7 ms·

Is mass immigration really a crisis? Like people are upset here in the US too but I don't even know why. There's a lot of immigrants in my state but they're not

by bakies 1y ago

Is mass immigration really a crisis? Like people are upset here in the US too but I don't even know why. There's a lot of immigrants in my state but they're not upsetting me.

nine_zeros 1y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
Refreeze5224 1y ago
Absolutely not. They are an essential part of modern American life, and anyone against it either doesn't understand that, or does it for racist reasons.
- travisgriggs 1y ago
  I observe the following. ICE has not caused a huge step change in people leaving the country. If you look at the stats since Reagan (https://infographicsite.com/infographic/deportations-under-us-presidents-statistics/ https://infographicsite.com/infographic/deportations-under-u...), it wanders up and down and is (imo) complicated. What has changed is the “messaging” around the topic. This is very common with the Trump administration. When all is said and done, when exceptions are made/bought, and the courts and others get involved, it ends up not being much of a needle move. BUT, what is different every time is the messaging. And I have come to believe, that is what the actual goal is to some degree. The real goal is to send a message to people who are immigrants OR (and this is important) look like immigrants. It’s a message of “remember your place” and “be grateful you get to be here”. It’s the same type of tactics that gets sent to Asian communities, black communities, women, etc. I am white. I am a male. I am 55. I oscillate between despondently sad and disgusted.
kelnos 1y ago
> Is mass immigration really a crisis? Not even a little bit. No one is taking jobs away from citizens or legal immigrants (locals don't want those jobs, either at all, or at the wages offered), rampant "migrant crime" is a myth created and perpetuated by the right (immigrants commit crime at lower rates than citizens), and to top it off, the American economy depends on many of these migrant workers in order to function (often in exploitative ways; explicitly allowing and supporting this type of migration would make things safer for everyone). It's othering and racism, plain and simple. I'm not saying we should just open the floodgates and let anyone and everyone in, and I'm not saying we shouldn't deport non-citizens who commit violent crime, but the "crisis" is entirely manufactured.
- jonway 1y ago
  >the "crisis" is entirely manufactured. It sure is, the US government has been underfunding the judicial body responsible for adjudicating asylum claims for years and years. As a result there are indeed people here in status limbo. Wether or not they should be granted some kind of residency is kind of irrelevant, politicians are happy for this to be a problem they can use. Even now, they aren’t increasing the rate of process, they’re just blowing the cash on mass surveillance.
  - 20after4 1y ago
    And mass incarceration.
- mixmastamyk 1y ago
  Employed privilege. Lots of folks would like to work in construction but haven’t been able to for a while. I know several that retired early in poverty. I would appreciate a job in construction or at a restaurant for example. Teenagers would benefit from such jobs as well. Not available. Your absolute assertions are myopic at best.
  - dashundchen 1y ago
    Who or what is stopping you from getting a job at a restaurant? Doesn't seem to be a problem with any motivated person I know.
add-sub-mul-div 1y ago
Roughly half the population responds to unfamiliar people and ideas with curiosity, and the other half with fear. The latter half are easily manipulated into nurturing the fear. Everything rolls up to this.
- UberFly 1y ago
  What's your definition of "unfamiliar"? I just want people vetted before they're allowed into my house to live along-side my family? Is that unreasonable?
reactordev 1y ago
The older you are, the more likely you’ll see more people and say “get off my lawn” when really, you were busy hanging plates when the rest of the world was having babies… That’s really what happened. The population doubled in 15 years and people moved (people always move). It’s just more people now. So naturally you’ll see more immigrants.
throwawa14223 1y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
outside1234 1y ago
Not only is it not a crisis but many nations NEED immigration because their natality rates are so low. Including the UK.
- modo_mario 1y ago
  Why would they need them because of that? Must every nations population perpetually go up? Do you know how insane that sounds? Every argument that starts like this ends up defending a pyramid scheme.
  - bakies 1y ago
    I think it's a capitalism thing to need more people
  - outside1234 1y ago
    Pension plans depend on populations being stable and not living longer and longer. Most of Europe have a rate below 2.0 (replacement rate) and people are living longer and longer. So either you increase the retirement age significantly or you have to expand the base.
    - modo_mario 1y ago
      In which case you have to do that indefinitely and it's a pyramid scheme. Also most non eu migration doesn't end up being a net positive for those govs within the first generation (or even second depending). Far from actually and these migrants are not immune to aging then they end up requiring pensions too. And all of this to serve dying generations when those younger than me starting out get ever increasingly shafted. Here in Belgium pension plans existed that did not work like that. Then the socialist raided these funds and the future generations were going to pay for those pensions. My family's criticism was that they could only do that once and they were right. I don't tie this issue to socialists tho. 2 decades ago the liberals(european, right wing) did the same to the railways who had a separate pension fund and more recently yet another party suggested doing the same for a 3rd pillar of selfemployed people.
hereme888 1y ago
It was. Not since Trump took office. It's still a crisis in Europe though.
- bakies 1y ago
  I'm more asking why immigration is a "crisis"?
  - hereme888 1y ago
