6 ms·

Taxes are crazy anyhow. The government won't tell me how much I owe, but if I'm incompetent enough at figuring out the number, suddenly they both have a clear i

Taxes are crazy anyhow. The government won't tell me how much I owe, but if I'm incompetent enough at figuring out the number, suddenly they both have a clear idea of what I owe and also I'm now in trouble. Why doesn't the government just tell me what I owe, and if I think they've calculated incorrectly, only then do I do my own filing or hire a CPA or whatever else?

nemomarx 1y ago
The tax filing industry is against it, essentially. Various attempts by the IRS to move in this direction have been stopped. There used to be a libertarian wing that thought paying taxes should be a little painful so people wouldn't vote for more taxes, but I've not heard anyone say that since the bush era.
- ch4s3 1y ago
  The Grover Norquist folks in the RNC were not libertarians.
  - lelandfe 1y ago
    My favorite part about Norquist and the starve the beast folks is the utter hypocrisy of their silence in the face of Trump's tariffs. So much for the "drown the government in the bathtub" talk - turns out it was always just about the rich not paying more.
    - entropicdrifter 1y ago
      Pretty wild to me that we're at the point where even Penn Gillette recognizes that modern American Libertarianism is ultimately just about rich white men who want to do whatever they want with no consequences
      - ch4s3 1y ago
        It’s not really ironic, he just broke with the LP per se. He’s given interviews with Reason where he says his core beliefs haven’t really changed.
        entropicdrifter 1y ago
        Who said it was ironic? I just said it was wild
    - ch4s3 1y ago
      Norquist has always been a partisan hack. To his credit he was against the Iraq war when that was unpopular with Republicans, but he’s acquitted himself especially poorly in the era of Trump. That said he’s not and never was a libertarian.
jampekka 1y ago
> Why doesn't the government just tell me what I owe, and if I think they've calculated incorrectly, only then do I do my own filing or hire a CPA or whatever else? This is how it's done in most other countries.
- dh2022 1y ago
  How do other countries find out income and deductions for small businesses? For example: the cost of replacing the blade on a lawn mower. For a small business doing gardening that is a cost that needs to be deducted from their income. How would the government know to deduct this cost from the revenue and calculate out the tax?
  - jampekka 1y ago
    Businesses typically do need to file. Individuals may have to report some of the deductables they want to claim. E.g. in Finland employers deduct taxes directly from salaries. Also some capital gains taxes are directly deducted by banks etc, or at least the income is reported to the tax office. Yearly the tax office sends a prefilled report based on these. If you are fine with it, you don't have to do anything. If you want to add e.g. deductions, you add them on the tax office's website and it calculates the new report. I've been getting taxable incomes for 25 years or so and I have never had to do any tax reporting.
    - bobthepanda 1y ago
      The dumb thing about your Finland example vs the US is that all of that is also done in the US other than the prefilling.
      - dh2022 1y ago
        Nit - as far as I know in US this standard deduction applies only to overall household income. It does not apply to Schedule C (aka small business tax return form). For Schedule C you really have to itemize what you spend your money on and keep receipts for some time in case of an audit.
Theodores 1y ago
> Taxes are crazy, anyhow... Outside the Overton Window, why are individuals taxed rather than businesses? There was a time when the government had no business knowing the financial affairs of the citizens, but then some kings got the idea that they could tax everyone to pay for their wars. Nowadays we assume tax paying is good and socially responsible, with only tax-dodging scum not wanting to pay their taxes. Due to tax havens and whatnot, for a company to compete and be successful, some tax avoidance is needed. So we have every corporation opting out of paying taxes. Consequently, taxation is for the citizens, not the corporations. Companies have accountants and bookkeepers. Individuals don't unless they are seriously wealthy. As I see it, it would make much more sense to just tax companies and not individuals. Think of the amount of time that would be saved, particularly if VAT is a tax, which it isn't in America. I have to say that the American tax system sounds like hell, compared to what we have in the UK.
- angiolillo 1y ago
  > it would make much more sense to just tax companies and not individuals Sure, but taxes are applied due to political feasibility, not because they "make sense". The most sensible approach is to tax natural resources (land, carbon, mines, wells, electromagnetic spectrum) and other forms of economic rent, but that is politically infeasible (edit: or more accurately, very challenging) in a capitalist democracy.
  - mothballed 1y ago
    Back when the federal government was constrained to that permitted within the 10th amendment, the average person paid taxes almost exclusively through indirect tariffs, property taxes, and some levies (effectively sales tax) on purchased goods. But back then the non-wartime spend of the federal government was like 2-4% of GDP
  - skeeter2020 1y ago
    I don't follow you or the GP - all of these (and more) are taxed. I'm in Alberta, Canada where we pay property (land) tax, personal income tax, corporate income tax, consumption tax, payroll tax, wealth tax, estate transfer tax, mineral taxes (often in-kind), and (until recently) a direct carbon tax. And that's not nearly all of them. I can't imagine the US is much different.
