. Sadly most other brands are rebrands of Chinese conglomerates or not much b

by Fwirt 1y ago

Samsung appliances have among the worst reputations for ease of repair and lifespan. Sadly most other brands are rebrands of Chinese conglomerates or not much better on the quality chain. But honestly it's also a lottery. We bought a fridge on sale for $500 as an emergency stopover when our expensive fridge was delayed by a month during a move, and it's still plugging along out in the garage, a hostile environment for fridges. All the parts are very accessible too which bodes well for repair, although the leveling feet did snap off. However, when you see the viral videos of "dream fridges" from the 1950s, it's important to remember that adjusted for inflation they would be something like $10k today. Of course they also last 10x as long, but you can still find fridges in that price range today with a similar value proposition. The question is whether or not you're willing to pay that upfront. I think we've all been so conditioned to accept that appliances go obsolete that it doesn't seem possible for a fridge like that to ever pay for itself. It's the boots theory at work.

tempest_ 1y ago
The issue is that the 10k fridge is not actually any better. The "luxury" appliances can be double that and are still shit.
- pixl97 1y ago
  Depends if it's luxury or commercial. Commercial products are generally able to be fixed, but there is a quite a price premium on them.
  - xethos 1y ago
    Commercial and consumer dishwashers are only the same in that they're both called "dishwashers" and use water. The former expect little to no food, have cycles measured in minutes, and run at temperatures that would eat more sensitive dishes alive.
    - potato3732842 1y ago
      You were close. A commercial dishwasher will cut right through amounts of food that a normal residential dishwasher wouldn't touch (pre-wash is more for efficiency and to keep crap from piling up in the bottom tray of the dishwasher) and it will actually be ever so slightly less harsh on whatever goes in it (plastics are the problem mostly) because while it washes and rinses way hotter it doesn't have a stupid heating element that runs to dry things. It will also use fucktons more water and more power and make more noise.
      - xethos 1y ago
        Haven't worked in a commercial kitchen, and I've been wrong before (in this chain, no less), but how would the water be hotter without a heating element? Consumer dishwashers are plumbed into the hot water, so it can't be a difference in a direct hook-up. Without it's own heating element, I wouldn't assume it has its own built-in and ready-on-demand hot water tank, either. My last guess is more frequent cycles, meaning hotter water already at the spigot / dishwasher outlet, similar to the consumer recommendation to run the hot water for a minute prior to starting the dishwasher? Plastics / tupperware were actually what I had in mind lol
        Dylan16807 1y ago
        Some dishwashers blow hot air to dry, some get the rinse water extra hot, some do neither. If they're talking about the water being hotter, but not a "stupid heating element that runs to dry", then it sounds like they mean the hot air.
        lb1lf 1y ago
        At least the commercial ones I've been using on and off do not have a drying cycle at the end of the program; they just steam the heck out of whatever is inside, then once the cycle is through, you are expected to remove the tray with whatever you were washing and let it air dry on the bench. This in contrast to the consumer unit at home which heats the interior of the dishwasher for 45 minutes or so after it has done its washing cycle to dry things while still inside the dishwasher.
  - makeitdouble 1y ago
    Commercial products usually require knowledge (expertise?), and have their own limitations. Even repairability can be an issue in a different way. I don't know for dishwashers, commercial printers are expected to be serviced by the maker or affiliated business and getting parts as a mere peasant can be pretty complex. Surely rich people can just throw money at a contractor, but that's not what we're talking about I think (otherwise having a new one delivered everytime would also just work)
    - pixl97 1y ago
      I mean, repairing anything requires knowledge. The problem with most home devices is they are not repairable at all and you can't get parts. While I'm a computer farmer for my day job, I can repair a vast amount of different devices as long as they don't take specialised equipment like vacuum pumps. And while I don't consider myself a rich person, between my wife and I we're in the higher income brackets in the US, I still service as much of my own stuff as possible. And in general commercial stuff is in the same price ranges as the higher end consumer stuff.
