6 ms·

Datastar response to misunderstandings

108 points by alvaroflm 1y ago

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
dinkleberg 1y ago
The amount of front page space they’ve taken over the past few days is impressive.
- sudodevnull 1y ago
  Datastar author here. I'd really have rather it be about the tech or perf numbers. We pride ourselves on being fast and simple to a silly degree. The drama seems to be about anything but the underlying implementation. It makes me sad but eyeballs and hype so tend to bring people that do care in the long run.
- ksec 1y ago
  There is only three article on Datastar on HN. The original one was submitted by me. And I have no relation to them, I saw it as some alternative HTMX worth announcing. The 2nd one was submitted as original of the project, and also know as discover because of my submission article. Well known effect on HN. This one is a reply on controversy. Not surprised it ends up on HN also.
foofoo12 1y ago
All this fuss because there was no pricing link on the front DS page. There still isn't. There's nothing wrong with charging for your work, but it's common courtesy to be clear about pricing.
- BoredPositron 1y ago
  Discoverability is key, especially if you're charging for features, so placing them in reference is a bit odd. Calling it Pro doesn't help either if it's just a fancy donor button with some convenience sprinkled in. In any case, the general tone of the discussion on HN over the last three days and of the linked post doesn't make me want to use the product anyway. Everyone involved seems to like a bit of drama in their lifes.
  - andersmurphy 1y ago
    Yeah Pro is a terrible name.
- infamia 1y ago
  They think most folks should avoid Pro (it is just convenience fluff and some potential anti-patterns). Putting it on the front page would cause more harm than good?
- gazpachoking 1y ago
  Everything on the site is part of the core library which is free and open source, except for the stuff clearly marked as part of pro, which has a link to the pricing. (Plus, you really don't need pro, all the good stuff is free.) I think it would be more misleading to put pro on the front page, because that would make people think it's a subpar experience without it.
- naasking 1y ago
  They're not charging for the core, just for some plugins that many will not even use. I really don't see the problem.
scuff3d 1y ago
From what I can tell this seems like a classic example of devs just not communicating. On mobile I don't see any mention of a "Pro" option on the front page, and I don't see any "essays" about it either. Perhaps its buried in one of the essays, or maybe it's been communicated elsewhere, but if you're planning to launch a paid service around an open source app it's really a good idea to communicate the intent clearly BEFORE it's launched. If it just comes out of no where it feels to the community like they're getting rug pulled. On top of that terms like "Pro" and "Premium" and "Plus" have been ruined by predatory subscription models. Similar thing happened to Hyperland a while back and I think a lot has to do with the language used. That said, the terms seem perfectly reasonable, and a life long license is great. Though 300 dollars is going to cause sticker shock to a solo dev I think. Edit: To the devs I would recommended adding something like "All features of Datastar are free and open source. If you would like to support us consider donating or purchasing a lifetime license for access to <insert stuff here>", to the home page, maybe under the intro to the project" And drop the "Pro" branding.
- adfm 1y ago
  Definitely drop the "Pro" branding. Also, sub-$200 is pretty standard disposable income threshold to consider.
  - scuff3d 1y ago
    Yeah, I get their motivation for putting it all together, not wanting people to have FOMO and keeping the purchase options simple. But 300 bucks is a lot for an individual to spend. I feel like maybe breaking it up a bit and letting people pick what matters to them, but then you have to be careful not to let it feel like nickel and diming people. It's a tough line to walk.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
wewewedxfgdf 1y ago
"Allegations" implies criminal wrongdoing. "Response to entitled grumpy people" is probably more the mark. I would not tar my own project with the word "allegation" cause now you sound like a crim.
- antonvs 1y ago
  I would have said “response to misunderstandings”.
  - wewewedxfgdf 1y ago
    Agreed.
  - asddubs 1y ago
    that can read as passive aggressive though
    - JasonSage 1y ago
      That’s fine.
    - antonvs 1y ago
      People who are inclined to take offense at true statements are going to find ways to complain or take offense no matter what. We shouldn’t bend over backwards to accommodate that sort of behavior.
- Waterluvian 1y ago
  I think the suggested alternative is a considerably less professional way for one to conduct themselves.
- nchmy 1y ago
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  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
andersmurphy 1y ago
[flagged]
sgarland 1y ago
