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Dutch spy services have restricted intelligence-sharing with the United States

311 points by Refreeze5224 1y ago

jacquesm 1y ago
The current dutch (demissionary) PM is the former head of the Dutch intelligence services. To say that Trump isn't trusted by EU intelligence services would be a vast understatement.
- michelb 1y ago
  Well, that's the same guy that planted Palantir in the Dutch government, since 2011.
  - jacquesm 1y ago
    Yes, so? Indeed, that wasn't a great decision. But... there is a serious lack of alternatives that makes it very hard to get around the United States and Israel when it comes to this kind of software. Of course the Dutch should have rolled their own but give that we can't even get our tax software sorted out (I think they've been at it for 30 years), had our digital notary services hacked and a number of other noteworthy items I think that maybe 'buy' instead of 'build' was the right decision. It's very tricky, I would definitely not be able to claim that in his shoes I would have done better. As a prime minister he's done a fair job given the absolutely impossible situation in our government right now, and this decision is one of those where at least he's willing to make a stand (unlike many other EU countries). This level of governing is always going to be an exercise in endless compromises.
  - XorNot 1y ago
    Palantir might be an American company, but if you hire them it's not like a bunch of Americans come and take over your IT systems. There entire business model is "forward deployed engineers" who by necessity are locals and come help setup things on your own infrastructure.
    - red-iron-pine 1y ago
      unless those engineers know about, and can shut off, backdoors in code, then their locality is meaningless. 10 guys in Northern VA are making those calls, not the forward deployed engineers and not your infra. palantir dials home at some point to verify a license, right?
      - XorNot 1y ago
        It does not. In fact most of the big enterprise software doesn't because enterprise won't allow it, or it's running airgapped. Enterprise software is licensed based on support contracts and audits. "trust" is actually more present because a large company or the government can't just vanish if they're in license compliance breach and can later be sued to recover costs. This is basically Oracle and IBMs business model: let people install whatever they want, then request a spot check if usage and discover the license breaches which can be rectified by buying more of whatever now that it's business critical.
        AndriyKunitsyn 1y ago
        I have never been a big enterprise integrator, and I thought exactly like this. Then in 2024 the CrowdStrike BSOD screw up happened, and I was surprised to learn that no, not everything is airgapped. Apparently, businesses are okay with untrusted, unvetted, self-updating pieces of code that run in kernel mode.
        u_sama 1y ago
        From my experience in Europe, this comes to being the least bad choice amongst a large series of bad choices. They install CrowdStrike in legacy devices running in critical industries like manufacturing because a lot of devices are legacy (think Windows 2000 and XP in 2025) which cannot be changed because either the company is bankrupt, the machine change would cost millions or the company is strapped for cash and/or labor to actually update all of the necessary (and not supported) industrial computers. This + corporate shit policies from departents disconnected from the needs on the terrain.
  - crimsoneer 1y ago
    Palantir installing their kit on your on prem network doesn't give them anymore magical ability to exfiltrate data than installing Microsoft office would.
- throwawayq3423 1y ago
  > To say that Trump isn't trusted by EU intelligence services would be a vast understatement. Trump isn't trusted by any intelligence service, but seems to only publicly distrust his own ones.
josefritzishere 1y ago
I think we all know whose fault that is.
- stronglikedan 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - Fnoord 1y ago
    It is a two-way system, and this article is about the information flow from NL to USA.
  - TylerE 1y ago
    It's probably the guy who has repeatedly and publically stepped on every rake, over and over again.
    - stronglikedan 1y ago
      Biden's been out of office for a while now.
  - crote 1y ago
    The original interview clearly states that the US can no longer be trusted to do the right thing with data concerning Russia, and the spy services explicitly say that they are keeping a close eye on the potential of intelligence being politicized or used to violate human rights. There is no need to guess why that is the case, it is painfully obvious to anyone paying even the slightest attention to US politics. Regarding "their loss": the self-destruction of the US on the international stage is directly leading to a "massive scale-up" of the way various European agencies work together. If anything, I'd call that a win.
