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Wow. $15 billion is an astronomical, nearly unfathomable amount of money in Cambodia. This must have been a huge operation. It's almost 1/3 of the country's ent

Wow. $15 billion is an astronomical, nearly unfathomable amount of money in Cambodia. This must have been a huge operation. It's almost 1/3 of the country's entire GDP! Well done DOJ. Hopefully the victims get their money back.

tonyhart7 1y ago
their business is scam center that by definition is not counted by GDP anyway
- alecsm 1y ago
  Which makes it worse. A scamming operation that is 1/3 of the GDP is huuuuuuge.
  - Muromec 1y ago
    It’s apples to oranges really. You confuse turnover with capital here.
    - alecsm 1y ago
      I know the comparison is not correct but lets you see the magnitude of the operation.
- IanCal 1y ago
  That’s not necessarily true, though may be for Cambodia. GDP can include black market activities but countries differ in whether they include specific ones and how.
  - bilekas 1y ago
    Right, it's not black market if you eventually pay some taxes on it somewhere. Dare we call it washed money, and for our American friends in the audience, laundered money.
    - boredumb 1y ago
      as a pedantic aside Americans use the term washed or washing money interchangeably with laundering or laundered money
    - shkkmo 1y ago
      Laundering the proceeds from a black market transaction doesn't make the black market transaction not a black market transaction.
  - HPsquared 1y ago
    Does it even count in there though? Fraud isn't a normal transaction. It's the same as theft, which is simply a transfer from one person to another. An act of fraud or theft doesn't represent creation of value the way profit from legitimate transactions do for "black market" goods/services (even if the goods/services are illegal).
    - spacebanana7 1y ago
      If we're just talking about the formula of GDP = gov spend + investment + consumption + net exports, then scamming foreigners would be captured under the "net exports" category. Similar to remittances, which are quite significant components of GDP for some countries. Admittedly it's doubtful whether this kind of activity would be captured by official statistics.
      - HPsquared 1y ago
        Remittances aren't counted towards GDP either. The funds can contribute indirectly, as consumption or investment, if spent locally. This $15B didn't make it that far, though.
    - IanCal 1y ago
      That’s a good point, transferring of assets isn’t counted - although if it’s imports perhaps that’s different. The cost of scamming may be counted, paying people to perform scams certainly could be depending on the type of calculation you do. I know it’s a bit of a get out clause but it’s at least not obvious to me that this wouldn’t contribute, certainly the illegal nature is not a blocker for being counted in GDP.
- bilekas 1y ago
  That money would have flowed somewhere, also I'm not sure OP was talking about impacting the GDP just quantizing it. For Cambodia, it's an extraordinary amount of money. Actually for anywhere it's a ridiculous amount of money.
- jowea 1y ago
  There are countries that count illegal activities in their GDP estimates. And should their state sponsored criminal activities count for North Korean GDP for example?
ValveFan6969 1y ago
The victims getting their money back would defeat the whole purpose of Bitcoin. No one knows who originally owned it. How about cash it out and trickle it down to us... or is all that just gonna magically disappear?
- IshKebab 1y ago
  Well you could just reverse all the transactions. But they probably won't do that.
  - itake 1y ago
    not really? presumably many people transfer via platforms like Coinbase that use a shared wallet system. You can't just "send the money back where it came from" as those wallets might not actually be controlled by the funds owner.
    - lazide 1y ago
      Coin base keeps transaction logs. Unless this went through a mixer, Bitcoin is quite transparent. Still easier to just transfer it all to the Treasury of course and screw the victims which is probably what will happen.
      - h33t-l4x0r 1y ago
        Even if the victims get their money back it would only account for 25% or so because the price of BTC has moved so far since they lost it. (I think many victims will successfully petition for their money back)
        lazide 1y ago
        In theory the court should give them back the actual bitcoin, not the monetary equivalent at the time. In a just world, anyway. Based on current judicial trends, they’ll probably get Coinbase coupons worth 50% of a different coin or something.
vkou 1y ago
Wait, hold on, I thought the promise of crypto was that: 1. The feds can't take your money. 2. Once your money's gone, it's gone. If criminals can't count on #1 holding true, and their victims can't count on #2 holding true, what is even the point of it?