I hadn’t heard about Datastar until this brouhaha started, but having read everything, I’ve come to the conclusion that many people are entitled primadonnas. I really do not understand the outrage. Nothing has been taken away, it hasn’t been relicensed, etc. I saw someone complaining that extracting the commit prior to the change was “an arcane git command.” Are you serious? If you can’t figure out how to get the parent of a given commit, I have no idea how you stay employed in tech. I applaud the library author for making some money while also not rug-pulling. I personally think the license should be more copyleft, but if anything, the fact that it isn’t should negate anyone’s complaints. It’s almost as if there is a disturbingly large percentage of the community that has no idea how to code, doesn’t have the drive to learn - much less produce something original and market it - and just fakes it by vibe-coding on top of libraries and frameworks.
- ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
  > It’s almost as if there is a disturbingly large percentage of the community that has no idea how to code, doesn’t have the drive to learn - much less produce something original and market it - and just fakes it by vibe-coding on top of libraries and frameworks. Does seem that way.
- andersmurphy 1y ago
  I can't even imagine the drama if it was made free but GPL.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- fwip 1y ago
  > “an arcane git command.” If you're speaking of a comment towards the top of the last thread on HN about it, that comment was a sarcastic one. If not, please ignore.
- yencabulator 1y ago
  > Nothing has been taken away, it hasn’t been relicensed, etc. Meanwhile, at https://data-star.dev/essays/greedy_developer https://data-star.dev/essays/greedy_developer > For v1, we moved a handful of convenience plugins into Datastar Pro. So it's yet another rugpull, and the project is now Open Core. No sympathy from me.
stepbeek 1y ago
Reminds me of the Rich Hickey post Open Source is Not About You. https://gist.github.com/richhickey/1563cddea1002958f96e7ba9519972d9 https://gist.github.com/richhickey/1563cddea1002958f96e7ba95...
rovr138 1y ago
> For v1, we moved a handful of convenience plugins into Datastar Pro. and > Nothing you can build was taken from you; we set a support boundary If it was available on core, it was supported by them. If they moved it to Pro, isn't still supported by them? Not sure what the 'support boundary' is. If they didn't want to provide official support for it, wasn't 'core' the better solution for them anyway? Wouldn't pay require them to officially support it? ---- The ability to build is separate from the convenience of prebuilt. It is paywalling things. This is like saying, 'you can send electrical pulses to your computer, no need for an OS or tooling'. If everything is achievable through the same api, then the plugins wouldn't do anything. If they simplify things, then do they do add something, convenience. This is what plugins do, which they say aren't needed? But if they're not needed, what's Pro for? Yes, it's a 501c3... it's still commercial since they're selling... If it's stable, no v2, plugins aren't needed, it's a 501c3, there's no shares, equity... what's the point of Pro? "The goal is to fund the work and draw a clear support boundary," What are they funding? By adding a Pro subscription, what's the incentive to work on core? --- As an outsider it just looks as a way to justify Pro. But it's not a technical explanation or explains the maintenance policy.
- infamia 1y ago
  The data attributes they moved to Pro was mostly a result of watching folks use Datastar and seeing the anti-patterns develop. Those anti-patterns have been moved to Pro. > If it's stable, no v2, plugins aren't needed, it's a 501c3, there's no shares, equity... what's the point of Pro? "The goal is to fund the work and draw a clear support boundary," What are they funding? I assume it is because charitable organizations need accountants and other things (along with all the other stuff like web hosting and the like).
  - sudodevnull 1y ago
    Ironically Non-profits have to show profits. We don't particularly want devs money as much as Teams/Enterprise to pay for tooling. Inspector make life easier and more stuff (like Stellar is in route).
  - rovr138 1y ago
leoh 1y ago
I think it’s not fair that we expect every developer tool to be OSS. Most things that are fully OSS like react, typescript, etc. and even Linux to a large degree are supported by humongous amounts of cash from large tech companies. When a smaller firm devoted to developer tools like datastar decides to monetize, moreover, they are doing so without leaning on ad monetization, which many big firms rely upon, or other means that are not particularly nice. I think it’s really important we cut folks working on paid dev tools a break. The alternative is that we end up in a world that is largely merely defined by huge tech companies.
- leros 1y ago
  It's true for things other than developer tools. I built a free utility that became popular and people started asking for more features. I spent several months working full-time on building out improvement and put 10% of the new features behind a paywall. I took nothing away and made 90% of the new features free too. The stuff I put behind a paywall is stuff I thought would only apply to professional business users. Just the fact that I had paid features made people upset. I got a ton of angry emails asking why the tool was no longer free. I also used to make some money via donations through BuyMeACoffee and those nearly completely stopped.
  - sudodevnull 1y ago
    Sorry to hear that man. It does really sour the ideas of the MIT license especially. It's a social problem and won't be solved by tech. My response now is a pretty hard line, cool... then fork it. Anything softer doesn't matter cause if they really cared they'd already be actively helping.