      - brewdad 1y ago
        The good/bad part of modern consumer appliances is that they are largely giant computers with fewer mechanical parts to fail. They can be more reliable but when something breaks, it almost always requires replacing a main board that costs 25-50% of the replacement cost of the entire unit. I've had two boards die on appliances this year. Fortunately, warranty coverage paid for the parts. So now I have a practically new refrigerator and furnace. At least until they fail again in 3-5 years.
- bleomycin 1y ago
  Not quite accurate as a blanket statement. Munro did a very detailed tear down series of a sub zero refrigerator that’s very interesting. Youtube link: https://youtu.be/KAYj6m9QtDU https://youtu.be/KAYj6m9QtDU I wish more content like this existed. It’s the only type of review that is worth paying attention to. Long story short if you live in an energy market like california the energy savings of the sub zero will likely offsets its additions cost over the lifetime of the unit.
  - nradov 1y ago
    It's so crazy that even though California is in some ways the center of the technology universe we have had a dysfunctional electrical grid and market for decades. This has been an ongoing governance failure across multiple administrations and political parties. If we ever want to build stuff here and cut the cost of living then cheaper electrical power is a necessity.
  - hansvm 1y ago
    It's a little funny that, by far, the worst power and internet I've ever had [0], both by cost and by quality, has been in the Bay Area. The easiest way I'm aware of for me to cut my internet bill in half, cut my power bill 4x, have 30 fewer days per year containing electrical outages, and get back up to normal fiber speeds is to move to the Midwest. [0] Excluding anywhere I lived for less than a couple months, like the middle of the Pacific or an exceptionally rough road trip through Wyoming.
    - kstrauser 1y ago
      When was that? Lots of people have solar here, we’ve had maybe 2 power outages for an hour or so in the last decade, and I pay $60 for 10Gbps fiber. Sure, electricity’s cheaper in the Midwest. We’re not exactly deprived of it in the Bay Area though.
      - hansvm 1y ago
        Here and now, for the last nearly a decade. I pay $70/mo for, on a good day, 20Mbps down, 100Kbps up, 400ms ping, with a data cap. I have at least two major power outages each year and dozens of minor incidents (with the general quality -- phase stability, surges, etc being less than elsewhere I've lived even when it's working). Good utilities are localized in the Bay.
- dylan604 1y ago
  The old fridge had much smaller usable volume inside. Modern insulation allows for thinner walls which increases capacity. Same for modern ovens.
- oldpersonintx2 1y ago
  [dead]
thih9 1y ago
> you can still find fridges in that price range today with a similar value proposition Does anyone have examples of consumer fridges like this?
- stock_toaster 1y ago
  sub-zero or thermadore maybe?
  - Retric 1y ago
    Parents have a sub-zero that’s over 20 years old and in good condition, no idea if the new stuff is as well built. Miele still has a good reputation, and you’ll pay for it. https://www.mieleusa.com/category/1022129/refrigerators-and-freezers https://www.mieleusa.com/category/1022129/refrigerators-and-...
- oldpersonintx2 1y ago
  [dead]
- mns 1y ago
  Is Liebherr not a thing in the US? At least in Europe all the Miele fridges are basically Liebherr with different interior setup and the Miele logo slapped on them. No smart things, unless you buy the smart box that you can attach, but otherwise they are quite reliable and solid.
donmcronald 1y ago
I wonder if those expensive fridges are any more serviceable. I'm guessing someone with $10k to spend on a fridge doesn't care how easy it is to fix because they'll never do it.
- jdeibele 1y ago
  I'm not sure about that. The issue that I'm having is that if I could spend $10,000 and not have fridge issues for 10, 15, 20 years I might be tempted. The problem is that there might be problems with the equipment or problems caused by the installer. A few years ago, we ended up replacing a Sub-Zero fridge (27 years old) with another one because the repair bills were mounting. Because of the way the previous owner did the kitchen, using any other kind of fridge other than the 2' deep, 7' high kind would have involved remodeling. It wasn't quite $10k but it was close. At our new house, we had a repairman fix the ice maker in our current fridge. It's 17 years old and could have come off the floor at Best Buy or Home Depot (NOT a Sub-Zero, in other words) but he recommended keeping it until it failed because the quality of current appliances is not as good. Our water heater is going to need to be replaced because it's 17 years old and showing signs that it's getting too old. I want a heat pump water heater because the gas water heater is the only gas-powered appliance we have. Trying to assess reviews of heat pump water heaters and of the local plumbing companies is not fun.
