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Is it outrageous to think that eventually this "gas" will be free because outlets will compete to have Tesla and other electric customers stuck at their restaur

by jerrya 14y ago

Is it outrageous to think that eventually this "gas" will be free because outlets will compete to have Tesla and other electric customers stuck at their restaurant, bar, store for a half hour?

ph0rque 14y ago
Another possible revenue stream is free for Tesla owners, and not free for other electric cars that support the "nozzle" (if Tesla allows others to use the same nozzle design).
- sbierwagen 14y ago
  The connector on the vehicle is proprietary, but there's an OEM adapter to use SAE J1772 connectors. (like the charging station near Google Kirkland: http://tmblr.co/ZStnmwKlXAF8 http://tmblr.co/ZStnmwKlXAF8 )
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
    - sbierwagen 14y ago
      Yes, the J1772 connector has a data pin. The Tesla Roadster can negotiate charge rate: http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster/charging/j1772-mobile-connector http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster/charging/j1772-mobile-co...
- richardw 14y ago
  If Tesla doesn't let others to use their connector, they're doing themselves a huge dis-service. We need to start off with one standard. Imagine if every petrol station had connectors for different cars, or you had to look for a special station that fit your car? Nightmare.
  - kamaal 14y ago
    >>If Tesla doesn't let others to use their connector It must be the other way around. If you want free power, design your car to use their connector standards.
    - richardw 14y ago
      Well, you can't get the free power if Tesla legally prevents you from using the connector because they're looking to create a near-term advantage. That's the key. My comment was that Tesla would be harming themselves by not allowing others to use it. Others would come up with a standard and now you'd have all these Tesla vehicles with a non-standard connector.
      - stcredzero 14y ago
        > Well, you can't get the free power if Tesla legally prevents you from using the connector because they're looking to create a near-term advantage. That's the key. If I were running Tesla, I'd let my competitors' cars come and charge at the station, then sell them lunch and snacks.
spullara 14y ago
That is actually pretty insightful — pretty easy to get back the $3 that it costs. I can definitely see "free charge with purchase".
- Osiris 14y ago
  At $0.11/kWh, the Roadster at 53kWh would take almost $6 to completely fill. Though if these stations charge using solar power and store the power in a battery pack to discharge when a car hooks up, it could potentially cost them a lot less than $0.11/kWh, depending on the cost of building the station itself.
  - tjoff 14y ago
    Solar will hardly be efficient enough, unless you'd have a whole solar farm beside each station... Also add maintenance of all those batteries and I bet you'd have a really hard time to motivate solar for economical reasons.
    - veemjeem 14y ago
      I doubt those stations will store the power locally. My bet is that the solar system pumps power into the grid during the day, generating $$ for tesla. Then in the night, it draws from the grid since power is cheaper then anyway.
    - vidarh 14y ago
      According to the article it sounds like the devices are hooked up to the grid, but use solar effectively to offset the cost - Musk claim they will feed more energy into the grid than they'll take out while charging cars.
      - JoeAltmaier 14y ago
        The solar component is a stunt. Electricity is fungible. How about putting the solar plants where they work well (mountaintop? desert?) and the charging stations can just hook to the grid. Then they can get their electricity from any convenient source (local nuke plant for instance). The argument about 'free solar' is almost an oxymoron. That electricity costs more per kwh than most any other source.
alexholehouse 14y ago
I remember talking to a friend who worked for an oil company, who told me that the shops at gas stations actually make 2-3 times more than the revenue generated from the gas. If you were an oil company which dealt exclusively with the consumer (which of course non of them are) you would in fact be a catering business which sold gas on the side.
- Danieru 14y ago
  Slight pedantry note: revenue and earnings are not the same thing.
  - tdfx 14y ago
    I think he had them backwards -- I've heard similar stories from others who own gas stations. Gas makes up a substantial portion of their revenue, but the margins are so thin that most of the profit comes from the food and retail services.
    - kamaal 14y ago
      So basically gas stations are just an excuse to do other business?
      - nicholassmith 14y ago
        Pretty much, depending on their location often people pulling in to refuel are a captive market.
        385668 14y ago
        And why convenience stores in Japan (and other places, I assume, though I haven't seen them) frequently sell the same kinds of merchandise as gas stations do in the US, but most don't sell gas because the margins are so small, the pedestrian market smaller, and real estate so expensive.
- mistercow 14y ago
kamaal 14y ago
Its not. But at the most this is change in the revenue model for 'gas/electric' stations or whatever you would like to call it. But at the present and things as they stay, no body is likely to compete with Tesla. They are only having this network so as to ensure people can roam around without having to worry about running out of fuel. Tesla itself may not offer free energy once their user base grows to a substantial amount. This is a incentive to get users to buys their cars, not a free energy give away drive. Once they have substantial customer base, free market dynamics will take care of the energy supply.
jnhnum1 14y ago
On the other hand, it could also end up like hotel phone calls or wine uncorking fees - ridiculously expensive just for a convenience.
samstave 14y ago
Well, honestly, offsetting the expense from "gas" to whatever products/entertainment/services/food that will be available is farking FANTASTIC. Its not like they will be forced to buy whatever is in these stops - but the fact that the consumer can now actually CHOOSE what to spend those funds on is wonderful. I HATE BUYING GAS I currently don't drive at all (I bike to bart and bart to work) - and my car had its starter go out, so I haven't even been inside a car in more than a month. I have always hated buying gas - I feel like I am being extorted every single time (and yes, I still harbor a grudge against bush/cheney whom I feel is largely responsible for this situation - whether this is unfounded blame or not, I still feel good about it :) )

by jerrya 14y ago

Is it outrageous to think that eventually this "gas" will be free because outlets will compete to have Tesla and other electric customers stuck at their restaurant, bar, store for a half hour?