  - mauvehaus 1y ago
    If I throw code up on GitHub, I try to be real clear that if it's good enough for me, it's done as far as I'm concerned[0]. I'm also licensed under WTFPL. I figure if that scares off any commercial interests, so much the better. You're probably a lot more fully baked than I am, so this path may not work for you. [0] https://github.com/longwalkwoodworking/angle-dangler#what-if-theres-a-bug https://github.com/longwalkwoodworking/angle-dangler#what-if...
abrookewood 1y ago
I don't really have an opinion on DHH either, but that speech nails it. Open Source Devs need to eat - stop flooding them with unrealistic demands and whinging when they ask to get paid.
- mardifoufs 1y ago
  I don't think anyone would be pissed at projects that ask to get paid upfront. When you provide a product for free, then switch the features to a paid model, it's normal that people will talk about it and won't be super happy about the situation. Sure they aren't entitled to anything, but maintainers aren't entitled to a criticism-free discussion of their project just because the project is open source (in part) either.
  - sudodevnull 1y ago
    Oh don't worry, it's made it much less likely that I never develop in the open ever again
andersmurphy 1y ago
As a Datastar user who uses the free version I don't want the Pro features to be made free as they would just add bloat to the bundle. It's already borderline massive at 10-11kb. Like preact is 3kb.
nz3000 1y ago
Internet drama aside, if you develop applications for the web, know Go, and are at all curious about what you can do with Datastar I have a boilerplate / template project that I've had much success with called northstar. In it you'll find a TODO app, and some smaller examples that show off some patterns of success when using Datastar. It's intended to be hacked on / apart, so bring your own patterns of success and put on your hacker hat. - https://github.com/zangster300/northstar https://github.com/zangster300/northstar
godatastargo 1y ago
[flagged]
- sudodevnull 1y ago
  Thank you so much! The core team does realize there is a silent majority that doesn't get involved in the drama. Sorry you had to make an account to say that. We really do appreciate it!
  - godatastargo 1y ago
    No problem! You were quite responsive to my questions about datastar on some other social media outlet. Time for me to do what I can!
HiPhish 1y ago
I am getting really mixed signals here. First the Pro features used to be free (libre), but now they no longer are. The features are supposedly not really needed, but then they being sold. What's with the Pro bundler? Why do we need a bundler in the first place, what is it supposed to do that a regular bundler like Vite cannot? And now there are two more frameworks (Rocket and Stellar) that won't be Free and Open Source at all? If this is just about providing monetary support for the project then just do what everyone else is doing: sell support or pre-built copy&past examples. If the plugins are nothing special and can be replaced by a one-liner I would be even more pissed after paying 300$ for them. Either these guys are really, really bad at communication, or this smells really fishy. If anything, this blog post makes me trust them even less that they won't enshittify Datastart by moving more stuff to Pro and having the FLOSS version be the ghetto version.
- wolfgangbabad 1y ago
  The author is very aggressive and pushy, he makes fun of people who disagree with him on Discord and now even here on hackernews. Notice the pattern of his comments/responses - he tends to belittle people. On Discord he use vulgar language - here he is more careful to maintain image. But it still permeates through his comments no matter how hard he tries to mask his true self.
  - sudodevnull 1y ago
    We tell people to show code and to prove their positions instead of asserting them blindly. If you got pushback it's 100% because of that
- naasking 1y ago
  > I am getting really mixed signals here. First the Pro features used to be free (libre), but now they no longer are. That's not my understanding. From what I read, the open source "features" were incomplete, the Pro versions are polished products. I don't understand the rest of your post, don't use a bundler if you don't see the point. Datastar is tiny and modular, any proprietary features could be replaced by open source version, you don't need to depend on anything proprietary. What's the risk you're worried about here? Finally, selling support for a tiny library that's well tested, robust and fast is not viable. What do you see as the business case here?
renewiltord 1y ago
Pretty typical for people to start campaigns for "open source developers must be compensated" while simultaneously losing their shit about this. Hahaha. Oh yeah, please make it donorware so that I can then give you $5 every ten years and say "I donate to open source projects I like". Haha.
- andersmurphy 1y ago
  It's wild this comment is getting downvotes.
  - crote 1y ago
    Probably because there's a huge chasm between "open source developers shouldn't starve" and "any form of monetization, no matter how hostile to the community, is completely acceptable".
    - renewiltord 1y ago