  - yourusername 1y ago
    >I'm not sure about that. The issue that I'm having is that if I could spend $10,000 and not have fridge issues for 10, 15, 20 years I might be tempted. What kind of fridge issues are you having? I just buy a $1000 Miele/Liebherr and it's fine for 10+ years. 0 repairs.
analog31 1y ago
Maybe we need a new boots theory: The rich person buys a $3500 pair of boots that comes with surveillance, useless AI, and bricks itself on the next firmware update. The poor person buys a pair of boots, that are... boots.
- lexszero_ 1y ago
  "You are so poor that when AWS goes down, you still can get into your house" -- seen somewhere
  - amarant 1y ago
    Which phase of capitalism is this? Suffering costs extra, and you'll gladly pay for it!
    - whatshisface 1y ago
      "As the Party slogan put it: ‘Proles and animals are free.’" - 1984
- dylan604 1y ago
  Isn't that reversed now? You can only afford the device that is subsidized by the analytics you will be generating for them while the rich person can afford to by the non-subsidized version.
  - kragen 1y ago
    No, these are US$3500 fridges.
    - technothrasher 1y ago
      $3500 is about 1/3 of the cost of a "rich person" fridge.
      - 1y ago
j1elo 1y ago
I got another way of looking at it: it's not worth it having appliances that last 20 years, because in that time the tech itself can and does improve a lot. Ready example is my aunt: a very good and expensive Miele washing machine, that was made to last as things were before. But now 10 years have elapsed and modern washers come with bigger drums, much lower noises, optimized water and electricity usages, and more effective washing patterns. But she's stuck with her old and trusty one, because she feels that it's working "like new". And she's not wrong, it works well, so it became a sort of a "golden cuff" so to speak (not knowing any better metaphor). So good and expensive, that now getting rid of it for a new one feels like a waste of money for not much gain.
- burnished 1y ago
  That one is sunk cost, I think golden handcuffs are for highly compensated employment.
  - kridsdale3 1y ago
    Sunk Cost is usually something we encourage people to avoid, but in the case of the capital infrastructure of your home, we have to factor depreciation. The aunt is not likely going to re-sell the washer for market value (like a car). It would be recycled when the new more high tech model comes in. A total loss.
- fn-mote 1y ago
  > it's not worth it having appliances that last 20 years Think John Deere tractors as well as adware refrigerators.
- adfm 1y ago
  Maytag/Whirlpool washing machines in the past 10 years come with nylon hubs instead of the metal hubs they used to have. The splines wear out quickly and you’ll need to replace it. Most people will just buy another machine.
- grugagag 1y ago
  She’s not stuck with her appliance unless she has FOMO anxiety, she paid for her appliance once and if it’s still working then all is good. Marginal improvements don’t justify buying the same thing over and over.
zdragnar 1y ago
> rebrands of Chinese conglomerates Eh, I've got a very reasonably priced Haier fridge that I've had no issues with at all. Maybe I'm just lucky, and it definitely helps that there's no built in ice maker or water dispenser (those things seem to break first) but it's lived longer than the refrigerators that the rest of my family have.
techpression 1y ago
Miele did the best advertising ever, and I believe it even got a news story. A woman had been using their washer for 25years and Miele reached out and asked if she wanted a new one for free, for no other reason than to upgrade. Iirc she declined as the one she had worked perfectly. I have a vacuum from them, a cheap model, been working for 12 years so far. It’s probably the only appliance brand I would trust, even if I’m sure they have bad stories too.
comboy 1y ago
Boots theory yes, but there also seem to be a paradox of reliability of cheap things. Manufacturers which are aiming at being dirt cheap and selling lots of products, have low margins and simply cannot afford too many replacements / warranty repairs. High margin products don't care, they could make you three in that price and still be ok.