    Uncontrolled influx of millions - mostly with poor finances and very different cultural backgrounds and values - strain a nation's resources, infrastructure, and social cohesion. It exacerbates housing shortages, burdens public services like healthcare, and contributes to economic friction amid existing downturns. It also poses risks to national identity and security, as we are now experiences in many countries who allowed this to happen, as opposed to countries that enforced legal immigration. It complicates integration and social stability. It's unfair to legal immigrants. This is why sovereign states implement rigorous and dynamic immigration controls and capacity limits based on the nation's ability at the time. There has to be sustainable absorption. Countries are not homeless shelters or free handouts; they are the result of blood and tears of the patriots who fought and died to create, defend, and build that nation. Every nation has its values, and it's not the right choice for everyone. China is definitely not a country for me, nor are the CCP's values acceptable to American culture. In short, vet whoever comes into your house, and don't let people sneak in through the backdoor.
    - bakies 1y ago
      > different cultural backgrounds and values; social cohesion; national identity; integration and social stability; nation has its values; not the right choice for everyone; American culture I like my cultured friends. USA is a melting pot, not a white-man-country. This is all xenophobia. > poor finances sounds right for asylum seekers > nation's resources, infrastructure, housing shortages, burdens public services like healthcare, and contributes to economic friction[??] amid existing downturns, sounds like policy problems; and these are the priorities of the people i vote for too, none of this has to do with immigrants. > Countries are not homeless shelters or free handouts no, this is exactly what i expect my country (government) to handle > Uncontrolled influx of millions this is pretty tightly controlled, you can find the data from the census and see that the population is not at all fluctuating and very linear. Should be trivial to plan ahead about how many people are in the country. https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/usa/united-states/population https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/usa/uni... > This is why sovereign states implement rigorous and dynamic immigration controls and capacity limits based on the nation's ability at the time. There has to be sustainable absorption. vet whoever comes into your house this is true, and I dont believe its not happening. i was asking what is happening that's a crisis. Trump's policies are _mass deportation_. They are extreme. Legal immigrants, are having visas revoked without reason, and even green card holders are being arrested without cause. Violations of the 4th amendment. Immigrants are arrested at court houses, where the vetting takes place, you know, by _judges_. > they are the result of blood and tears of the patriots who fought and died to create, defend, and build that nation. like my immigrant grandpop, achieved the american dream
NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
>There's a lot of immigrants in my state but they're not upsetting me. You might not think that, but have you ever complained about housing prices? That food at the grocery store costs more than it did a few years ago? The price of consumer goods in general? Well, you're not buying those things. You're bidding on them. And the more people there are, here, the higher those prices will be bid upwards.
- mindslight 1y ago
  > That food at the grocery store costs more than it did a few years ago? > the more people there are, here, the higher those prices will be bid upwards Who do you think is picking most of that food? And if the wages for those jobs went up to an American living wage, what do you think would happen to the price of food even with a bit lower demand? I know it's all too easy and comforting to throw out knee-jerk comments cheerleading for government power, but at least try applying some basic analysis to what you write.
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
    >Who do you think is picking most of that food? Your mistake is in believing that even if I answered this question with the answer you consider correct, that this would change my position. >And if the wages for those jobs went up to an American living wage, what do you think would happen to the price of food even with a bit lower demand? "I like to exploit immigrants and underpay them, because my out-of-season fruit will be too high for my smoothy frappucinos!" Silly things leftists say, haha. >I know it's all too easy and comforting to throw out knee-jerk comments cheerleading for government power, I'm not especially a big fan of government power. But I live in a country being held hostage by lunatic ideologues who think non-citizens should have the absolute right to live here, but only because they hope to stack the vote against their political opponents. So there's not really that many options left. Things will have to get far worse before they can get any better.
    - mindslight 1y ago
      > that this would change my position I'm not asking you to change your position, but rather to be honest about the effects of it. > "I like to exploit immigrants and underpay them, because my out-of-season fruit will be too high for my smoothy frappucinos!" I did not say anything of the sort, rather I acknowledged the current reality. One can also say "I want farm workers to be system legible, primarily Americans, and paid a living wage, even though it will make grocery prices go up". That's a consistent position. We can have honest discussions about those things. I don't think anybody actually likes the status quo. > Silly things leftists say, haha I know fascists have defined everything short of gushing praise for Dear Leader as the rAdIcAl lEfT, but I'm actually a libertarian. > I live in a country being held hostage by lunatic ideologues who think non-citizens should have the absolute right to live here Please explain how it's being "held hostage" when the party in power is enacting the exact opposite. > So there's not really that many options left. Things will have to get far worse before they can get any better. Sorry no, there are plenty of other options to institute the immigration policy you want here - which wouldn't require adding to the surveillance pantopticon, further empowering a domestic military, or trampling the Constitution and our natural rights. So what we've actually got is a second issue of how those things are being carried out, supposedly in the name of doing something about immigration. But given how wholly anti-liberty and anti-American those actions are, and how there are already policy floaters on relaxing the hardline stance for "critical" industries reliant on cheap illegal labor, it begs the question of whether the immigration topic is even the main thrust here - or whether it's simply a pretext for autocratic authoritarian power for power's sake. > I'm not especially a big fan of government power Sorry, but yes you are. You're shunning the entire idea of limited constitutional government and inalienable constitutional/natural rights, seemingly because you like these particular results of crass authoritarianism. That's statism 101.