ph0rque 14y ago

Another possible revenue stream is free for Tesla owners, and not free for other electric cars that support the "nozzle" (if Tesla allows others to use the same nozzle design).

sbierwagen 14y ago
The connector on the vehicle is proprietary, but there's an OEM adapter to use SAE J1772 connectors. (like the charging station near Google Kirkland: http://tmblr.co/ZStnmwKlXAF8 http://tmblr.co/ZStnmwKlXAF8 )
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
  - sbierwagen 14y ago
    Yes, the J1772 connector has a data pin. The Tesla Roadster can negotiate charge rate: http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster/charging/j1772-mobile-connector http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster/charging/j1772-mobile-co...
richardw 14y ago
If Tesla doesn't let others to use their connector, they're doing themselves a huge dis-service. We need to start off with one standard. Imagine if every petrol station had connectors for different cars, or you had to look for a special station that fit your car? Nightmare.
- kamaal 14y ago
  >>If Tesla doesn't let others to use their connector It must be the other way around. If you want free power, design your car to use their connector standards.
  - richardw 14y ago
    Well, you can't get the free power if Tesla legally prevents you from using the connector because they're looking to create a near-term advantage. That's the key. My comment was that Tesla would be harming themselves by not allowing others to use it. Others would come up with a standard and now you'd have all these Tesla vehicles with a non-standard connector.
    - stcredzero 14y ago
      > Well, you can't get the free power if Tesla legally prevents you from using the connector because they're looking to create a near-term advantage. That's the key. If I were running Tesla, I'd let my competitors' cars come and charge at the station, then sell them lunch and snacks.

spullara 14y ago

That is actually pretty insightful — pretty easy to get back the $3 that it costs. I can definitely see "free charge with purchase".

Osiris 14y ago
At $0.11/kWh, the Roadster at 53kWh would take almost $6 to completely fill. Though if these stations charge using solar power and store the power in a battery pack to discharge when a car hooks up, it could potentially cost them a lot less than $0.11/kWh, depending on the cost of building the station itself.
- tjoff 14y ago
  Solar will hardly be efficient enough, unless you'd have a whole solar farm beside each station... Also add maintenance of all those batteries and I bet you'd have a really hard time to motivate solar for economical reasons.
  - veemjeem 14y ago
    I doubt those stations will store the power locally. My bet is that the solar system pumps power into the grid during the day, generating $$ for tesla. Then in the night, it draws from the grid since power is cheaper then anyway.
  - vidarh 14y ago
    According to the article it sounds like the devices are hooked up to the grid, but use solar effectively to offset the cost - Musk claim they will feed more energy into the grid than they'll take out while charging cars.
    - JoeAltmaier 14y ago
      The solar component is a stunt. Electricity is fungible. How about putting the solar plants where they work well (mountaintop? desert?) and the charging stations can just hook to the grid. Then they can get their electricity from any convenient source (local nuke plant for instance). The argument about 'free solar' is almost an oxymoron. That electricity costs more per kwh than most any other source.

alexholehouse 14y ago

I remember talking to a friend who worked for an oil company, who told me that the shops at gas stations actually make 2-3 times more than the revenue generated from the gas. If you were an oil company which dealt exclusively with the consumer (which of course non of them are) you would in fact be a catering business which sold gas on the side.

Danieru 14y ago
Slight pedantry note: revenue and earnings are not the same thing.
- tdfx 14y ago
  I think he had them backwards -- I've heard similar stories from others who own gas stations. Gas makes up a substantial portion of their revenue, but the margins are so thin that most of the profit comes from the food and retail services.
  - kamaal 14y ago
    So basically gas stations are just an excuse to do other business?
    - nicholassmith 14y ago
      Pretty much, depending on their location often people pulling in to refuel are a captive market.
      - 385668 14y ago
        And why convenience stores in Japan (and other places, I assume, though I haven't seen them) frequently sell the same kinds of merchandise as gas stations do in the US, but most don't sell gas because the margins are so small, the pedestrian market smaller, and real estate so expensive.
mistercow 14y ago

kamaal 14y ago

Its not. But at the most this is change in the revenue model for 'gas/electric' stations or whatever you would like to call it. But at the present and things as they stay, no body is likely to compete with Tesla. They are only having this network so as to ensure people can roam around without having to worry about running out of fuel. Tesla itself may not offer free energy once their user base grows to a substantial amount. This is a incentive to get users to buys their cars, not a free energy give away drive. Once they have substantial customer base, free market dynamics will take care of the energy supply.

jnhnum1 14y ago

On the other hand, it could also end up like hotel phone calls or wine uncorking fees - ridiculously expensive just for a convenience.

samstave 14y ago

Well, honestly, offsetting the expense from "gas" to whatever products/entertainment/services/food that will be available is farking FANTASTIC. Its not like they will be forced to buy whatever is in these stops - but the fact that the consumer can now actually CHOOSE what to spend those funds on is wonderful. I HATE BUYING GAS I currently don't drive at all (I bike to bart and bart to work) - and my car had its starter go out, so I haven't even been inside a car in more than a month. I have always hated buying gas - I feel like I am being extorted every single time (and yes, I still harbor a grudge against bush/cheney whom I feel is largely responsible for this situation - whether this is unfounded blame or not, I still feel good about it :) )