      Yeah, and apparently completely optional features that are entirely new are "hostile to the community". LOL Hey, OSS dev, would you mind putting only features no one would ever want behind a paywall? No no, I know you could put convenience ones that could be replaced with a one-liner behind a paywall and no one would be hurt but that would be hostile to the community. Ideally, exactly zero people should want the thing you make a pro feature.
      - andersmurphy 1y ago
        The whole OSS support model people are suggested Datastar adopt is bad as it actively encourages you to write less good software so you can offer paid support.
jemiluv8 1y ago
Get ready for hard forks
odie5533 1y ago
Whatever slight they received has been more than recompensed with exposure. We've had three HN stories in two days on this.
- andersmurphy 1y ago
  Four. Pretty funny. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45536000 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45536000 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45536618 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45536618 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45537372 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45537372
- BoredPositron 1y ago
  To be honest, for me it's the opposite, judging by the developer's comments in other threads about the topic. He's not as nice as his responses in this one would suggest. Edit: Just some examples to not make empty statements. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45540077 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45540077 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45540140 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45540140 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45542425 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45542425 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45538639 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45538639 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45540093 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45540093 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45540824 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45540824 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45539376 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45539376 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45539942 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45539942 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45539821 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45539821
  - bigyabai 1y ago
    Wow. This is far in excess of "Torvalds hazing" and lands solidly into the "you are uninvited to my next project" bucket, at least for me. I thought that @photomatt taught everyone that drama-as-PR doesn't ever, ever work. Guess some people missed the message...
    - nchmy 1y ago
wolfgangbabad 1y ago
[flagged]
simultsop 1y ago
At some point, computation use main interface will move away from screens. We expect it to go invisible, hopefully. Then I wonder the fate of all UI solutions.
- llbbdd 1y ago
  Who is we?
alvaroflm 1y ago
Please change the title to: Datastar response to misunderstandings
- nchmy 1y ago
  Why? The original title is "Greedy Developer?" and HN's rule is to "Otherwise please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don't editorialize." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html#:~:text=Otherwise%20please%20use%20the%20original%20title%2C%20unless%20it%20is%20misleading%20or%20linkbait%3B%20don%27t%20editorialize. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html#:~:text=Oth...
  - alvaroflm 1y ago
    just trying to be fair. maybe the original page title fits better.
tolerance 1y ago
I just don’t understand how (presumably) adult men with bank accounts and families and medicine cabinets have the energy to have such strong opinions about this kind of stuff. Or even people who don’t have any of those things... Some credit is due to the lead Datastar developer though, who like the guy behind HTMX has a particular way of confronting obtuse criticism that I find amusing to some degree and in a way appropriate if only I didn’t find the tenor of some of his responses to be playing down to the level of his detractors and obscuring the greater theme that I think is software discourse being a proxy for political ones. Hoping that the personalities behind Datastar and HTMX are a few good notches to the left of DHH.
- JSR_FDED 1y ago
  The breathless outrage is something that has no place on HN. As for the developer’s tone - I don’t know if there is a right way here. It’s an asymmetrical situation where making an unfounded allegation is effortless and does real harm, but responding to it in a measured way is ineffective and legitimizes the allegation.
- sudodevnull 1y ago
  The irony is I mirror people's response. The only way to stay sane is to not take yourself seriously. The flagged comments that people take offense are South Park quotes. The general tone police is what is being railed against. Open source tech used to be counter culture to the ibm/microsoft status quo. Clutching your pearls while not understanding licensing nor the tech is the peak of absurdity. I don't even know Carson or DHH politics as I spend time on tech more than drama.
  - foofoo12 1y ago
    > The irony is I mirror people's response The problem with that is you go down to their level. There's no winning against a team of professional mud slingers in the mud. Even if you would win, that'd just make you one of them.
    - sudodevnull 1y ago
jeisc 1y ago
Lifetime licenses are great for quality software! I have one for each Beyond compare and Emedit.
hmans 1y ago
[dead]