groundzeros2015 1y ago
This is a meme, but it’s not true. The fact is taxes are 1. Subjective 2. Based on your real world activity outside your W2. So the IRS has correlative algorithms to signal an audit if something looks strange. But besides that, you are evaluating your real world activity and classifying it according to the forms they have. This is why accountants and lawyers are useful in tax. They can help you interpret the tax code and argue to the IRS your interpretation,
- dmoy 1y ago
  This is true in the general case, but it does miss the fact that a huge percentage of people could have their taxes done automatically by data that the IRS has
  - groundzeros2015 1y ago
    Does the IRS know: - how much of the year your wife are kids are living with you? - whether you took college courses? - how much you put into your IRA? - which purchases count as medical expenses? - the cost basis of the stock you sold?
    - aidenn0 1y ago
      Those things matter for less than half the population.
      - groundzeros2015 1y ago
        If you don’t care about deductions you can fill out a 2 page 1040 with your W2. As they calculated for you. but people do care and so they are willing to pay $60 for tax help
        aidenn0 1y ago
        About 80% of filers take the standard deduction.
dh2022 1y ago
The case you outlined is for employed people - in this case the income and deductions are very clear and relatively easy for government to find out and calculate the tax. How would the government be able to know the income and deductions for small businesses? And in the USA at least lots of people have small businesses (cleaning businesses, landscaping, sub-contracting in construction industry, mowing lawns, consulting gigs, Uber/Lyft drivers, etc...)
- op00to 1y ago
  > How would the government be able to know the income and deductions for small businesses Determine the amount of average deductions for small businesses, benchmark against however much money you want to extract from small businesses, then give all small businesses a blanket standard deduction.
  - dh2022 1y ago
    I personally have a problem with "benchmark against however much money you want to extract from small businesses"... So a hard NO from me.
    - dyarosla 1y ago
      How do you think tax rates are determined…?
    - op00to 1y ago
      You have to balance the books somehow. I'm not saying "pay for forever wars on the backs of small business owners." I'd like to see a personal wealth tax of 80% of any wealth over a certain benchmark ($50,000,000 maybe?), and 80% profit taxes for any companies with more than $1 billion in net profits. In my ideal world, small business owners should not really have to pay much in taxes, with the largest companies paying the lion's share.
  - twoodfin 1y ago
    Yes, this argument is all about the tension between ease of filing and the complexity of the tax code. It really has very little to do with TurboTax lobbying, but that’s a framing that sells.
wat10000 1y ago
It's annoying, but the trouble is overstated. The common version of this statement talks about jail! As long as you're not actively evading taxes, the trouble consists of some penalties and interest. Better not to have it, but also not a very big deal.
- dfxm12 1y ago
  Trump is already talking about going after his perceived political enemies via the IRS. I guess if the President of the USA wants to target you, he'll get you, but still, no trouble is overstated when the government actively works against its constituents.
  - blasphemers 1y ago
    The IRS was literally caught targeting conservatives less than a decade ago.
nxor 1y ago
Looks like you've had a bit too much to think!
testing22321 1y ago
The United States is not a successful country in that it does things to benefit citizens. It’s an extremely successful business in that it does things to ensure more profit can be made. Healthcare, education, defence contracts, tax collection, etc etc. The goal is to make more money for some company.
- entropicdrifter 1y ago
  That's because it's a plutocracy. Money is literally considered speech here, which is insane.
  - mindslight 1y ago
    Except when it comes time to speak in private with other people, speak for other people so they may obtain privacy, speak for sex work, speak for drugs, speak at banks, speak to people in other countries, refuse to speak to government, etc. Then it's very serious Money which has Very Important Regulations. Regulations which always seem to burden regular individuals while facilitating business as usual for those with power who can grease the system. FWIW I think the "money is speech" is actually a bit of a distraction. What we really need is wholesale reform to corporate/LLC law. Corpos are not mere groups of people exercising their individual rights, but government-created liability shields. Thus it makes perfect sense to regulate them to prevent obvious mechanisms of harm that leave others holding the bag. The vaunted "man in the arena" needing minimal regulation can actually get into that arena with a sole proprietorship or general partnership. (which is exactly where most small businesses actually are, regardless of any LLC filings)
  - fooqux 1y ago
    What, never heard the term "money talks" before?
  - testing22321 1y ago
    Yes, and that corporations have the same rights as people, but can’t face the same consequences. The fines for wrongdoing are so tiny the incentives are to always do bad stuff and just pay the fines - that’s how to maximize profit and there’s no downside.
mrguyorama 1y ago