- Muromec 1y ago
  They used the forbidden technique of 5€ wrench.
  - whatevaa 1y ago
    It's not even forbidden, anyone can use it.
    - sethammons 1y ago
      Beating someone with a wrench feels unlawful/forbidden pretty much everywhere.
      - Muromec 1y ago
        Unless you are FBI of course
        pixl97 1y ago
        I mean, I don't disagree, but there are far more government agencies around the world that will beat you with a wrench first.
        Muromec 1y ago
        If you are lucky, then the three letters are from Latin alphabet, but you never know
        mminer237 1y ago
        Uh, no, a judge can put you in prison, but it's still very much unlawful for the FBI to beat you with a wrench.
xnx 1y ago
> 1/3 of the country's entire GDP $15 billion is a huge number to be sure, but it's unclear from the article how many years it took to acquire.
- postexitus 1y ago
  So should we praise the gang's money saving habits?
  - xnx 1y ago
    No. Just point out as others have that $15 billion vs GDP isn't a likes comparison.
  - CaptainOfCoit 1y ago
    Probably not, but we should probably not compare a total (potentially across years) with something that is measured yearly like GDP, kind of misleading.
  - jeltz 1y ago
    No, isn't it more likely about them earning money quicker than they are able to launder it?
  - gosub100 1y ago
    I think they mean the bulk of the sum came from the rise of BTC, moreso than the scam. Like a purse snatcher steals a total of $200 and buys lottery tickets making their proceeds worth $40k.
- abenga 1y ago
  Pitfalls of comparing flows with stocks.
- sorz 1y ago
  Better be "three months of the country's GDP".
Cthulhu_ 1y ago
Compared to Cambodia, sure, but it's an international crime gang, with this particular one being just one branch. I wonder if this was their biggest hoard or if they had more? Really poor financial management to have all that money concentrated that much though. It either means they dropped the ball bigly, or this is spare change for them... although Bitcoin's market cap is $2.24 trillion at the moment, $15 billion is a significant chunk of that.
- itopaloglu83 1y ago
  In $5 wrench we trust. - Bitcoin
  - kevinak 1y ago
    That doesn't appear to be how they seized the funds though, the criminal hasn't been caught so they must have hacked his devices to gain access to the private keys. No $5 wrench involved.
    - ur-whale 1y ago
      Which just goes to show that custody is a hard and almost always under-estimated problem.
      - kevinak 1y ago
        It is, but it's not so hard that you can't figure it out to keep your 15 billion safe.
        gosub100 1y ago
        There is no honor among pig butchers.
        codedokode 1y ago
        There is no honor among people in general.
bapak 1y ago
Does not apply. Cambodia is just a proxy, a land where the Chinese gangs act with impunity. Earned with slave work, money is laundered in casinos and no Cambodian is seeing a cent of it. Might as well say "nearly unfathomable amount of money in Congo" because that's just how disconnected the money is to the country.
- jacknews 1y ago
  No, some Cambodians are seeing a very sizeable benefit, probably the standard 20% that the leading family cream off of any major investment in the country. And BTW it is not just the Chinese, there are innumerable other operators, including a whole bunch of smaller 'startups'. They operate because Cambodia openly accepts it, and takes a cut, not because they are somehow so clever as to disguise the real business being conducted in closed-up apartment blocks.
weird-eye-issue 1y ago
They operate in places like Cambodia but it's the Chinese There's areas in Laos and Cambodia they control where it literally operates under a different set of laws. One of the areas, I think in Laos, Americans aren't even allowed to enter
- forgotoldacc 1y ago
  The facilities aren't even remotely hidden so it's fair to blame Cambodia for allowing it. They have towns built up around them with restaurants and shops and normal economic functions to support the people running these slave towers. A good chunk of the money is flowing back into China, but there's definitely a good bit that seeps out into the Cambodian economy. Hence why Cambodia's government is more than happy to let it operate. In the case of Myanmar, I think their biggest problem is the country has been in a war for decades with loads of various factions and it's too chaotic for any government to attempt to get anything under control.
  - weird-eye-issue 1y ago
    Yes a huge chunk of the blame falls on Cambodia, Laos, Myanmar, etc And bordering countries like Thailand are running into issues where people are getting trafficked through Thailand to these other countries. So it's actually ruining the reputation of Thailand and lots of Chinese people are wary of traveling to Thailand because of it To provide a bit more context what happens is Chinese people will give fake job offers to their fellow Chinese and then basically kidnap them when they arrive to Thailand and take them to another country to work in a scam center