    - lenerdenator 1y ago
      > Regarding "their loss": the self-destruction of the US on the international stage is directly leading to a "massive scale-up" of the way various European agencies work together. If anything, I'd call that a win. It's going to take time and resources to match what any sort of "lost" cooperation with the US had, assuming they even can match the capabilities. That's a naturally bad thing for intelligence agencies in the interim.
Covzire 1y ago
[flagged]
- Covzire 1y ago
  Seriously though, the article doesn't say why they're more "critical" but say that intel sharing remains "excellent". That's a lot of words without saying anything, these kinds of articles are fantastic for one thing and one thing only: reinforcing pre-existing beliefs.
  - Deukhoofd 1y ago
    The article they cite from De Volkskrant does mention the reasoning why some information is being restricted; the politicizing of information, and the violation of human rights. https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/nederlandse-diensten-delen-minder-informatie-met-de-vs-soms-vertellen-we-dingen-niet-meer~b4882f19/ https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/nederlandse-diensten-de...
    - Covzire 1y ago
      That's a paywall, and I don't speak Dutch, what precisely are the human rights violations they're accusing the US of? And these kinds of accusations go both ways, free-speech is under constant attack in the EU, the ruling class doesn't want citizens informed or even able to inform one another of critical political processes and actions without their thumbs in everyone's mouth, that much is clear.
      - Deukhoofd 1y ago
        They're very careful in not making any real political statements, which makes sense considering it's the heads of both the military intelligence service and general intelligence service. Here's the relevant quotes thrown through Google Translate: *Are you more cautious about sharing certain information?* Reesink: “I can’t comment on what that relationship is like now compared to before. But it’s true that we make that assessment and sometimes don’t share things anymore.” *That’s a striking shift. What has been the most important change?* Akerboom: “We don’t judge what we see politically, but we look at our experiences with the services. And we are very alert to the politicization of our intelligence and to human rights violations.” *What does it mean in practice if there are risks in those areas?* Akerboom: “Sometimes you have to consider each case individually: can I still share this information or not?”
OutOfHere 1y ago
It would be glorious to see Five Eyes fall apart, but that is much bigger ask. Canada would be wise to kick it off before the US annexes it.
- psunavy03 1y ago
  Because what we all need is to see the Ministry of State Security be the most capable intelligence agency in the world . . . wait, no we don't.
  - Alive-in-2025 1y ago
    Russia and China still exist and are pre-eminent dangers. The US has gone crazy but we still need to work together to discourage wars related to invading taiwan or Europe. I am terrified the US won't come back to being an actual democracy that follows the rule of law. At the same time, we can just stop surveilling our citizens in the democratic free world. We can just decide to do that.
    - OutOfHere 1y ago
      The main danger is not Russia and China - it is us. Why? Because we actively stop big tech from developing and deploying cybersecurity solutions to protect billions of people. Why? Because we want us and Israel to be able to hack their systems, just not Russia and China. We want it both ways, to develop the most defensible and the most vulnerable system, and this is why we can never win. This self-incompatible ask will be our collective undoing. Also, if you think the US was a proper democracy, I have news for you - it wasn't. It has been an alternating two-party system that prevents the system from evolving beyond its current state. In a real democracy, information from the voter would be maximized, the first result of which would be to transform it beyond a rigid two-party system. The voting system would not be first-past-the-post. Superior forms of voting such as Ranked Choice and Range Voting would not be banned as they are in numerous red states; they would be welcomed. People would not be denied the right to vote. Gerrymandering wouldn't be a thing. Wake up and see the truth for the darkness it is.
michelb 1y ago
The USA probably doesn't worry much, our Dutch government and related services all run on AWS and Microsoft Office/Azure. All internet access flows through the same cable the NSA has access to. Radio traffic is intercepted in multiple locations in The Netherlands. So sure, there are probably some signals the USA won't receive, but they still get the bulk of it.
- crote 1y ago