Since nobody gave you the meaningful answer: It's republicans. Republicans are against making taxes simpler to individuals because, and they have explicitly said this, they want taxes to hurt so that Americans will be more likely to vote for tax reduction. I'm sure some democrats get a few thousand from Intuit somewhere but at the end of the day, it's republicans voting down things like free file and the government's digital initiatives and refusing to let the US gov do your taxes for you. It's frustrating how often people in the US blame "the government" instead of the very specific subset of that government that they keep voting for that objectively and openly and loudly do things that harm them.
- nitwit005 1y ago
  The problem is, there's a history of doing the exact opposite of what they claim to want to do. Plenty of Republicans have expressed a desire to make the tax code simpler, only to promptly add to the complexity. More recently, Elon Musk was publicly proposing a mobile app for making filing taxes easier (See https://www.fox26houston.com/news/doge-tax-filing-app https://www.fox26houston.com/news/doge-tax-filing-app), but then once part of the Trump administration, they happily killed Direct File, a program to do exactly that.
dguest 1y ago
> and also I'm now in trouble I know people who mess it up every year and the government just sends the forms back corrected. In fact they started treating the government like a tax prep service. Do people actually get in trouble for this?
- filoleg 1y ago
  > Do people actually get in trouble for this? Unless they willingly and provingly try to grift IRS on a continuous basis, no, people don't get in trouble for this. If you mess something up or underpay on your taxes, and if (or when) IRS detects it, they will send you a letter explaining their concerns and provide you with remediation options (as well as an opportunity to dispute, of course). The remediation options provided by IRS typically include both "pay it now and we will go away as if it never happened" and "talk to us, and we can work out a payment plan with you (in case you aren't able to cover at the moment)". So no, IRS isn't some boogeyman that is gonna get you in trouble over a mistake. If they catch a mistake, they will work with you to remediate it, and their terms are typically extremely reasonable, and have zero negative consequences for utilizing them (unless you are, beyond any reasonable doubt, trying to defraud them or refuse to cooperate entirely).
  - DontchaKnowit 1y ago
    Eh the problem is when they dont catch mistakes for several years, and then come after you for like 80 grand at once, and then when you cant pay it threaten to seize your assets
    - HWR_14 1y ago
      When you cant pay it, they will set up a payment plan over years (maybe a decade) to pay it off.
      - DontchaKnowit 1y ago
        Yeah until they cancel the payment plan without notice and demand full payment or they start seizing assets. Happened to my parents recently
amelius 1y ago
This is, among other things, how Republicans make ordinary people hate the government.
cowmix 1y ago
This is what people like Grover Norquist fought hard to stop. They want every part of the tax collecting/paying process as hard as possible: https://priceonomics.com/the-stanford-professor-who-fought-the-tax-lobby/ https://priceonomics.com/the-stanford-professor-who-fought-t...
SLWW 1y ago
Income tax was supposed to end after we recovered from the Civil War anyhow, so it's, by any other definition applied to any corp or business, unjust theft (like autobilling someone after they paid off their loan). So of course it doesn't work. Also plausible deniability, if you overpay, rarely will the gov give you back what you give them, and if they do, it's months afterwards.
gramie 1y ago
The Canadian government recently announced automated tax filing. I assume that you still file your exemptions because there is no way (I hope) they know what charities I am donating to!
estimator7292 1y ago
> Why doesn't the government just tell me what I owe[?] Mostly because of: > TurboTax’s 20-year fight to stop Americans from filing taxes for free
hexbin010 1y ago
[dead]
ThePowerOfFuet 1y ago
>Why doesn't the government just tell me what I owe, and if I think they've calculated incorrectly, only then do I do my own filing or hire a CPA or whatever else? This is precisely how it works in both EU countries in which I've lived.
GuB-42 1y ago
It is like with all laws. There isn't an agent following your every step telling you what to do and what not to do. You are supposed to know the law and abide by it, and they will occasionally have people make sure of it, be it by police or tax auditors. For taxes, how is the government supposed to know about the work you did in exchange for cash? Or make a difference between a vacation and a tax destructible business trip. They will sometimes look into it if they suspect fraud, but they have no way of knowing exactly what you owe beforehand, and that's a good thing, surveillance is as bad as it is right now, not mentioning the costs. The best they can do, and that's how it is done in most countries, is to tell you "according to what we know, you owe us XXX", but it only works in the simple cases, like for those whose only income is their salary. If they missed something and their estimation is wrong, you must declare it or you can be in trouble. It is just a convenience, you still need to do your taxes correctly and you are responsible for it. One may argue the rules could be simpler, but they are complex because the world is complex, and even small changes can make or break industries.
RiverStone 1y ago
The government does tell you the information it has. Most people don’t realize this and therefore aren’t optimizing their taxes, but it is a trick known by accountants. Each year, you should file an extension and then wait for your IRS to publish its transcript (in May I believe) that shows all the wage/income and other info the IRS has on you.