pantalaimon 1y ago
Khesrau Behroz did an amazing podcast about those operations (in German though) [0]. Basically when there was a crack down on providers of illegal sports betting in China, they went abroad and diversified. The betting operation is used to launder the money from those scam operations and betting is still immensely popular in China and done via VPN. Those East Asian sport betting providers are sponsors of many Champions League clubs so their (often changing) names get know the gamblers in China watching the games. So yea, there are massive amounts of money involved. [0] https://www.rbb-online.de/legion/ https://www.rbb-online.de/legion/
- cjonas 1y ago
  There's an interesting "Search Engine" podcast (in English)[0]. Apparently a lot of the people doing the actual scamming are human trafficked and being held in compounds against their will. [0]https://www.searchengine.show/whos-behind-these-scammy-text-messages-weve-all-been-getting/ https://www.searchengine.show/whos-behind-these-scammy-text-...
  - ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
    From what I understand, a number of them are Chinese nationals. I suspect that taking Chinese slaves might not be a great idea. China tends to carry a big stick; especially in that region. Wouldn't surprise me, if the DOJ had some "under-the-table" help from Chinese sources, but not in any way that anyone can prove. If you don't want to sign up for a podcast, John Oliver did a fairly decent bit about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLPpl2ISKTg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLPpl2ISKTg
    - goatsi 1y ago
      China permitted/sponsored rebels to seize a decent chunk of the Myanmar side of the Chinese/Myanmar border after a number of Chinese citizens (allegedly including some undercover Chinese police) were killed in a scam compound there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_1027 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_1027
    - 1y ago
sangel21 1y ago
Laos, Myanmar, Cambodia thailand also catched a few. I would not be surprised if they take advantage of westerners as well. 15Billion++ is a big incentive. I heard an agent got court for opening bank accounts for them in Pattaya, over 500 accounts. We have had crackdowns on banking here in Thailand ever since.
butterfi 1y ago
I'm very curious what happens to that money. I very much doubt any of the actual victims will see it.
- yieldcrv 1y ago
  To the Bitcoin Strategic Reserve it goes!
graybeardhacker 1y ago
Not sure if you're joking about the victims getting their money back. In case you're not, they won't. The DOJ adds seized crypto to the American crypto reserve. https://www.whitehouse.gov/fact-sheets/2025/03/fact-sheet-president-donald-j-trump-establishes-the-strategic-bitcoin-reserve-and-u-s-digital-asset-stockpile/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/fact-sheets/2025/03/fact-sheet-pr... From the webpage: " The Executive Order begins to resolve the current disjointed handling of cryptocurrencies seized through forfeiture by, and scattered across, various Federal agencies. Currently, no clear policy exists for managing these assets, leading to a lack of accountability and inadequate exploration of options to centralize, secure, or maximize their value. Taking affirmative steps to centralize ownership, control, and management of these assets within the Federal government will ensure proper oversight, accurate tracking, and a cohesive approach to managing the government’s cryptocurrency holdings. This move harnesses the power of digital assets for national prosperity, rather than letting them languish in limbo. "
- grafmax 1y ago
  It’s almost like one criminal organization stealing from another.
- MagicMoonlight 1y ago
  Well how would you know who to return it to? It's crypto, the genius system which will totally replace money, which doesn't allow you to track simple things like transaction history and remedy fraud like this. It's not like a cambodian pig butchering operation is going to keep detailed ledgers of who they scammed and for how much.
  - Reason077 1y ago
    > ”Well how would you know who to return it to? It's crypto, … which doesn't allow you to track simple things like transaction history” That’s not actually correct. The blockchain contains a permanent, immutable, and public record of every transaction. Obviously you also need a way to connect a given wallet ID (address) back to it’s owner, but if transactions originated from regulated platforms like Binance then they will have those records thanks to KYC/AML rules. If the transaction originated from a private wallet, a fraud victim could simply submit proof of their wallet ID as part of their claim.