  > our Dutch government and related services all run on AWS and Microsoft Office/Azure And this is already being criticized over and over again. With various German government organizations now actively moving away from Microsoft and demonstrating that you don't need Outlook & Office 365 to run a government, I would be quite surprised if the possibility of doing the same here won't at least be discussed any time something needs an overhaul.
  - jeroenhd 1y ago
    As with every large Microsoft migration, the problem isn't figuring out what's necessary to run a government. People in high places only know Microsoft and they don't want to risk having to learn something new. National security isn't as big of a deal as having to spend a few afternoons of training, after all.
    - jll29 1y ago
      It's easy enough to wrap some open source software in GUIs that closely resemble proprietary software (cf. LibreOffice as an example).
    - crote 1y ago
      People in high places have assistants to operate Word for them. If anything, the money Microsoft pours into lobbying is a bigger threat to gaining independence - the killing of the LiMux project[0] made that quite obvious. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux
crises-luff-6b 1y ago
[dead]
howmayiannoyyou 1y ago
Tensions in Venezuela and Dutch interests in the Caribbean. That's the explanation and its public posturing that likely doesn't reflect reality.
- crote 1y ago
  The Dutch governments haven't exactly shown a lot of interest into their Caribbean links over the last few decades. The actions of the US regarding Venezuela are barely getting mentioned in the Dutch news, and the physical proximity to Aruba/Bonaire/Curacao is not even mentioned in passing.
  - clydethefrog 1y ago
    The government-funded news was surprisingly open about it two months ago: Many residents would rather see the American ships leave than arrive. Curaçao traditionally maintains close ties with Venezuela, and residents fear the island will be drawn into a geopolitical conflict. [...] The Dutch government determines the course in these areas under pressure from Washington, while Curaçao itself has little influence. https://nos.nl/artikel/2580380-curacao-voelt-spanning-tussen-vs-en-venezuela-van-dichtbij https://nos.nl/artikel/2580380-curacao-voelt-spanning-tussen...
lenerdenator 1y ago
Everything's for sale. The Dutch were still buying natural gas from Russia as late as 2020 [0] despite 6 years of irregular warfare in the Donbas at that point and 12 years of South Ossetia in Georgia. Hell, they still might be through some sort of third-party reseller. Compared to the early years of the Donbas invasion, having a leader full of hot air is small potatoes. There's always room for spies to get what they want. It's just a matter of what that will be. [0] https://www.gasunie.nl/en/gas-infrastructure/blog-247-energy/where-does-our-natural-gas-come-from https://www.gasunie.nl/en/gas-infrastructure/blog-247-energy...
- crote 1y ago
  The main reason for the Dutch dependence on Russian gas is the rapid shutdown of the Slochteren field for political reasons[0], while there weren't yet any LNG terminals available to import it from outside Europe. Considering Europe didn't yet view Russia as a genuine threat it's not exactly surprising that importing Russian gas was seen as a viable short-term strategy. [0]: The Slochteren field still has plenty of gas remaining. It was shut down due to pushback from the inhabitants of Groningen, whose houses were being destroyed by earthquakes - caused by soil subsidence as a result of gas extraction. If there were to have been a serious war with Russia at that point, The Netherlands could've trivially shut off all gas imports by scaling the extraction back up.
  - mschuster91 1y ago
    The Dutch did extend Groningen for a time after the Russians invaded Ukraine. The problem with earthquakes is no one wants to be held accountable when a house is destroyed and people die.
  - lenerdenator 1y ago
    The point isn't about the potential for future production of natural gas or other petrochemical products from Slochteren. The point is that Europeans regularly participate in dealings with countries that act against their best interests on a regular basis, and that there's no real reason to believe that the Dutch will behave any differently with Trump. > Considering Europe didn't yet view Russia as a genuine threat it's not exactly surprising that importing Russian gas was seen as a viable short-term strategy. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Everything should have told Europeans that Russia was reverting back to its old autocratic imperial ways. Everything. Ukrainian politicians and internal dissidents were being poisoned with dioxins and radioisotopes almost 20 years ago by Russian agents. Putin was stacking on more and more repression as the years went by. Hacking campaigns have been a constant problem in the West for decades with strong evidence to suggest the Russian government as a threat actor. The Russian military was building weapons specifically designed to counter NATO, which is the backbone of strategic defense in Europe. And that's before you take into account things like the South Ossetia war which saw the Russians literally invade another country for wanting to move towards a Western sphere of influence. What was funding all of this? Purchases of Russian petroleum products by Europeans who were told over and over to stop by American allies, only to be caught with their flies unzipped when the tanks started rolling into the Donbas three years ago. I have no reason to think that the continent will behave any differently when faced with a Trump administration that would give them benefits to look the other way. The damage he could do to the continent is insignificant compared to what Putin did.