nemomarx 1y ago

The tax filing industry is against it, essentially. Various attempts by the IRS to move in this direction have been stopped. There used to be a libertarian wing that thought paying taxes should be a little painful so people wouldn't vote for more taxes, but I've not heard anyone say that since the bush era.

ch4s3 1y ago
The Grover Norquist folks in the RNC were not libertarians.
- lelandfe 1y ago
  My favorite part about Norquist and the starve the beast folks is the utter hypocrisy of their silence in the face of Trump's tariffs. So much for the "drown the government in the bathtub" talk - turns out it was always just about the rich not paying more.
  - entropicdrifter 1y ago
    Pretty wild to me that we're at the point where even Penn Gillette recognizes that modern American Libertarianism is ultimately just about rich white men who want to do whatever they want with no consequences
    - ch4s3 1y ago
      It’s not really ironic, he just broke with the LP per se. He’s given interviews with Reason where he says his core beliefs haven’t really changed.
      - entropicdrifter 1y ago
        Who said it was ironic? I just said it was wild
  - ch4s3 1y ago
    Norquist has always been a partisan hack. To his credit he was against the Iraq war when that was unpopular with Republicans, but he’s acquitted himself especially poorly in the era of Trump. That said he’s not and never was a libertarian.

jampekka 1y ago

> Why doesn't the government just tell me what I owe, and if I think they've calculated incorrectly, only then do I do my own filing or hire a CPA or whatever else? This is how it's done in most other countries.