tonyhart7 1y ago

their business is scam center that by definition is not counted by GDP anyway

alecsm 1y ago
Which makes it worse. A scamming operation that is 1/3 of the GDP is huuuuuuge.
- Muromec 1y ago
  It’s apples to oranges really. You confuse turnover with capital here.
  - alecsm 1y ago
    I know the comparison is not correct but lets you see the magnitude of the operation.
IanCal 1y ago
That’s not necessarily true, though may be for Cambodia. GDP can include black market activities but countries differ in whether they include specific ones and how.
- bilekas 1y ago
  Right, it's not black market if you eventually pay some taxes on it somewhere. Dare we call it washed money, and for our American friends in the audience, laundered money.
  - boredumb 1y ago
    as a pedantic aside Americans use the term washed or washing money interchangeably with laundering or laundered money
  - shkkmo 1y ago
    Laundering the proceeds from a black market transaction doesn't make the black market transaction not a black market transaction.
- HPsquared 1y ago
  Does it even count in there though? Fraud isn't a normal transaction. It's the same as theft, which is simply a transfer from one person to another. An act of fraud or theft doesn't represent creation of value the way profit from legitimate transactions do for "black market" goods/services (even if the goods/services are illegal).
  - spacebanana7 1y ago
    If we're just talking about the formula of GDP = gov spend + investment + consumption + net exports, then scamming foreigners would be captured under the "net exports" category. Similar to remittances, which are quite significant components of GDP for some countries. Admittedly it's doubtful whether this kind of activity would be captured by official statistics.
    - HPsquared 1y ago
      Remittances aren't counted towards GDP either. The funds can contribute indirectly, as consumption or investment, if spent locally. This $15B didn't make it that far, though.
  - IanCal 1y ago
    That’s a good point, transferring of assets isn’t counted - although if it’s imports perhaps that’s different. The cost of scamming may be counted, paying people to perform scams certainly could be depending on the type of calculation you do. I know it’s a bit of a get out clause but it’s at least not obvious to me that this wouldn’t contribute, certainly the illegal nature is not a blocker for being counted in GDP.
bilekas 1y ago
That money would have flowed somewhere, also I'm not sure OP was talking about impacting the GDP just quantizing it. For Cambodia, it's an extraordinary amount of money. Actually for anywhere it's a ridiculous amount of money.
jowea 1y ago
There are countries that count illegal activities in their GDP estimates. And should their state sponsored criminal activities count for North Korean GDP for example?

ValveFan6969 1y ago

The victims getting their money back would defeat the whole purpose of Bitcoin. No one knows who originally owned it. How about cash it out and trickle it down to us... or is all that just gonna magically disappear?

IshKebab 1y ago
Well you could just reverse all the transactions. But they probably won't do that.
- itake 1y ago
  not really? presumably many people transfer via platforms like Coinbase that use a shared wallet system. You can't just "send the money back where it came from" as those wallets might not actually be controlled by the funds owner.
  - lazide 1y ago
    Coin base keeps transaction logs. Unless this went through a mixer, Bitcoin is quite transparent. Still easier to just transfer it all to the Treasury of course and screw the victims which is probably what will happen.
    - h33t-l4x0r 1y ago
      Even if the victims get their money back it would only account for 25% or so because the price of BTC has moved so far since they lost it. (I think many victims will successfully petition for their money back)
      - lazide 1y ago
        In theory the court should give them back the actual bitcoin, not the monetary equivalent at the time. In a just world, anyway. Based on current judicial trends, they’ll probably get Coinbase coupons worth 50% of a different coin or something.

vkou 1y ago

Wait, hold on, I thought the promise of crypto was that: 1. The feds can't take your money. 2. Once your money's gone, it's gone. If criminals can't count on #1 holding true, and their victims can't count on #2 holding true, what is even the point of it?