by bakies 1y ago

Is mass immigration really a crisis? Like people are upset here in the US too but I don't even know why. There's a lot of immigrants in my state but they're not upsetting me.

nine_zeros 1y ago

[flagged]

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

Refreeze5224 1y ago

Absolutely not. They are an essential part of modern American life, and anyone against it either doesn't understand that, or does it for racist reasons.

travisgriggs 1y ago
I observe the following. ICE has not caused a huge step change in people leaving the country. If you look at the stats since Reagan (https://infographicsite.com/infographic/deportations-under-us-presidents-statistics/ https://infographicsite.com/infographic/deportations-under-u...), it wanders up and down and is (imo) complicated. What has changed is the “messaging” around the topic. This is very common with the Trump administration. When all is said and done, when exceptions are made/bought, and the courts and others get involved, it ends up not being much of a needle move. BUT, what is different every time is the messaging. And I have come to believe, that is what the actual goal is to some degree. The real goal is to send a message to people who are immigrants OR (and this is important) look like immigrants. It’s a message of “remember your place” and “be grateful you get to be here”. It’s the same type of tactics that gets sent to Asian communities, black communities, women, etc. I am white. I am a male. I am 55. I oscillate between despondently sad and disgusted.

kelnos 1y ago

> Is mass immigration really a crisis? Not even a little bit. No one is taking jobs away from citizens or legal immigrants (locals don't want those jobs, either at all, or at the wages offered), rampant "migrant crime" is a myth created and perpetuated by the right (immigrants commit crime at lower rates than citizens), and to top it off, the American economy depends on many of these migrant workers in order to function (often in exploitative ways; explicitly allowing and supporting this type of migration would make things safer for everyone). It's othering and racism, plain and simple. I'm not saying we should just open the floodgates and let anyone and everyone in, and I'm not saying we shouldn't deport non-citizens who commit violent crime, but the "crisis" is entirely manufactured.