dh2022 1y ago
How do other countries find out income and deductions for small businesses? For example: the cost of replacing the blade on a lawn mower. For a small business doing gardening that is a cost that needs to be deducted from their income. How would the government know to deduct this cost from the revenue and calculate out the tax?
- jampekka 1y ago
  Businesses typically do need to file. Individuals may have to report some of the deductables they want to claim. E.g. in Finland employers deduct taxes directly from salaries. Also some capital gains taxes are directly deducted by banks etc, or at least the income is reported to the tax office. Yearly the tax office sends a prefilled report based on these. If you are fine with it, you don't have to do anything. If you want to add e.g. deductions, you add them on the tax office's website and it calculates the new report. I've been getting taxable incomes for 25 years or so and I have never had to do any tax reporting.
  - bobthepanda 1y ago
    The dumb thing about your Finland example vs the US is that all of that is also done in the US other than the prefilling.
    - dh2022 1y ago
      Nit - as far as I know in US this standard deduction applies only to overall household income. It does not apply to Schedule C (aka small business tax return form). For Schedule C you really have to itemize what you spend your money on and keep receipts for some time in case of an audit.

Theodores 1y ago

> Taxes are crazy, anyhow... Outside the Overton Window, why are individuals taxed rather than businesses? There was a time when the government had no business knowing the financial affairs of the citizens, but then some kings got the idea that they could tax everyone to pay for their wars. Nowadays we assume tax paying is good and socially responsible, with only tax-dodging scum not wanting to pay their taxes. Due to tax havens and whatnot, for a company to compete and be successful, some tax avoidance is needed. So we have every corporation opting out of paying taxes. Consequently, taxation is for the citizens, not the corporations. Companies have accountants and bookkeepers. Individuals don't unless they are seriously wealthy. As I see it, it would make much more sense to just tax companies and not individuals. Think of the amount of time that would be saved, particularly if VAT is a tax, which it isn't in America. I have to say that the American tax system sounds like hell, compared to what we have in the UK.

angiolillo 1y ago
> it would make much more sense to just tax companies and not individuals Sure, but taxes are applied due to political feasibility, not because they "make sense". The most sensible approach is to tax natural resources (land, carbon, mines, wells, electromagnetic spectrum) and other forms of economic rent, but that is politically infeasible (edit: or more accurately, very challenging) in a capitalist democracy.
- mothballed 1y ago
  Back when the federal government was constrained to that permitted within the 10th amendment, the average person paid taxes almost exclusively through indirect tariffs, property taxes, and some levies (effectively sales tax) on purchased goods. But back then the non-wartime spend of the federal government was like 2-4% of GDP
- skeeter2020 1y ago
  I don't follow you or the GP - all of these (and more) are taxed. I'm in Alberta, Canada where we pay property (land) tax, personal income tax, corporate income tax, consumption tax, payroll tax, wealth tax, estate transfer tax, mineral taxes (often in-kind), and (until recently) a direct carbon tax. And that's not nearly all of them. I can't imagine the US is much different.

groundzeros2015 1y ago

This is a meme, but it’s not true. The fact is taxes are 1. Subjective 2. Based on your real world activity outside your W2. So the IRS has correlative algorithms to signal an audit if something looks strange. But besides that, you are evaluating your real world activity and classifying it according to the forms they have. This is why accountants and lawyers are useful in tax. They can help you interpret the tax code and argue to the IRS your interpretation,

dmoy 1y ago
This is true in the general case, but it does miss the fact that a huge percentage of people could have their taxes done automatically by data that the IRS has
- groundzeros2015 1y ago
  Does the IRS know: - how much of the year your wife are kids are living with you? - whether you took college courses? - how much you put into your IRA? - which purchases count as medical expenses? - the cost basis of the stock you sold?
  - aidenn0 1y ago
    Those things matter for less than half the population.
    - groundzeros2015 1y ago
      If you don’t care about deductions you can fill out a 2 page 1040 with your W2. As they calculated for you. but people do care and so they are willing to pay $60 for tax help
      - aidenn0 1y ago
        About 80% of filers take the standard deduction.

dh2022 1y ago

The case you outlined is for employed people - in this case the income and deductions are very clear and relatively easy for government to find out and calculate the tax. How would the government be able to know the income and deductions for small businesses? And in the USA at least lots of people have small businesses (cleaning businesses, landscaping, sub-contracting in construction industry, mowing lawns, consulting gigs, Uber/Lyft drivers, etc...)