Muromec 1y ago
They used the forbidden technique of 5€ wrench.
- whatevaa 1y ago
  It's not even forbidden, anyone can use it.
  - sethammons 1y ago
    Beating someone with a wrench feels unlawful/forbidden pretty much everywhere.
    - Muromec 1y ago
      Unless you are FBI of course
      - pixl97 1y ago
        I mean, I don't disagree, but there are far more government agencies around the world that will beat you with a wrench first.
        Muromec 1y ago
        If you are lucky, then the three letters are from Latin alphabet, but you never know
      - mminer237 1y ago
        Uh, no, a judge can put you in prison, but it's still very much unlawful for the FBI to beat you with a wrench.

xnx 1y ago

> 1/3 of the country's entire GDP $15 billion is a huge number to be sure, but it's unclear from the article how many years it took to acquire.

postexitus 1y ago
So should we praise the gang's money saving habits?
- xnx 1y ago
  No. Just point out as others have that $15 billion vs GDP isn't a likes comparison.
- CaptainOfCoit 1y ago
  Probably not, but we should probably not compare a total (potentially across years) with something that is measured yearly like GDP, kind of misleading.
- jeltz 1y ago
  No, isn't it more likely about them earning money quicker than they are able to launder it?
- gosub100 1y ago
  I think they mean the bulk of the sum came from the rise of BTC, moreso than the scam. Like a purse snatcher steals a total of $200 and buys lottery tickets making their proceeds worth $40k.
abenga 1y ago
Pitfalls of comparing flows with stocks.
sorz 1y ago
Better be "three months of the country's GDP".

Cthulhu_ 1y ago

Compared to Cambodia, sure, but it's an international crime gang, with this particular one being just one branch. I wonder if this was their biggest hoard or if they had more? Really poor financial management to have all that money concentrated that much though. It either means they dropped the ball bigly, or this is spare change for them... although Bitcoin's market cap is $2.24 trillion at the moment, $15 billion is a significant chunk of that.

itopaloglu83 1y ago
In $5 wrench we trust. - Bitcoin
- kevinak 1y ago
  That doesn't appear to be how they seized the funds though, the criminal hasn't been caught so they must have hacked his devices to gain access to the private keys. No $5 wrench involved.
  - ur-whale 1y ago
    Which just goes to show that custody is a hard and almost always under-estimated problem.
    - kevinak 1y ago
      It is, but it's not so hard that you can't figure it out to keep your 15 billion safe.
      - gosub100 1y ago
        There is no honor among pig butchers.
        codedokode 1y ago
        There is no honor among people in general.

bapak 1y ago

Does not apply. Cambodia is just a proxy, a land where the Chinese gangs act with impunity. Earned with slave work, money is laundered in casinos and no Cambodian is seeing a cent of it. Might as well say "nearly unfathomable amount of money in Congo" because that's just how disconnected the money is to the country.

jacknews 1y ago
No, some Cambodians are seeing a very sizeable benefit, probably the standard 20% that the leading family cream off of any major investment in the country. And BTW it is not just the Chinese, there are innumerable other operators, including a whole bunch of smaller 'startups'. They operate because Cambodia openly accepts it, and takes a cut, not because they are somehow so clever as to disguise the real business being conducted in closed-up apartment blocks.

weird-eye-issue 1y ago

They operate in places like Cambodia but it's the Chinese There's areas in Laos and Cambodia they control where it literally operates under a different set of laws. One of the areas, I think in Laos, Americans aren't even allowed to enter

forgotoldacc 1y ago
The facilities aren't even remotely hidden so it's fair to blame Cambodia for allowing it. They have towns built up around them with restaurants and shops and normal economic functions to support the people running these slave towers. A good chunk of the money is flowing back into China, but there's definitely a good bit that seeps out into the Cambodian economy. Hence why Cambodia's government is more than happy to let it operate. In the case of Myanmar, I think their biggest problem is the country has been in a war for decades with loads of various factions and it's too chaotic for any government to attempt to get anything under control.
- weird-eye-issue 1y ago
  Yes a huge chunk of the blame falls on Cambodia, Laos, Myanmar, etc And bordering countries like Thailand are running into issues where people are getting trafficked through Thailand to these other countries. So it's actually ruining the reputation of Thailand and lots of Chinese people are wary of traveling to Thailand because of it To provide a bit more context what happens is Chinese people will give fake job offers to their fellow Chinese and then basically kidnap them when they arrive to Thailand and take them to another country to work in a scam center