by Fwirt 1y ago

tempest_ 1y ago

The issue is that the 10k fridge is not actually any better. The "luxury" appliances can be double that and are still shit.

pixl97 1y ago
Depends if it's luxury or commercial. Commercial products are generally able to be fixed, but there is a quite a price premium on them.
- xethos 1y ago
  Commercial and consumer dishwashers are only the same in that they're both called "dishwashers" and use water. The former expect little to no food, have cycles measured in minutes, and run at temperatures that would eat more sensitive dishes alive.
  - potato3732842 1y ago
    You were close. A commercial dishwasher will cut right through amounts of food that a normal residential dishwasher wouldn't touch (pre-wash is more for efficiency and to keep crap from piling up in the bottom tray of the dishwasher) and it will actually be ever so slightly less harsh on whatever goes in it (plastics are the problem mostly) because while it washes and rinses way hotter it doesn't have a stupid heating element that runs to dry things. It will also use fucktons more water and more power and make more noise.
    - xethos 1y ago
      Haven't worked in a commercial kitchen, and I've been wrong before (in this chain, no less), but how would the water be hotter without a heating element? Consumer dishwashers are plumbed into the hot water, so it can't be a difference in a direct hook-up. Without it's own heating element, I wouldn't assume it has its own built-in and ready-on-demand hot water tank, either. My last guess is more frequent cycles, meaning hotter water already at the spigot / dishwasher outlet, similar to the consumer recommendation to run the hot water for a minute prior to starting the dishwasher? Plastics / tupperware were actually what I had in mind lol
      - Dylan16807 1y ago
        Some dishwashers blow hot air to dry, some get the rinse water extra hot, some do neither. If they're talking about the water being hotter, but not a "stupid heating element that runs to dry", then it sounds like they mean the hot air.
      - lb1lf 1y ago
        At least the commercial ones I've been using on and off do not have a drying cycle at the end of the program; they just steam the heck out of whatever is inside, then once the cycle is through, you are expected to remove the tray with whatever you were washing and let it air dry on the bench. This in contrast to the consumer unit at home which heats the interior of the dishwasher for 45 minutes or so after it has done its washing cycle to dry things while still inside the dishwasher.
- makeitdouble 1y ago
  Commercial products usually require knowledge (expertise?), and have their own limitations. Even repairability can be an issue in a different way. I don't know for dishwashers, commercial printers are expected to be serviced by the maker or affiliated business and getting parts as a mere peasant can be pretty complex. Surely rich people can just throw money at a contractor, but that's not what we're talking about I think (otherwise having a new one delivered everytime would also just work)
  - pixl97 1y ago
    I mean, repairing anything requires knowledge. The problem with most home devices is they are not repairable at all and you can't get parts. While I'm a computer farmer for my day job, I can repair a vast amount of different devices as long as they don't take specialised equipment like vacuum pumps. And while I don't consider myself a rich person, between my wife and I we're in the higher income brackets in the US, I still service as much of my own stuff as possible. And in general commercial stuff is in the same price ranges as the higher end consumer stuff.
    - brewdad 1y ago
      The good/bad part of modern consumer appliances is that they are largely giant computers with fewer mechanical parts to fail. They can be more reliable but when something breaks, it almost always requires replacing a main board that costs 25-50% of the replacement cost of the entire unit. I've had two boards die on appliances this year. Fortunately, warranty coverage paid for the parts. So now I have a practically new refrigerator and furnace. At least until they fail again in 3-5 years.
bleomycin 1y ago
Not quite accurate as a blanket statement. Munro did a very detailed tear down series of a sub zero refrigerator that’s very interesting. Youtube link: https://youtu.be/KAYj6m9QtDU https://youtu.be/KAYj6m9QtDU I wish more content like this existed. It’s the only type of review that is worth paying attention to. Long story short if you live in an energy market like california the energy savings of the sub zero will likely offsets its additions cost over the lifetime of the unit.
- nradov 1y ago
  It's so crazy that even though California is in some ways the center of the technology universe we have had a dysfunctional electrical grid and market for decades. This has been an ongoing governance failure across multiple administrations and political parties. If we ever want to build stuff here and cut the cost of living then cheaper electrical power is a necessity.
- hansvm 1y ago
  It's a little funny that, by far, the worst power and internet I've ever had [0], both by cost and by quality, has been in the Bay Area. The easiest way I'm aware of for me to cut my internet bill in half, cut my power bill 4x, have 30 fewer days per year containing electrical outages, and get back up to normal fiber speeds is to move to the Midwest. [0] Excluding anywhere I lived for less than a couple months, like the middle of the Pacific or an exceptionally rough road trip through Wyoming.
  - kstrauser 1y ago
    When was that? Lots of people have solar here, we’ve had maybe 2 power outages for an hour or so in the last decade, and I pay $60 for 10Gbps fiber. Sure, electricity’s cheaper in the Midwest. We’re not exactly deprived of it in the Bay Area though.
    - hansvm 1y ago
      Here and now, for the last nearly a decade. I pay $70/mo for, on a good day, 20Mbps down, 100Kbps up, 400ms ping, with a data cap. I have at least two major power outages each year and dozens of minor incidents (with the general quality -- phase stability, surges, etc being less than elsewhere I've lived even when it's working). Good utilities are localized in the Bay.
dylan604 1y ago
The old fridge had much smaller usable volume inside. Modern insulation allows for thinner walls which increases capacity. Same for modern ovens.
oldpersonintx2 1y ago
[dead]