op00to 1y ago
> How would the government be able to know the income and deductions for small businesses Determine the amount of average deductions for small businesses, benchmark against however much money you want to extract from small businesses, then give all small businesses a blanket standard deduction.
- dh2022 1y ago
  I personally have a problem with "benchmark against however much money you want to extract from small businesses"... So a hard NO from me.
  - dyarosla 1y ago
    How do you think tax rates are determined…?
  - op00to 1y ago
    You have to balance the books somehow. I'm not saying "pay for forever wars on the backs of small business owners." I'd like to see a personal wealth tax of 80% of any wealth over a certain benchmark ($50,000,000 maybe?), and 80% profit taxes for any companies with more than $1 billion in net profits. In my ideal world, small business owners should not really have to pay much in taxes, with the largest companies paying the lion's share.
- twoodfin 1y ago
  Yes, this argument is all about the tension between ease of filing and the complexity of the tax code. It really has very little to do with TurboTax lobbying, but that’s a framing that sells.

wat10000 1y ago

It's annoying, but the trouble is overstated. The common version of this statement talks about jail! As long as you're not actively evading taxes, the trouble consists of some penalties and interest. Better not to have it, but also not a very big deal.

dfxm12 1y ago
Trump is already talking about going after his perceived political enemies via the IRS. I guess if the President of the USA wants to target you, he'll get you, but still, no trouble is overstated when the government actively works against its constituents.
- blasphemers 1y ago
  The IRS was literally caught targeting conservatives less than a decade ago.

nxor 1y ago

Looks like you've had a bit too much to think!

testing22321 1y ago

The United States is not a successful country in that it does things to benefit citizens. It’s an extremely successful business in that it does things to ensure more profit can be made. Healthcare, education, defence contracts, tax collection, etc etc. The goal is to make more money for some company.

entropicdrifter 1y ago
That's because it's a plutocracy. Money is literally considered speech here, which is insane.
- mindslight 1y ago
  Except when it comes time to speak in private with other people, speak for other people so they may obtain privacy, speak for sex work, speak for drugs, speak at banks, speak to people in other countries, refuse to speak to government, etc. Then it's very serious Money which has Very Important Regulations. Regulations which always seem to burden regular individuals while facilitating business as usual for those with power who can grease the system. FWIW I think the "money is speech" is actually a bit of a distraction. What we really need is wholesale reform to corporate/LLC law. Corpos are not mere groups of people exercising their individual rights, but government-created liability shields. Thus it makes perfect sense to regulate them to prevent obvious mechanisms of harm that leave others holding the bag. The vaunted "man in the arena" needing minimal regulation can actually get into that arena with a sole proprietorship or general partnership. (which is exactly where most small businesses actually are, regardless of any LLC filings)
- fooqux 1y ago
  What, never heard the term "money talks" before?
- testing22321 1y ago
  Yes, and that corporations have the same rights as people, but can’t face the same consequences. The fines for wrongdoing are so tiny the incentives are to always do bad stuff and just pay the fines - that’s how to maximize profit and there’s no downside.

mrguyorama 1y ago

Since nobody gave you the meaningful answer: It's republicans. Republicans are against making taxes simpler to individuals because, and they have explicitly said this, they want taxes to hurt so that Americans will be more likely to vote for tax reduction. I'm sure some democrats get a few thousand from Intuit somewhere but at the end of the day, it's republicans voting down things like free file and the government's digital initiatives and refusing to let the US gov do your taxes for you. It's frustrating how often people in the US blame "the government" instead of the very specific subset of that government that they keep voting for that objectively and openly and loudly do things that harm them.

nitwit005 1y ago
The problem is, there's a history of doing the exact opposite of what they claim to want to do. Plenty of Republicans have expressed a desire to make the tax code simpler, only to promptly add to the complexity. More recently, Elon Musk was publicly proposing a mobile app for making filing taxes easier (See https://www.fox26houston.com/news/doge-tax-filing-app https://www.fox26houston.com/news/doge-tax-filing-app), but then once part of the Trump administration, they happily killed Direct File, a program to do exactly that.

