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This is chilling (from https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/2024-4xe-loss-of-motive-power-after-10-10-25-ota-update.157939/ https://www.jlwranglerforu
by EvanAnderson 1y ago
This is chilling (from https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/2024-4xe-loss-of-motive-power-after-10-10-25-ota-update.157939/ https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/2024-4xe-loss...):
> On my drive home I abruptly had absolutely no acceleration, the gear indicator on the dash started flashing, the power mode indicator disappeared, an alert said shift into park and press the brake + start button, and the check engine light and red wrench lights came on. I was still able to steer and brake with power steering and brakes for maybe 30 seconds before those went out too. After putting it into park and pressing the brake and start button it started back up and I could drive it normally for a little bit, but it happened two more times on my 1.5 mi drive home.
If that happened on the highway I could easily see people being killed.
- amluto 1y agoOn a reasonably well constructed car, loss of power steering at highway speeds is barely noticeable. Loss of power brakes is a different story. An inability to actually get all the way off the highway before running out of speed could also be quite dangerous, and a loss of power steering can indeed make it quite difficult to maneuver at low speeds.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- Eddy_Viscosity2 1y agoIf its drive-by-wire steering, then isn't loss of power steering the same as loss of all steering?
- mikestew 1y agoIf its drive-by-wire steering… Which it isn’t. What production passenger vehicles have no steering column? (EDIT: oh, yeah, forgot about Cybertruck.)
- theluketaylor 1y agoThere are many passenger vehicles with brake-by-wire, but only one I'm aware of with steer-by-wire: cybertruck
- lsaferite 1y agoCybertruck for one. I searched and found several, some without any manual backup. That's crazy to me.
- inamberclad 1y agoThe cyber truck, tragically.
- qwerpy 1y agoI’ve really enjoyed it on mine. Steer by wire enables progressive steering. Having to turn the wheel over and over in other cars to maneuver in parking lots seems laughably primitive now in comparison.
- inamberclad 1y agoEnjoy your nazimobile
- qwerpy 1y ago:P
- constantcrying 1y agoE.g. the cybertruck. It will also be more common as vehicles become more automated.
- PKop 1y agoTesla Cybertruck, Lexus RZ 450e, Nio ET9, Toyota bZ4X https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steer-by-wire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steer-by-wire
- deleted 1y ago
- lsaferite 1y agoI'm shocked (literally) to see there are production vehicles with steer-by-wire. Couple that with OTA updates and you have a vehicle I'd refuse to ride in, much less purchase.
- 20after4 1y agoI think most recently developed large commercial passenger aircraft are completely fly by wire with most controls lacking any physically interlinked backup. Thinking of this somehow reminded me of the most harrowing aircraft disaster that I've ever read about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232 It's both tragic because half of the passengers were killed but also miraculous that anyone survived at all.
- jmount 1y agoHopefully I am not too naive, but I think aircraft safety redundancy remains above retail car standards. Also, in aircraft they "have time to solve some problems", versus freeway bumper cars.
- 20after4 1y agoIndeed, but read the link I posted above if you're interested in a fascinating case of failed redundancy.
- sho_hn 1y agoEngaging version by the incredible Admiral Cloudberg: https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/fields-of-fortune-the-crash-of-united-airlines-flight-232-9cf65ae14c68 https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/fields-of-fortune-the-cr...
- raverbashing 1y agoYeah Also people say "oh what if fly-by-wire fails" well what if traditional hydraulic controls fail, which has happened plenty in the history of commercial aviation Everything can and will fail at some point No redundancy is redundancy enough in some %0.xx of cases. You can always reduce the number, but never make it 0
- OptionOfT 1y agoI think there are only a couple of cars that are steer-by-wire. The Infinity Q50, QX50, QX55 and QX60 (with backup that connects upon electric failure). Without backup, but triple redundancy, can be found in the Tesla Cybertruck. But I'd take that redundancy with a grain of salt as they don't have the best track record telling you the truth. That said, I really with companies would go back to the good old hydraulic steering. I don't need self-parking. But self-parking needs at least electric steering (with our without steering column).
- ajross 1y ago> self-parking needs at least electric steering You can control a hydraulic system automatically. That's literally what ABS braking is on the same cars already.
- dismalaf 1y agoWhich vehicles other than the Cybertruck have drive by wire steering? To my knowledge it's the only one without a physical steering column...
- pavel_lishin 1y agoI've lost power steering on my dad's F250 once. It was incredibly noticeable, since I had to crank the wheel like a ship from the age of sail in order to get onto the shoulder. I guess you could argue that it wasn't a reasonably well constructed car.
- slau 1y agoIn most situations a rudder is very, very gentle on the hands. You rarely have to crank down hard.
- collingreen 1y agoI think the comment was about how noticeably _far_ they needed to turn the wheel not how hard it was to turn it.