IT4MD 1y ago
Smart move.
aa_is_op 1y ago
Well... taking into account that Trump was screaming and swearing at Zelenskyy to surrender to Russia or Putin will destroy Ukraine just yesterday... I don't see why the Dutch would stop sharing intel with the US </sarcasm>
- jay_kyburz 1y ago
  Where did you see this? I haven't read that anywhere.
  - Refreeze5224 1y ago
    https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2025/10/19/8003438/ https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2025/10/19/8003438/
    - jay_kyburz 1y ago
      thanks
- throwawayq3423 1y ago
  I genuinely don't understand why Trump doing whatever Putin says, every time, is not a bigger deal in American politics. I've never seen one human being own another human being so completely yet it seems to be a complete non-story.
MiiMe19 1y ago
Am I the only one that doesn't really think of most of Europe as an ally anymore? If it wasn't for shared opposition to Russia and China I would support us cutting most of these ties anyways.
- null_deref 1y ago
  Why?
  - MiiMe19 1y ago
    Different ideas on economics (socialism vs capitalism) and personal freedoms, lack of a shared cultural background anymore, etc.
    - alpineman 1y ago
      Europe is also capitalist. The last time I checked we had stock exchanges, corporations, and private property laws.
    - hjort-e 1y ago
      What countries in Europe are not capitalist? Genuine question. And who has less personal freedoms in your opinion?
    - twixfel 1y ago
      This is just American nonsense. Literally every single country in Europe is capitalist. Socialism is the democratic ownership of the means of production. Nowhere do we have that in Europe. Frankly this is the real problem with America, about half the population are extremely poorly educated and yet extremely arrogant. A deadly combination, clearly, as it’s led to the very sudden decline and fall of the American Empire.
      - MiiMe19 1y ago
        [flagged]
unit149 1y ago
[dead]
Icingdeath 1y ago
Is it fair to say the US has been a bit erratic lately? Seems to me its hard to maintain trust in these circumstances.
- stronglikedan 1y ago
  > Is it fair to say the US has been a bit erratic lately? More than usual? Not really
- throwawayq3423 1y ago
  Yes, Americans made the mistake of electing somebody that doesn't believe in stepping down peacefully if he loses an election, among other things.
  - RandomBacon 1y ago
    > doesn't believe in stepping down peacefully if he loses an election, among other things. Source? We do have evidence that he stepped down after his first term.
    - mechatrocity 1y ago
      Certainly not peacefully.
      - RandomBacon 1y ago
        Forgive me, I don't pay attention to the national news that much, what did I miss when Trump left the Whitehouse for Biden? Edit: I know about January 6th, I thought OP was talking about something else, my mistake.
        valiant55 1y ago
        Incited a riot to interrupt the certification of the election with ~500 individuals resulting in the deaths of a few individuals and hundreds of convictions. Most notable Trump did not face prosecution.
bamboozled 1y ago
Good
ElevenLathe 1y ago
> ...inter-agency relations between Dutch and American intelligence organizations remain “excellent”. While I highly doubt that Dutch Intelligence is significantly more accountable tothat the American ones are, and therefore don't assume that any meaningful intelligence will actually be withheld (or at least, if is being withheld, it isn't because of the decision being discussed in this piece), BUT it is at least interesting that they made this announcement, which suggests some element somewhere in the European deep state is at least trying to pressure Washington in some way.
- ant6n 1y ago
  “The European Deep State”?
  - ElevenLathe 1y ago
    You think they don't have one too?
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
alliao 1y ago
so they say.. perhaps they detected leaks and just doing some a/b testing now
escanda 1y ago
Trump is widely adopted around intel services; at least in Spain.
mmonaghan 1y ago
Dramatic headline. They're probably not sharing Ukraine-specific planning info but will continue sharing everything else. My theory is that they can't trust Trump to keep Ukraine stuff secret and I agree with them.