jonway 1y ago
>the "crisis" is entirely manufactured. It sure is, the US government has been underfunding the judicial body responsible for adjudicating asylum claims for years and years. As a result there are indeed people here in status limbo. Wether or not they should be granted some kind of residency is kind of irrelevant, politicians are happy for this to be a problem they can use. Even now, they aren’t increasing the rate of process, they’re just blowing the cash on mass surveillance.
- 20after4 1y ago
  And mass incarceration.
mixmastamyk 1y ago
Employed privilege. Lots of folks would like to work in construction but haven’t been able to for a while. I know several that retired early in poverty. I would appreciate a job in construction or at a restaurant for example. Teenagers would benefit from such jobs as well. Not available. Your absolute assertions are myopic at best.
- dashundchen 1y ago
  Who or what is stopping you from getting a job at a restaurant? Doesn't seem to be a problem with any motivated person I know.

add-sub-mul-div 1y ago

Roughly half the population responds to unfamiliar people and ideas with curiosity, and the other half with fear. The latter half are easily manipulated into nurturing the fear. Everything rolls up to this.

UberFly 1y ago
What's your definition of "unfamiliar"? I just want people vetted before they're allowed into my house to live along-side my family? Is that unreasonable?

reactordev 1y ago

The older you are, the more likely you’ll see more people and say “get off my lawn” when really, you were busy hanging plates when the rest of the world was having babies… That’s really what happened. The population doubled in 15 years and people moved (people always move). It’s just more people now. So naturally you’ll see more immigrants.

throwawa14223 1y ago

[flagged]

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

outside1234 1y ago

Not only is it not a crisis but many nations NEED immigration because their natality rates are so low. Including the UK.

modo_mario 1y ago
Why would they need them because of that? Must every nations population perpetually go up? Do you know how insane that sounds? Every argument that starts like this ends up defending a pyramid scheme.
- bakies 1y ago
  I think it's a capitalism thing to need more people
- outside1234 1y ago
  Pension plans depend on populations being stable and not living longer and longer. Most of Europe have a rate below 2.0 (replacement rate) and people are living longer and longer. So either you increase the retirement age significantly or you have to expand the base.
  - modo_mario 1y ago
    In which case you have to do that indefinitely and it's a pyramid scheme. Also most non eu migration doesn't end up being a net positive for those govs within the first generation (or even second depending). Far from actually and these migrants are not immune to aging then they end up requiring pensions too. And all of this to serve dying generations when those younger than me starting out get ever increasingly shafted. Here in Belgium pension plans existed that did not work like that. Then the socialist raided these funds and the future generations were going to pay for those pensions. My family's criticism was that they could only do that once and they were right. I don't tie this issue to socialists tho. 2 decades ago the liberals(european, right wing) did the same to the railways who had a separate pension fund and more recently yet another party suggested doing the same for a 3rd pillar of selfemployed people.

hereme888 1y ago

It was. Not since Trump took office. It's still a crisis in Europe though.

bakies 1y ago
I'm more asking why immigration is a "crisis"?
- hereme888 1y ago
  Uncontrolled influx of millions - mostly with poor finances and very different cultural backgrounds and values - strain a nation's resources, infrastructure, and social cohesion. It exacerbates housing shortages, burdens public services like healthcare, and contributes to economic friction amid existing downturns. It also poses risks to national identity and security, as we are now experiences in many countries who allowed this to happen, as opposed to countries that enforced legal immigration. It complicates integration and social stability. It's unfair to legal immigrants. This is why sovereign states implement rigorous and dynamic immigration controls and capacity limits based on the nation's ability at the time. There has to be sustainable absorption. Countries are not homeless shelters or free handouts; they are the result of blood and tears of the patriots who fought and died to create, defend, and build that nation. Every nation has its values, and it's not the right choice for everyone. China is definitely not a country for me, nor are the CCP's values acceptable to American culture. In short, vet whoever comes into your house, and don't let people sneak in through the backdoor.
  - bakies 1y ago
    > different cultural backgrounds and values; social cohesion; national identity; integration and social stability; nation has its values; not the right choice for everyone; American culture I like my cultured friends. USA is a melting pot, not a white-man-country. This is all xenophobia. > poor finances sounds right for asylum seekers > nation's resources, infrastructure, housing shortages, burdens public services like healthcare, and contributes to economic friction[??] amid existing downturns, sounds like policy problems; and these are the priorities of the people i vote for too, none of this has to do with immigrants. > Countries are not homeless shelters or free handouts no, this is exactly what i expect my country (government) to handle > Uncontrolled influx of millions this is pretty tightly controlled, you can find the data from the census and see that the population is not at all fluctuating and very linear. Should be trivial to plan ahead about how many people are in the country. https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/usa/united-states/population https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/usa/uni... > This is why sovereign states implement rigorous and dynamic immigration controls and capacity limits based on the nation's ability at the time. There has to be sustainable absorption. vet whoever comes into your house this is true, and I dont believe its not happening. i was asking what is happening that's a crisis. Trump's policies are _mass deportation_. They are extreme. Legal immigrants, are having visas revoked without reason, and even green card holders are being arrested without cause. Violations of the 4th amendment. Immigrants are arrested at court houses, where the vetting takes place, you know, by _judges_. > they are the result of blood and tears of the patriots who fought and died to create, defend, and build that nation. like my immigrant grandpop, achieved the american dream

NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago

>There's a lot of immigrants in my state but they're not upsetting me. You might not think that, but have you ever complained about housing prices? That food at the grocery store costs more than it did a few years ago? The price of consumer goods in general? Well, you're not buying those things. You're bidding on them. And the more people there are, here, the higher those prices will be bid upwards.

mindslight 1y ago
> That food at the grocery store costs more than it did a few years ago? > the more people there are, here, the higher those prices will be bid upwards Who do you think is picking most of that food? And if the wages for those jobs went up to an American living wage, what do you think would happen to the price of food even with a bit lower demand? I know it's all too easy and comforting to throw out knee-jerk comments cheerleading for government power, but at least try applying some basic analysis to what you write.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
  >Who do you think is picking most of that food? Your mistake is in believing that even if I answered this question with the answer you consider correct, that this would change my position. >And if the wages for those jobs went up to an American living wage, what do you think would happen to the price of food even with a bit lower demand? "I like to exploit immigrants and underpay them, because my out-of-season fruit will be too high for my smoothy frappucinos!" Silly things leftists say, haha. >I know it's all too easy and comforting to throw out knee-jerk comments cheerleading for government power, I'm not especially a big fan of government power. But I live in a country being held hostage by lunatic ideologues who think non-citizens should have the absolute right to live here, but only because they hope to stack the vote against their political opponents. So there's not really that many options left. Things will have to get far worse before they can get any better.
  - mindslight 1y ago
    > that this would change my position I'm not asking you to change your position, but rather to be honest about the effects of it. > "I like to exploit immigrants and underpay them, because my out-of-season fruit will be too high for my smoothy frappucinos!" I did not say anything of the sort, rather I acknowledged the current reality. One can also say "I want farm workers to be system legible, primarily Americans, and paid a living wage, even though it will make grocery prices go up". That's a consistent position. We can have honest discussions about those things. I don't think anybody actually likes the status quo. > Silly things leftists say, haha I know fascists have defined everything short of gushing praise for Dear Leader as the rAdIcAl lEfT, but I'm actually a libertarian. > I live in a country being held hostage by lunatic ideologues who think non-citizens should have the absolute right to live here Please explain how it's being "held hostage" when the party in power is enacting the exact opposite. > So there's not really that many options left. Things will have to get far worse before they can get any better. Sorry no, there are plenty of other options to institute the immigration policy you want here - which wouldn't require adding to the surveillance pantopticon, further empowering a domestic military, or trampling the Constitution and our natural rights. So what we've actually got is a second issue of how those things are being carried out, supposedly in the name of doing something about immigration. But given how wholly anti-liberty and anti-American those actions are, and how there are already policy floaters on relaxing the hardline stance for "critical" industries reliant on cheap illegal labor, it begs the question of whether the immigration topic is even the main thrust here - or whether it's simply a pretext for autocratic authoritarian power for power's sake. > I'm not especially a big fan of government power Sorry, but yes you are. You're shunning the entire idea of limited constitutional government and inalienable constitutional/natural rights, seemingly because you like these particular results of crass authoritarianism. That's statism 101.