thih9 1y ago

> you can still find fridges in that price range today with a similar value proposition Does anyone have examples of consumer fridges like this?

stock_toaster 1y ago
sub-zero or thermadore maybe?
- Retric 1y ago
  Parents have a sub-zero that’s over 20 years old and in good condition, no idea if the new stuff is as well built. Miele still has a good reputation, and you’ll pay for it. https://www.mieleusa.com/category/1022129/refrigerators-and-freezers https://www.mieleusa.com/category/1022129/refrigerators-and-...
oldpersonintx2 1y ago
[dead]
mns 1y ago
Is Liebherr not a thing in the US? At least in Europe all the Miele fridges are basically Liebherr with different interior setup and the Miele logo slapped on them. No smart things, unless you buy the smart box that you can attach, but otherwise they are quite reliable and solid.

donmcronald 1y ago

I wonder if those expensive fridges are any more serviceable. I'm guessing someone with $10k to spend on a fridge doesn't care how easy it is to fix because they'll never do it.

jdeibele 1y ago
I'm not sure about that. The issue that I'm having is that if I could spend $10,000 and not have fridge issues for 10, 15, 20 years I might be tempted. The problem is that there might be problems with the equipment or problems caused by the installer. A few years ago, we ended up replacing a Sub-Zero fridge (27 years old) with another one because the repair bills were mounting. Because of the way the previous owner did the kitchen, using any other kind of fridge other than the 2' deep, 7' high kind would have involved remodeling. It wasn't quite $10k but it was close. At our new house, we had a repairman fix the ice maker in our current fridge. It's 17 years old and could have come off the floor at Best Buy or Home Depot (NOT a Sub-Zero, in other words) but he recommended keeping it until it failed because the quality of current appliances is not as good. Our water heater is going to need to be replaced because it's 17 years old and showing signs that it's getting too old. I want a heat pump water heater because the gas water heater is the only gas-powered appliance we have. Trying to assess reviews of heat pump water heaters and of the local plumbing companies is not fun.
- yourusername 1y ago
  >I'm not sure about that. The issue that I'm having is that if I could spend $10,000 and not have fridge issues for 10, 15, 20 years I might be tempted. What kind of fridge issues are you having? I just buy a $1000 Miele/Liebherr and it's fine for 10+ years. 0 repairs.