311 points by Refreeze5224 1y ago

The current dutch (demissionary) PM is the former head of the Dutch intelligence services. To say that Trump isn't trusted by EU intelligence services would be a vast understatement.

michelb 1y ago
Well, that's the same guy that planted Palantir in the Dutch government, since 2011.
- jacquesm 1y ago
  Yes, so? Indeed, that wasn't a great decision. But... there is a serious lack of alternatives that makes it very hard to get around the United States and Israel when it comes to this kind of software. Of course the Dutch should have rolled their own but give that we can't even get our tax software sorted out (I think they've been at it for 30 years), had our digital notary services hacked and a number of other noteworthy items I think that maybe 'buy' instead of 'build' was the right decision. It's very tricky, I would definitely not be able to claim that in his shoes I would have done better. As a prime minister he's done a fair job given the absolutely impossible situation in our government right now, and this decision is one of those where at least he's willing to make a stand (unlike many other EU countries). This level of governing is always going to be an exercise in endless compromises.
- XorNot 1y ago
  Palantir might be an American company, but if you hire them it's not like a bunch of Americans come and take over your IT systems. There entire business model is "forward deployed engineers" who by necessity are locals and come help setup things on your own infrastructure.
  - red-iron-pine 1y ago
    unless those engineers know about, and can shut off, backdoors in code, then their locality is meaningless. 10 guys in Northern VA are making those calls, not the forward deployed engineers and not your infra. palantir dials home at some point to verify a license, right?
    - XorNot 1y ago
      It does not. In fact most of the big enterprise software doesn't because enterprise won't allow it, or it's running airgapped. Enterprise software is licensed based on support contracts and audits. "trust" is actually more present because a large company or the government can't just vanish if they're in license compliance breach and can later be sued to recover costs. This is basically Oracle and IBMs business model: let people install whatever they want, then request a spot check if usage and discover the license breaches which can be rectified by buying more of whatever now that it's business critical.
      - AndriyKunitsyn 1y ago
        I have never been a big enterprise integrator, and I thought exactly like this. Then in 2024 the CrowdStrike BSOD screw up happened, and I was surprised to learn that no, not everything is airgapped. Apparently, businesses are okay with untrusted, unvetted, self-updating pieces of code that run in kernel mode.
        u_sama 1y ago
        From my experience in Europe, this comes to being the least bad choice amongst a large series of bad choices. They install CrowdStrike in legacy devices running in critical industries like manufacturing because a lot of devices are legacy (think Windows 2000 and XP in 2025) which cannot be changed because either the company is bankrupt, the machine change would cost millions or the company is strapped for cash and/or labor to actually update all of the necessary (and not supported) industrial computers. This + corporate shit policies from departents disconnected from the needs on the terrain.
- crimsoneer 1y ago
  Palantir installing their kit on your on prem network doesn't give them anymore magical ability to exfiltrate data than installing Microsoft office would.
throwawayq3423 1y ago
> To say that Trump isn't trusted by EU intelligence services would be a vast understatement. Trump isn't trusted by any intelligence service, but seems to only publicly distrust his own ones.

josefritzishere 1y ago

I think we all know whose fault that is.

stronglikedan 1y ago
[flagged]
- Fnoord 1y ago
  It is a two-way system, and this article is about the information flow from NL to USA.
- TylerE 1y ago
  It's probably the guy who has repeatedly and publically stepped on every rake, over and over again.
  - stronglikedan 1y ago
    Biden's been out of office for a while now.
- crote 1y ago
  The original interview clearly states that the US can no longer be trusted to do the right thing with data concerning Russia, and the spy services explicitly say that they are keeping a close eye on the potential of intelligence being politicized or used to violate human rights. There is no need to guess why that is the case, it is painfully obvious to anyone paying even the slightest attention to US politics. Regarding "their loss": the self-destruction of the US on the international stage is directly leading to a "massive scale-up" of the way various European agencies work together. If anything, I'd call that a win.
  - lenerdenator 1y ago
    > Regarding "their loss": the self-destruction of the US on the international stage is directly leading to a "massive scale-up" of the way various European agencies work together. If anything, I'd call that a win. It's going to take time and resources to match what any sort of "lost" cooperation with the US had, assuming they even can match the capabilities. That's a naturally bad thing for intelligence agencies in the interim.