108 points by alvaroflm 1y ago

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

dinkleberg 1y ago

The amount of front page space they’ve taken over the past few days is impressive.

sudodevnull 1y ago
Datastar author here. I'd really have rather it be about the tech or perf numbers. We pride ourselves on being fast and simple to a silly degree. The drama seems to be about anything but the underlying implementation. It makes me sad but eyeballs and hype so tend to bring people that do care in the long run.
ksec 1y ago
There is only three article on Datastar on HN. The original one was submitted by me. And I have no relation to them, I saw it as some alternative HTMX worth announcing. The 2nd one was submitted as original of the project, and also know as discover because of my submission article. Well known effect on HN. This one is a reply on controversy. Not surprised it ends up on HN also.

foofoo12 1y ago

All this fuss because there was no pricing link on the front DS page. There still isn't. There's nothing wrong with charging for your work, but it's common courtesy to be clear about pricing.

BoredPositron 1y ago
Discoverability is key, especially if you're charging for features, so placing them in reference is a bit odd. Calling it Pro doesn't help either if it's just a fancy donor button with some convenience sprinkled in. In any case, the general tone of the discussion on HN over the last three days and of the linked post doesn't make me want to use the product anyway. Everyone involved seems to like a bit of drama in their lifes.
- andersmurphy 1y ago
  Yeah Pro is a terrible name.
infamia 1y ago
They think most folks should avoid Pro (it is just convenience fluff and some potential anti-patterns). Putting it on the front page would cause more harm than good?
gazpachoking 1y ago
Everything on the site is part of the core library which is free and open source, except for the stuff clearly marked as part of pro, which has a link to the pricing. (Plus, you really don't need pro, all the good stuff is free.) I think it would be more misleading to put pro on the front page, because that would make people think it's a subpar experience without it.
naasking 1y ago
They're not charging for the core, just for some plugins that many will not even use. I really don't see the problem.

scuff3d 1y ago

From what I can tell this seems like a classic example of devs just not communicating. On mobile I don't see any mention of a "Pro" option on the front page, and I don't see any "essays" about it either. Perhaps its buried in one of the essays, or maybe it's been communicated elsewhere, but if you're planning to launch a paid service around an open source app it's really a good idea to communicate the intent clearly BEFORE it's launched. If it just comes out of no where it feels to the community like they're getting rug pulled. On top of that terms like "Pro" and "Premium" and "Plus" have been ruined by predatory subscription models. Similar thing happened to Hyperland a while back and I think a lot has to do with the language used. That said, the terms seem perfectly reasonable, and a life long license is great. Though 300 dollars is going to cause sticker shock to a solo dev I think. Edit: To the devs I would recommended adding something like "All features of Datastar are free and open source. If you would like to support us consider donating or purchasing a lifetime license for access to <insert stuff here>", to the home page, maybe under the intro to the project" And drop the "Pro" branding.