pantalaimon 1y ago

Khesrau Behroz did an amazing podcast about those operations (in German though) [0]. Basically when there was a crack down on providers of illegal sports betting in China, they went abroad and diversified. The betting operation is used to launder the money from those scam operations and betting is still immensely popular in China and done via VPN. Those East Asian sport betting providers are sponsors of many Champions League clubs so their (often changing) names get know the gamblers in China watching the games. So yea, there are massive amounts of money involved. [0] https://www.rbb-online.de/legion/ https://www.rbb-online.de/legion/

cjonas 1y ago
There's an interesting "Search Engine" podcast (in English)[0]. Apparently a lot of the people doing the actual scamming are human trafficked and being held in compounds against their will. [0]https://www.searchengine.show/whos-behind-these-scammy-text-messages-weve-all-been-getting/ https://www.searchengine.show/whos-behind-these-scammy-text-...
- ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
  From what I understand, a number of them are Chinese nationals. I suspect that taking Chinese slaves might not be a great idea. China tends to carry a big stick; especially in that region. Wouldn't surprise me, if the DOJ had some "under-the-table" help from Chinese sources, but not in any way that anyone can prove. If you don't want to sign up for a podcast, John Oliver did a fairly decent bit about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLPpl2ISKTg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLPpl2ISKTg
  - goatsi 1y ago
    China permitted/sponsored rebels to seize a decent chunk of the Myanmar side of the Chinese/Myanmar border after a number of Chinese citizens (allegedly including some undercover Chinese police) were killed in a scam compound there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_1027 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_1027
  - 1y ago

sangel21 1y ago

Laos, Myanmar, Cambodia thailand also catched a few. I would not be surprised if they take advantage of westerners as well. 15Billion++ is a big incentive. I heard an agent got court for opening bank accounts for them in Pattaya, over 500 accounts. We have had crackdowns on banking here in Thailand ever since.

butterfi 1y ago

I'm very curious what happens to that money. I very much doubt any of the actual victims will see it.

yieldcrv 1y ago
To the Bitcoin Strategic Reserve it goes!

graybeardhacker 1y ago

Not sure if you're joking about the victims getting their money back. In case you're not, they won't. The DOJ adds seized crypto to the American crypto reserve. https://www.whitehouse.gov/fact-sheets/2025/03/fact-sheet-president-donald-j-trump-establishes-the-strategic-bitcoin-reserve-and-u-s-digital-asset-stockpile/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/fact-sheets/2025/03/fact-sheet-pr... From the webpage: " The Executive Order begins to resolve the current disjointed handling of cryptocurrencies seized through forfeiture by, and scattered across, various Federal agencies. Currently, no clear policy exists for managing these assets, leading to a lack of accountability and inadequate exploration of options to centralize, secure, or maximize their value. Taking affirmative steps to centralize ownership, control, and management of these assets within the Federal government will ensure proper oversight, accurate tracking, and a cohesive approach to managing the government’s cryptocurrency holdings. This move harnesses the power of digital assets for national prosperity, rather than letting them languish in limbo. "

grafmax 1y ago
It’s almost like one criminal organization stealing from another.
MagicMoonlight 1y ago
Well how would you know who to return it to? It's crypto, the genius system which will totally replace money, which doesn't allow you to track simple things like transaction history and remedy fraud like this. It's not like a cambodian pig butchering operation is going to keep detailed ledgers of who they scammed and for how much.
- Reason077 1y ago
  > ”Well how would you know who to return it to? It's crypto, … which doesn't allow you to track simple things like transaction history” That’s not actually correct. The blockchain contains a permanent, immutable, and public record of every transaction. Obviously you also need a way to connect a given wallet ID (address) back to it’s owner, but if transactions originated from regulated platforms like Binance then they will have those records thanks to KYC/AML rules. If the transaction originated from a private wallet, a fraud victim could simply submit proof of their wallet ID as part of their claim.