Covzire 1y ago

[flagged]

Covzire 1y ago
Seriously though, the article doesn't say why they're more "critical" but say that intel sharing remains "excellent". That's a lot of words without saying anything, these kinds of articles are fantastic for one thing and one thing only: reinforcing pre-existing beliefs.
- Deukhoofd 1y ago
  The article they cite from De Volkskrant does mention the reasoning why some information is being restricted; the politicizing of information, and the violation of human rights. https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/nederlandse-diensten-delen-minder-informatie-met-de-vs-soms-vertellen-we-dingen-niet-meer~b4882f19/ https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/nederlandse-diensten-de...
  - Covzire 1y ago
    That's a paywall, and I don't speak Dutch, what precisely are the human rights violations they're accusing the US of? And these kinds of accusations go both ways, free-speech is under constant attack in the EU, the ruling class doesn't want citizens informed or even able to inform one another of critical political processes and actions without their thumbs in everyone's mouth, that much is clear.
    - Deukhoofd 1y ago
      They're very careful in not making any real political statements, which makes sense considering it's the heads of both the military intelligence service and general intelligence service. Here's the relevant quotes thrown through Google Translate: *Are you more cautious about sharing certain information?* Reesink: “I can’t comment on what that relationship is like now compared to before. But it’s true that we make that assessment and sometimes don’t share things anymore.” *That’s a striking shift. What has been the most important change?* Akerboom: “We don’t judge what we see politically, but we look at our experiences with the services. And we are very alert to the politicization of our intelligence and to human rights violations.” *What does it mean in practice if there are risks in those areas?* Akerboom: “Sometimes you have to consider each case individually: can I still share this information or not?”

OutOfHere 1y ago

It would be glorious to see Five Eyes fall apart, but that is much bigger ask. Canada would be wise to kick it off before the US annexes it.

psunavy03 1y ago
Because what we all need is to see the Ministry of State Security be the most capable intelligence agency in the world . . . wait, no we don't.
- Alive-in-2025 1y ago
  Russia and China still exist and are pre-eminent dangers. The US has gone crazy but we still need to work together to discourage wars related to invading taiwan or Europe. I am terrified the US won't come back to being an actual democracy that follows the rule of law. At the same time, we can just stop surveilling our citizens in the democratic free world. We can just decide to do that.
  - OutOfHere 1y ago
    The main danger is not Russia and China - it is us. Why? Because we actively stop big tech from developing and deploying cybersecurity solutions to protect billions of people. Why? Because we want us and Israel to be able to hack their systems, just not Russia and China. We want it both ways, to develop the most defensible and the most vulnerable system, and this is why we can never win. This self-incompatible ask will be our collective undoing. Also, if you think the US was a proper democracy, I have news for you - it wasn't. It has been an alternating two-party system that prevents the system from evolving beyond its current state. In a real democracy, information from the voter would be maximized, the first result of which would be to transform it beyond a rigid two-party system. The voting system would not be first-past-the-post. Superior forms of voting such as Ranked Choice and Range Voting would not be banned as they are in numerous red states; they would be welcomed. People would not be denied the right to vote. Gerrymandering wouldn't be a thing. Wake up and see the truth for the darkness it is.

michelb 1y ago

The USA probably doesn't worry much, our Dutch government and related services all run on AWS and Microsoft Office/Azure. All internet access flows through the same cable the NSA has access to. Radio traffic is intercepted in multiple locations in The Netherlands. So sure, there are probably some signals the USA won't receive, but they still get the bulk of it.