- amluto 1y agoThe amount you turn the wheel is identical [0] with or without power steering, unless perhaps you have one of the weird variable turn ratio systems. In a conventional power steering system, the steering wheel is linked to the wheels, and the power steering applies torque to help you turn the wheel but does not change the relationship between the steering wheel and the wheels. [0] Almost identical. The steering has some flex, and the amount it flexes is related to how much torque you apply. But this is a tiny effect.
- pavel_lishin 1y agoMy comment was explicitly about how physically difficult it was to turn the wheel. I had to crank it over far as well, in order to get off the highway.
- dzhiurgis 1y agoDid you mean tiller? These are hardly found on larger ships. I still like them for how much better you feel sail balance.
- NewJazz 1y agoLoss of power steering is definitely noticeable. Especially when it comes to getting off the freeway.
- rpdillon 1y agoLost power steering at highway speeds in my '91 Corolla a couple of decades back. Didn't notice on the highway (belt just made a loud pang and I thought "What the heck was that?"), but as soon as I took an exit and had to turn at the light, I seriously had to muscle the wheel over. Good learning experience about what power steering offers.
- EvanAnderson 1y agoLosing power steering would be no big deal. Anything that caused a sudden loss in forward velocity worries me. There's construction on the Interstate highway in my area with lanes that have no "breakdown" space ("contraflow" lanes). I would be terrified to lose power in that lane. I would be worried about getting rear-ended and / or causing a pile-up.
- AndrewKemendo 1y agoMy assumption is that the HN audience is not perfectly gaussian distribution of the population but probably not extremely far from it. So can someone who owns a modern car please help me understand why you would buy a car that has the mere capability to be remotely shut off? A vehicle is a personal safety device, that allows for independent travel away from bad things and towards safe things. That is one of the most critical aspects of a vehicle. Assuming that one of the most critical times you might need a vehicle is fleeing oppression, having a remote switch off as a possible vector to impede your escape is an existential threat and basically makes one of the core reasons to have a vehicle moot. My assumption is that most people are not thinking about their vehicle as one of the most critical tools for freedom. Having traveled the world and lived in war zones, vehicles are life savers and it’s insane to me that anyone would allow a possibility for someone else, specifically corporations and governments with major power levers, to even have the ability to stop that remotely.
- hamburglar 1y agoGiven the increasing computerization of modern cars, how could you possibly verify that this wasn’t possible on *any* car you buy? The only way I can think of is “don’t buy a car made within the last 25 years”
- lazide 1y agoThis is why some hardcore folks go ‘trad diesel’. Just glowplugs and mechanical parts! Notably, you have to go back to 70’ish era to get that kind of equipment. Almost everything else has some kind of ECU. Cellular connections didn’t start becoming somewhat common until the late 90’s-early 2000’s though.
- jimnotgym 1y agoThere is a UK company that puts engines with mechanical fuel pumps in newer cars. Particularly newer landrovers. £10k ugrade, and the last car you need ever buy. https://dieselpumpuk.com/ https://dieselpumpuk.com/
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- sethops1 1y agoIf I owned a Jeep I'd be dumping it off at CarMax first thing Monday morning.
- fencepost 1y agoI suspect it did happen on the highway for some people, that would explain the disabled Jeep sitting on the (minimal in construction zone) left shoulder of an expressway that I drove past yesterday. I just figured there'd been a fender bender in the already terrible construction traffic and the second vehicle hadn't moved on yet.
- cridenour 1y agoIt did happen on the highway to my sister. She was in the middle lane but luckily had the space to get to the side. Managed to start it again and get off the highway where it did it again and wouldn’t start after that. Very scary.
- dzhiurgis 1y agoSo would do a flat tyre and myriad of other things. Is software supposed to be perfect?
- sexy_seedbox 1y agoWhen car company cut corners and let junior developers do the vibe-updates...
- Waterluvian 1y agoThis is the kind of intolerable fuck up that should land professional engineers in legal peril. Does the NTSB or whoever have opinions on who gets to write code for safety critical systems and what obligations they have?
- robotnikman 1y agoThis is what MISRA C and AUTOSAR C++ is for. However I think those only apply to automotive components like the ECU, not the infotainment systems.
- remarkEon 1y agoBut by implication doesn’t this failure mode mean the infotainment system was interacting with the ECU in some manner?
- Waterluvian 1y agoThey must given they can react to vehicle speed or prevent access to things while driving etc. I always imagined that to be a fairly hardened API that not even I, after a drunken bender, equipped with Electron, could cause any harm with. Hmm. Would it be a read only API or can infotainment ever effect change to the vehicle’s operations? My Forester’s vehicle settings (eg. modifying the autonomy features) are managed by the crappy screen behind the wheel rather than the nice touch screen.
- floydnoel 1y agoThe “engineers” live in another country and are paid fifty cents an hour.