analog31 1y ago

Maybe we need a new boots theory: The rich person buys a $3500 pair of boots that comes with surveillance, useless AI, and bricks itself on the next firmware update. The poor person buys a pair of boots, that are... boots.

lexszero_ 1y ago
"You are so poor that when AWS goes down, you still can get into your house" -- seen somewhere
- amarant 1y ago
  Which phase of capitalism is this? Suffering costs extra, and you'll gladly pay for it!
  - whatshisface 1y ago
    "As the Party slogan put it: ‘Proles and animals are free.’" - 1984
dylan604 1y ago
Isn't that reversed now? You can only afford the device that is subsidized by the analytics you will be generating for them while the rich person can afford to by the non-subsidized version.
- kragen 1y ago
  No, these are US$3500 fridges.
  - technothrasher 1y ago
    $3500 is about 1/3 of the cost of a "rich person" fridge.
    - 1y ago

j1elo 1y ago

I got another way of looking at it: it's not worth it having appliances that last 20 years, because in that time the tech itself can and does improve a lot. Ready example is my aunt: a very good and expensive Miele washing machine, that was made to last as things were before. But now 10 years have elapsed and modern washers come with bigger drums, much lower noises, optimized water and electricity usages, and more effective washing patterns. But she's stuck with her old and trusty one, because she feels that it's working "like new". And she's not wrong, it works well, so it became a sort of a "golden cuff" so to speak (not knowing any better metaphor). So good and expensive, that now getting rid of it for a new one feels like a waste of money for not much gain.

burnished 1y ago
That one is sunk cost, I think golden handcuffs are for highly compensated employment.
- kridsdale3 1y ago
  Sunk Cost is usually something we encourage people to avoid, but in the case of the capital infrastructure of your home, we have to factor depreciation. The aunt is not likely going to re-sell the washer for market value (like a car). It would be recycled when the new more high tech model comes in. A total loss.
fn-mote 1y ago
> it's not worth it having appliances that last 20 years Think John Deere tractors as well as adware refrigerators.
adfm 1y ago
Maytag/Whirlpool washing machines in the past 10 years come with nylon hubs instead of the metal hubs they used to have. The splines wear out quickly and you’ll need to replace it. Most people will just buy another machine.
grugagag 1y ago
She’s not stuck with her appliance unless she has FOMO anxiety, she paid for her appliance once and if it’s still working then all is good. Marginal improvements don’t justify buying the same thing over and over.

zdragnar 1y ago

> rebrands of Chinese conglomerates Eh, I've got a very reasonably priced Haier fridge that I've had no issues with at all. Maybe I'm just lucky, and it definitely helps that there's no built in ice maker or water dispenser (those things seem to break first) but it's lived longer than the refrigerators that the rest of my family have.

techpression 1y ago

Miele did the best advertising ever, and I believe it even got a news story. A woman had been using their washer for 25years and Miele reached out and asked if she wanted a new one for free, for no other reason than to upgrade. Iirc she declined as the one she had worked perfectly. I have a vacuum from them, a cheap model, been working for 12 years so far. It’s probably the only appliance brand I would trust, even if I’m sure they have bad stories too.

comboy 1y ago

Boots theory yes, but there also seem to be a paradox of reliability of cheap things. Manufacturers which are aiming at being dirt cheap and selling lots of products, have low margins and simply cannot afford too many replacements / warranty repairs. High margin products don't care, they could make you three in that price and still be ok.