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Its a matter of perspective. EV are progressing fast so they lose value quick, like a laptop of the late 90s. Not quite as bad, but in those times, your comput
by array_key_first 1y ago
Its a matter of perspective.
EV are progressing fast so they lose value quick, like a laptop of the late 90s. Not quite as bad, but in those times, your computer was worth next to nothing in less than a year.
ICE are stagnant. They retain their value because they're not improving at all.
- znpy 1y ago> ICE are stagnant. They retain their value because they're not improving at all. They aren't degrading either, though
- theothertimcook 1y agoThey are definitely degrading. Complex driver aid/“safety” systems, outrageously complicated “infotainment” systems that are also used to interact with system functions, sealed/un-serviceable transmissions, exhaust gas filtration and recirculating systems, these are all additional points of failure that represent a degradation on modern ICE cars. These cars won’t be around 20 years after manufacture in the same way Toyota Camry and Corolla are.
- Consultant32452 1y agoI recently bought a fancy muscle car with all that crap integrated into the infotainment system. I explained to the sales guy that I WANTED to keep this car for the rest of my life but was concerned that wouldn't be possible. In 10 years it may literally be impossible to find a phone that will connect via the USB/bluetooth to the infotainment system. We may all be using something completely different. Not to mention, no one will be manufacturing replacements for that infotainment system if it ever craps out. You can go buy a 50 year old muscle car and upgrade the radio to something kind of modern. But that won't be possible with my car 50 years from now. It's too integrated. The sales guy had clearly never considered this issue before.
- jacobgkau 1y agoIt seems like he didn't need to consider it, since you bought it anyway.
- jlarocco 1y agoI wonder how long it will be before the first EVs get bricked because the manufacturer doesn't want to ship software updates to the old hardware any more. If it can happen to a $1500 phone or a $5k computer, I'm sure it will happen to a $20k car eventually.
- theothertimcook 1y agoI think it’s already happened with some teslas banned from charging stations and being gimped after sale for whatever reason. Apparently a bunch of jeeps got bricked by a pop software update.
- rlpb 1y ago> The sales guy had clearly never considered this issue before. This seems to happen far too often. I've come to the conclusion that salespeople pretend this is the case on purpose, since it benefits them for you to believe that you're the exception.
- gautamcgoel 1y agoWhich car + how do you like it?
- Consultant32452 1y ago2022 challenger srt hellcat redeye. I absolutely love it.
- theothertimcook 1y agoDepending on how mainstream and popular it is, china may come to the rescue. They’ve made some really cool drop in replacements for oem systems.
- jlarocco 1y agoThose complaints are really orthogonal to the EV vs ICE debate, though. Somebody could claim driver aids and infotainment EVs are "degrading" in EVs in the exact same way - in fact they're even more integrated in EVs. And although EVs don't have the same transmissions and exhaust gas systems, they have their own unique complexities and points of failure, like batteries and regenerative braking systems.
- theothertimcook 1y ago100% all of the advantages of bulletproof electronic motor are smashed by reliance on finicky little software systems
- rasz 1y ago10 years is when you really should do a heavy refresh in the engine bay. Stem the tide of oil leaks, replace perished rubber hoses, tuneup (plugs & leads) because lets be honest you never replaced those unless one was obviously broken, fix exhaust leaks, pray cat is not dead and you didnt luck out on a model with factory defects like for example Ford EcoBoost wet belt disintegrating into rubber debris in oil pickup ($10K job). Tons of brands went for lower tension piston rings in the name of ecology and gas mileage, GM EcoTec, Stellantis Tigershark, even Toyotas end up burning oil like crazy and need full engine rebuilds/new engines. Obligatory they stopped making them like they used to :) 10 years is a very dangerous age for a used car right now. ICE cars are practically falling apart between service windows when compared to EV.
- Amezarak 1y agoThis is not normal. I have a 10 year old budget ICE car and nothing is wrong with it. When I change the oil every 10k miles, the same amount I put in still comes out. It has about 240k.
- rasz 1y agoThis is the new normal, you just got lucky. For example someone in the comments mentioned his 03 Pontiac Vibe GT - he also got super lucky. Non GT Vibes were powered by factory defective 1ZZFE.
- echelon 1y agoMy ICE SUV has nearly 200,000 miles on it and is worth almost the exact same as when I bought it ten years ago. FJ Cruisers are popular. There's no way I'm buying an EV. I can't charge it where I live, it won't easily refuel where I'm going, and I hate infotainment centers over knobs and buttons. If I do buy a new car - and I really don't have to - it'll be an ICE without an annoying screen in the middle console.
- rasz 1y agoLucky you got the quirky FJ instead of more rational Tacoma, Tundra or Sequoia with their disintegrating frames.
- hdgvhicv 1y agoWell they are, it’s a common complaint about modern cars. https://roadwarriornews.com/autoenshittification-allows-car-makers-to-steal-your-data-pick-your-pocket/ https://roadwarriornews.com/autoenshittification-allows-car-...