crote 1y ago
> our Dutch government and related services all run on AWS and Microsoft Office/Azure And this is already being criticized over and over again. With various German government organizations now actively moving away from Microsoft and demonstrating that you don't need Outlook & Office 365 to run a government, I would be quite surprised if the possibility of doing the same here won't at least be discussed any time something needs an overhaul.
- jeroenhd 1y ago
  As with every large Microsoft migration, the problem isn't figuring out what's necessary to run a government. People in high places only know Microsoft and they don't want to risk having to learn something new. National security isn't as big of a deal as having to spend a few afternoons of training, after all.
  - jll29 1y ago
    It's easy enough to wrap some open source software in GUIs that closely resemble proprietary software (cf. LibreOffice as an example).
  - crote 1y ago
    People in high places have assistants to operate Word for them. If anything, the money Microsoft pours into lobbying is a bigger threat to gaining independence - the killing of the LiMux project[0] made that quite obvious. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux

crises-luff-6b 1y ago

[dead]

howmayiannoyyou 1y ago

Tensions in Venezuela and Dutch interests in the Caribbean. That's the explanation and its public posturing that likely doesn't reflect reality.

crote 1y ago
The Dutch governments haven't exactly shown a lot of interest into their Caribbean links over the last few decades. The actions of the US regarding Venezuela are barely getting mentioned in the Dutch news, and the physical proximity to Aruba/Bonaire/Curacao is not even mentioned in passing.
- clydethefrog 1y ago
  The government-funded news was surprisingly open about it two months ago: Many residents would rather see the American ships leave than arrive. Curaçao traditionally maintains close ties with Venezuela, and residents fear the island will be drawn into a geopolitical conflict. [...] The Dutch government determines the course in these areas under pressure from Washington, while Curaçao itself has little influence. https://nos.nl/artikel/2580380-curacao-voelt-spanning-tussen-vs-en-venezuela-van-dichtbij https://nos.nl/artikel/2580380-curacao-voelt-spanning-tussen...

lenerdenator 1y ago

Everything's for sale. The Dutch were still buying natural gas from Russia as late as 2020 [0] despite 6 years of irregular warfare in the Donbas at that point and 12 years of South Ossetia in Georgia. Hell, they still might be through some sort of third-party reseller. Compared to the early years of the Donbas invasion, having a leader full of hot air is small potatoes. There's always room for spies to get what they want. It's just a matter of what that will be. [0] https://www.gasunie.nl/en/gas-infrastructure/blog-247-energy/where-does-our-natural-gas-come-from https://www.gasunie.nl/en/gas-infrastructure/blog-247-energy...

crote 1y ago
The main reason for the Dutch dependence on Russian gas is the rapid shutdown of the Slochteren field for political reasons[0], while there weren't yet any LNG terminals available to import it from outside Europe. Considering Europe didn't yet view Russia as a genuine threat it's not exactly surprising that importing Russian gas was seen as a viable short-term strategy. [0]: The Slochteren field still has plenty of gas remaining. It was shut down due to pushback from the inhabitants of Groningen, whose houses were being destroyed by earthquakes - caused by soil subsidence as a result of gas extraction. If there were to have been a serious war with Russia at that point, The Netherlands could've trivially shut off all gas imports by scaling the extraction back up.
- mschuster91 1y ago
  The Dutch did extend Groningen for a time after the Russians invaded Ukraine. The problem with earthquakes is no one wants to be held accountable when a house is destroyed and people die.
- lenerdenator 1y ago
  The point isn't about the potential for future production of natural gas or other petrochemical products from Slochteren. The point is that Europeans regularly participate in dealings with countries that act against their best interests on a regular basis, and that there's no real reason to believe that the Dutch will behave any differently with Trump. > Considering Europe didn't yet view Russia as a genuine threat it's not exactly surprising that importing Russian gas was seen as a viable short-term strategy. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Everything should have told Europeans that Russia was reverting back to its old autocratic imperial ways. Everything. Ukrainian politicians and internal dissidents were being poisoned with dioxins and radioisotopes almost 20 years ago by Russian agents. Putin was stacking on more and more repression as the years went by. Hacking campaigns have been a constant problem in the West for decades with strong evidence to suggest the Russian government as a threat actor. The Russian military was building weapons specifically designed to counter NATO, which is the backbone of strategic defense in Europe. And that's before you take into account things like the South Ossetia war which saw the Russians literally invade another country for wanting to move towards a Western sphere of influence. What was funding all of this? Purchases of Russian petroleum products by Europeans who were told over and over to stop by American allies, only to be caught with their flies unzipped when the tanks started rolling into the Donbas three years ago. I have no reason to think that the continent will behave any differently when faced with a Trump administration that would give them benefits to look the other way. The damage he could do to the continent is insignificant compared to what Putin did.