dguest 1y ago

> and also I'm now in trouble I know people who mess it up every year and the government just sends the forms back corrected. In fact they started treating the government like a tax prep service. Do people actually get in trouble for this?

filoleg 1y ago
> Do people actually get in trouble for this? Unless they willingly and provingly try to grift IRS on a continuous basis, no, people don't get in trouble for this. If you mess something up or underpay on your taxes, and if (or when) IRS detects it, they will send you a letter explaining their concerns and provide you with remediation options (as well as an opportunity to dispute, of course). The remediation options provided by IRS typically include both "pay it now and we will go away as if it never happened" and "talk to us, and we can work out a payment plan with you (in case you aren't able to cover at the moment)". So no, IRS isn't some boogeyman that is gonna get you in trouble over a mistake. If they catch a mistake, they will work with you to remediate it, and their terms are typically extremely reasonable, and have zero negative consequences for utilizing them (unless you are, beyond any reasonable doubt, trying to defraud them or refuse to cooperate entirely).
- DontchaKnowit 1y ago
  Eh the problem is when they dont catch mistakes for several years, and then come after you for like 80 grand at once, and then when you cant pay it threaten to seize your assets
  - HWR_14 1y ago
    When you cant pay it, they will set up a payment plan over years (maybe a decade) to pay it off.
    - DontchaKnowit 1y ago
      Yeah until they cancel the payment plan without notice and demand full payment or they start seizing assets. Happened to my parents recently

amelius 1y ago

This is, among other things, how Republicans make ordinary people hate the government.

cowmix 1y ago

This is what people like Grover Norquist fought hard to stop. They want every part of the tax collecting/paying process as hard as possible: https://priceonomics.com/the-stanford-professor-who-fought-the-tax-lobby/ https://priceonomics.com/the-stanford-professor-who-fought-t...

SLWW 1y ago

Income tax was supposed to end after we recovered from the Civil War anyhow, so it's, by any other definition applied to any corp or business, unjust theft (like autobilling someone after they paid off their loan). So of course it doesn't work. Also plausible deniability, if you overpay, rarely will the gov give you back what you give them, and if they do, it's months afterwards.

gramie 1y ago

The Canadian government recently announced automated tax filing. I assume that you still file your exemptions because there is no way (I hope) they know what charities I am donating to!

estimator7292 1y ago

> Why doesn't the government just tell me what I owe[?] Mostly because of: > TurboTax’s 20-year fight to stop Americans from filing taxes for free

hexbin010 1y ago

[dead]

ThePowerOfFuet 1y ago

>Why doesn't the government just tell me what I owe, and if I think they've calculated incorrectly, only then do I do my own filing or hire a CPA or whatever else? This is precisely how it works in both EU countries in which I've lived.

GuB-42 1y ago

It is like with all laws. There isn't an agent following your every step telling you what to do and what not to do. You are supposed to know the law and abide by it, and they will occasionally have people make sure of it, be it by police or tax auditors. For taxes, how is the government supposed to know about the work you did in exchange for cash? Or make a difference between a vacation and a tax destructible business trip. They will sometimes look into it if they suspect fraud, but they have no way of knowing exactly what you owe beforehand, and that's a good thing, surveillance is as bad as it is right now, not mentioning the costs. The best they can do, and that's how it is done in most countries, is to tell you "according to what we know, you owe us XXX", but it only works in the simple cases, like for those whose only income is their salary. If they missed something and their estimation is wrong, you must declare it or you can be in trouble. It is just a convenience, you still need to do your taxes correctly and you are responsible for it. One may argue the rules could be simpler, but they are complex because the world is complex, and even small changes can make or break industries.

RiverStone 1y ago

The government does tell you the information it has. Most people don’t realize this and therefore aren’t optimizing their taxes, but it is a trick known by accountants. Each year, you should file an extension and then wait for your IRS to publish its transcript (in May I believe) that shows all the wage/income and other info the IRS has on you.