- johnebgd 1y agoMost people don’t want to lose tens of thousands of dollars in value to progress for progress sake… I just bought a car and went ICE in no small part to resale value.
- yellowapple 1y agoMeanwhile, I don't really care much about resale value because when I buy a car I typically intend to drive it until it dies. In this sense, EVs depreciating faster than ICEVs is exciting, since if my current Tacoma prematurely gives up the ghost (or I buy a second car) I can add “snag an EV for cheap” to my list of available options.
- yibg 1y agoThat's still depreciation, just deprecation until it dies (down to near $0 value from new) vs depreciation until you sell it. If it dies fast, the depreciation is still high.
- scotty79 1y agoYeah, but it doesn't die fast. Re-sale value is low because of the competition from newer models due to rapidly developing tech.
- hdgvhicv 1y agoHow many years/miles does the average new ev last and how much does it cost to own/operate for that time. How many years/miles does the average new ice cost and how much does it cost to own/operate. I tend to buy the bottom of the market. My last cost £1100 and has lasted 3 years/9k miles so far and seems reasonable. I didn’t buy electric because they are far more expensive. That’s seems to be at odds with the claim they deprecate more. There are 57 electric cars under 3k for sale and 30,000 petrol ones on auto trader. At any price the ratio is about 10:1 rather than 600:1. Second hand EVs are more expensive than second hand petrol cars.
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- hcknwscommenter 1y agoAside from battery longevity is there really anything better about a new model S compared to a 5 year old model?
- supportengineer 1y agoI have a 5 year old Model S and it's still like new. And it has a wheel instead of a yolk. The problems with used cars are usually: 1. The previous owner abused the car 2. There is known damage which is being kept hidden from you
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- bunderbunder 1y agoAnd those might be particularly poignant problems for used EVs because EVs are notoriously expensive to repair.
- array_key_first 1y agoBattery technology in general. And, Tesla is an outlier here. Other EVs are progressing MUCH faster.
- bdangubic 1y agothat is a bold statement that needs to be backed by an example... while Tesla is certainly the dinosaur with the most outdated lineup of cars others aren't that much better (unless we venture into super-luxury 6-figure price zone...)
- array_key_first 1y agoLook at almost* any other manufacturer. Kia and BYD are two prominent examples. They're outputting huge batteries and absolutely bonkers charging times. But even US manufacturers have surpassed Tesla. What GM is doing is more impressive.
- stackedinserter 1y agoBut 10 year old ICE is still a perfectly good car, yet 10 year old Tesla is trash. Not because there's a better Tesla now, but because it's no repairable and will soon require a new $20k battery.
- highwaylights 1y agoNot really convinced the logic is right here. If the battery dies there’s still options before replacing it with a new one from the manufacturer at retail price. Even then, batteries in EVs don’t have a 100% failure rate. There are still many 15 year old Leafs driving around on the original battery, and I’m not sure the out-and-out failures (I.e. not including gradual capacity loss) are a high number either. Modern EVs (2016-present) have even lower failure rates again (below 1% within 200k miles including those replaced due to capacity loss)
- stackedinserter 1y agoThat's not the reason why I'm personally not into EVs, but significant capacity loss == failure to me.
- highwaylights 1y agoIt depends on the original range surely? Losing 30% of 120 miles is a lot more significant to most people than losing 30% of 300 miles (which >99% won’t within the life of the car).
- AnthonyMouse 1y agoIt also doesn't require the same person to be using the car. Someone has a 90 mile round trip commute and buys a car with a 120 mile range. Having it drop below 90 miles after a decade isn't working for them anymore, so they sell it. Works fine for someone with a 30 mile commute.
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- labcomputer 1y ago> EV are progressing fast so they lose value quick, Are they really, though? A 2021 Model 3, Mach-e, Polestar 2, Model Y, F-150 Lightning, e-Tron, or ID.4 (to name just a few) are not too different from the ones sold today. Aside from software updates and minor refinements (mostly DFM), I don't see much progress. That's not a problem, since they're all competent vehicles for single-car households. Several 2025/26 models have even been de-contented compared to their 2021 selves. Trying to steel-man your argument a little, the only models I can think of with significant progress are the bZ4X/Solterra (widely panned due to initially uncompetitive specs and pricing), Leaf (which has been getting small, incremental improvements for more than a decade) and the now-discontinued Bolt (which was the cheapest road-tripable EV). I think you really have to be looking compliance cars that entered the market before the Model 3 and/or models that were acknowledged as uncompetitive when new to find significant/fast progress. No, the real problem is that the true market-clearing price for most of these vehicles was $7500-$10000 less than MSRP (which was set knowing the regulatory environment), combined with the false calculation of depreciation based on MSRP instead of market price.
- tartoran 1y agoI'm sure for newer EV models makers cut down on production costs but they may also cut down on quality as well.
- nostrademons 1y agoPresumably you’re in the US, given the models you list. Don’t look there, because the best EVs are not available in the U.S. because of trade barriers. Look at what BYD and Toyota are doing in China.
- fnordpiglet 1y agoHow does that impact depreciation in the US?