IT4MD 1y ago

Smart move.

aa_is_op 1y ago

Well... taking into account that Trump was screaming and swearing at Zelenskyy to surrender to Russia or Putin will destroy Ukraine just yesterday... I don't see why the Dutch would stop sharing intel with the US </sarcasm>

jay_kyburz 1y ago
Where did you see this? I haven't read that anywhere.
- Refreeze5224 1y ago
  https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2025/10/19/8003438/ https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2025/10/19/8003438/
  - jay_kyburz 1y ago
    thanks
throwawayq3423 1y ago
I genuinely don't understand why Trump doing whatever Putin says, every time, is not a bigger deal in American politics. I've never seen one human being own another human being so completely yet it seems to be a complete non-story.

MiiMe19 1y ago

Am I the only one that doesn't really think of most of Europe as an ally anymore? If it wasn't for shared opposition to Russia and China I would support us cutting most of these ties anyways.

null_deref 1y ago
Why?
- MiiMe19 1y ago
  Different ideas on economics (socialism vs capitalism) and personal freedoms, lack of a shared cultural background anymore, etc.
  - alpineman 1y ago
    Europe is also capitalist. The last time I checked we had stock exchanges, corporations, and private property laws.
  - hjort-e 1y ago
    What countries in Europe are not capitalist? Genuine question. And who has less personal freedoms in your opinion?
  - twixfel 1y ago
    This is just American nonsense. Literally every single country in Europe is capitalist. Socialism is the democratic ownership of the means of production. Nowhere do we have that in Europe. Frankly this is the real problem with America, about half the population are extremely poorly educated and yet extremely arrogant. A deadly combination, clearly, as it’s led to the very sudden decline and fall of the American Empire.
    - MiiMe19 1y ago
      [flagged]

unit149 1y ago

[dead]

Icingdeath 1y ago

Is it fair to say the US has been a bit erratic lately? Seems to me its hard to maintain trust in these circumstances.

stronglikedan 1y ago
> Is it fair to say the US has been a bit erratic lately? More than usual? Not really
throwawayq3423 1y ago
Yes, Americans made the mistake of electing somebody that doesn't believe in stepping down peacefully if he loses an election, among other things.
- RandomBacon 1y ago
  > doesn't believe in stepping down peacefully if he loses an election, among other things. Source? We do have evidence that he stepped down after his first term.
  - mechatrocity 1y ago
    Certainly not peacefully.
    - RandomBacon 1y ago
      Forgive me, I don't pay attention to the national news that much, what did I miss when Trump left the Whitehouse for Biden? Edit: I know about January 6th, I thought OP was talking about something else, my mistake.
      - valiant55 1y ago
        Incited a riot to interrupt the certification of the election with ~500 individuals resulting in the deaths of a few individuals and hundreds of convictions. Most notable Trump did not face prosecution.

bamboozled 1y ago

Good

ElevenLathe 1y ago

> ...inter-agency relations between Dutch and American intelligence organizations remain “excellent”. While I highly doubt that Dutch Intelligence is significantly more accountable tothat the American ones are, and therefore don't assume that any meaningful intelligence will actually be withheld (or at least, if is being withheld, it isn't because of the decision being discussed in this piece), BUT it is at least interesting that they made this announcement, which suggests some element somewhere in the European deep state is at least trying to pressure Washington in some way.

ant6n 1y ago
“The European Deep State”?
- ElevenLathe 1y ago
  You think they don't have one too?
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

alliao 1y ago

so they say.. perhaps they detected leaks and just doing some a/b testing now

escanda 1y ago

Trump is widely adopted around intel services; at least in Spain.

mmonaghan 1y ago

Dramatic headline. They're probably not sharing Ukraine-specific planning info but will continue sharing everything else. My theory is that they can't trust Trump to keep Ukraine stuff secret and I agree with them.