- nostrademons 1y agoThe article here is about rental car fleets, and explicitly states that consumers (and particularly Teslas) are not seeing the same depreciation. Rental car fleets often buy EVs that are available on the global market (eg Kia or Hyundai models) and sell back into that global market.
- jacobgkau 1y ago> in those times, your computer was worth next to nothing in less than a year. > ICE are stagnant. They retain their value because they're not improving at all. This doesn't make sense. As already pointed out, the reason computers lose value is because the same money can buy something that does the job better (faster, lighter, etc). ICE don't retain value because they're not improving; they retain value because they still do the same job X years later. EVs, meanwhile, are losing value even though the same money as a used EV can't buy anything that actually does the job better, as pointed out earlier in the thread. So there must be something else in play (such as battery degradation lowering value of EVs quicker than engine wear & tear lowers value of ICEs).
- nostrademons 1y agoICE and EV are two market segments. They are partially substitutable, but for many ICE customers an EV is a non-starter because of charging infrastructure, which means that if one of those customers needs to replace their ICE vehicle, they need to replace it with another ICE vehicle, and cannot take advantage of price drops in new EVs. (I ran into this personally; I wanted to get an EV, but my garage does not have a charger, none of the circuits near it could support a charger, and so I need to rewire my house and get a main panel upgrade to do more than L1 charging.) Likewise US and rest-of-world are different markets because of trade barriers. Within the EV market segment, the resale value may be plummeting because new car prices are declining because of improved technology and higher volume. Someone who is replacing their EV or looking for a new one already has the required charging infrastructure, otherwise they wouldn't be looking. But this price drop affects only other EV buyers, because ICE buyers cannot take advantage of it. This insulation lasts only as long as the price differential between them remains less than the capital costs of getting a L2 charger and associated electrical upgrades.
- 7952 1y agoAnd there are a lot of other less rational reasons why people don't want to buy a standard electric car or a standard ice pick up truck. Why is charging at slow speed at home such an issue for you?
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- bigiain 1y agoAt some stage, "improvements" become nothing more than marketing buzzwords. I'd argue one reason ICE are "stagnant" are because they're "good enough" and any potential improvements required expensive R&D and manufacturing changes, for results that purchasers won't change their buying decision for. Maybe Toyata could make an ICE for the Camry that was 5% more efficient, but few people who were about to buy someone else's equivalent car will choose a Camry instead based on such a marginal improvement. I think phones are a good current example of this. I have felt zero need to upgrade from my iPhone 13, because the "improvements" since it was new are of zero interest or value to me. I'm quite likely to do a battery replacement on this one instead of upgrading to a new iPhone any time soon. (And the only reason I bought the iPhone13 was to get the backside lidar, I was perfectly happy with the XR I used before that.)
- SideburnsOfDoom 1y agoIsn't that a different way of saying the same thing? There's no denying that ICE Engines have been around for a long time, relative to EVs. A mature technology means that any low-hanging fruit for performance improvements was found a long time ago. Remaining gains require the expensive R&D for marginal improvements that you mention. It's not that they're "good enough" - any consumer who can do the sums would prefer a 20% better price/performance, always. It's just that such improvements are not there to be had in ICE vehicles. There is no rush to improve them, as you said. And therefor the performance of a new ICE vehicle, 5 year old vehicle or 10 year old vehicle is well-understood, predictable. Both in terms of what the tech was when it was built, and how it has aged. EVs are less so in both of these dimensions. e.g. I would have reasonable confidence in the durability of an EV battery for a 2025 model, but much less so for a 2015 model. They're just not the same.
- bestnameever 1y agoHow are EV's progressing fast?
- p1dda 1y agoYou seem oblivious to just how mature the tech is for petrol and diesel so you shouldn't say anything about them really.
- Teknomadix 1y agoDisagree; I drive a 40 year old Mercedes-Benz turbo diesel sedan for the exact opposite reason that nothing made today is as effective and reliable with comparative economy and comfort. My huge tank of a vehicle is safe, comfortable, and economic. Runs entirely on plant based biofuels and delivers an experience that no modern machines can rival. The cost of these old sedans steadily increases despite being 4 decadea old. Mine has 550000km on the odometer and rising. Simple and affordable to maintain, and can be worked on with standard hand tools. No computers on-board.
- dgan 1y agoWhats the model may i ask?
- dymk 1y agoWhat’s the cost of biofuel, and what economy does the car get? And have you looked at how it’s crash test ratings actually stand up against a modern vehicle?
- Forgeties79 1y ago> And have you looked at how it’s crash test ratings actually stand up against a modern vehicle? My first thought for sure. Especially because vehicles are getting demonstrably larger and heavier again in the US.
- nojito 1y ago>vehicle is safe Sure if you ignore all the safety improvements made to driving over the last 40 years...
- slumpt_ 1y agoagree here vehicle safety improvements are one of the primary motivators (for me) to drive new cars. driving is dangerous and i want the best odds when the inevitable occurs
- seg_lol 1y ago