adfm 1y ago
Definitely drop the "Pro" branding. Also, sub-$200 is pretty standard disposable income threshold to consider.
- scuff3d 1y ago
  Yeah, I get their motivation for putting it all together, not wanting people to have FOMO and keeping the purchase options simple. But 300 bucks is a lot for an individual to spend. I feel like maybe breaking it up a bit and letting people pick what matters to them, but then you have to be careful not to let it feel like nickel and diming people. It's a tough line to walk.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

wewewedxfgdf 1y ago

"Allegations" implies criminal wrongdoing. "Response to entitled grumpy people" is probably more the mark. I would not tar my own project with the word "allegation" cause now you sound like a crim.

antonvs 1y ago
I would have said “response to misunderstandings”.
- wewewedxfgdf 1y ago
  Agreed.
- asddubs 1y ago
  that can read as passive aggressive though
  - JasonSage 1y ago
    That’s fine.
  - antonvs 1y ago
    People who are inclined to take offense at true statements are going to find ways to complain or take offense no matter what. We shouldn’t bend over backwards to accommodate that sort of behavior.
Waterluvian 1y ago
I think the suggested alternative is a considerably less professional way for one to conduct themselves.
nchmy 1y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]

andersmurphy 1y ago

[flagged]

sgarland 1y ago

I hadn’t heard about Datastar until this brouhaha started, but having read everything, I’ve come to the conclusion that many people are entitled primadonnas. I really do not understand the outrage. Nothing has been taken away, it hasn’t been relicensed, etc. I saw someone complaining that extracting the commit prior to the change was “an arcane git command.” Are you serious? If you can’t figure out how to get the parent of a given commit, I have no idea how you stay employed in tech. I applaud the library author for making some money while also not rug-pulling. I personally think the license should be more copyleft, but if anything, the fact that it isn’t should negate anyone’s complaints. It’s almost as if there is a disturbingly large percentage of the community that has no idea how to code, doesn’t have the drive to learn - much less produce something original and market it - and just fakes it by vibe-coding on top of libraries and frameworks.

ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
> It’s almost as if there is a disturbingly large percentage of the community that has no idea how to code, doesn’t have the drive to learn - much less produce something original and market it - and just fakes it by vibe-coding on top of libraries and frameworks. Does seem that way.
andersmurphy 1y ago
I can't even imagine the drama if it was made free but GPL.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
fwip 1y ago
> “an arcane git command.” If you're speaking of a comment towards the top of the last thread on HN about it, that comment was a sarcastic one. If not, please ignore.
yencabulator 1y ago
> Nothing has been taken away, it hasn’t been relicensed, etc. Meanwhile, at https://data-star.dev/essays/greedy_developer https://data-star.dev/essays/greedy_developer > For v1, we moved a handful of convenience plugins into Datastar Pro. So it's yet another rugpull, and the project is now Open Core. No sympathy from me.

stepbeek 1y ago

Reminds me of the Rich Hickey post Open Source is Not About You. https://gist.github.com/richhickey/1563cddea1002958f96e7ba9519972d9 https://gist.github.com/richhickey/1563cddea1002958f96e7ba95...

rovr138 1y ago

> For v1, we moved a handful of convenience plugins into Datastar Pro. and > Nothing you can build was taken from you; we set a support boundary If it was available on core, it was supported by them. If they moved it to Pro, isn't still supported by them? Not sure what the 'support boundary' is. If they didn't want to provide official support for it, wasn't 'core' the better solution for them anyway? Wouldn't pay require them to officially support it? ---- The ability to build is separate from the convenience of prebuilt. It is paywalling things. This is like saying, 'you can send electrical pulses to your computer, no need for an OS or tooling'. If everything is achievable through the same api, then the plugins wouldn't do anything. If they simplify things, then do they do add something, convenience. This is what plugins do, which they say aren't needed? But if they're not needed, what's Pro for? Yes, it's a 501c3... it's still commercial since they're selling... If it's stable, no v2, plugins aren't needed, it's a 501c3, there's no shares, equity... what's the point of Pro? "The goal is to fund the work and draw a clear support boundary," What are they funding? By adding a Pro subscription, what's the incentive to work on core? --- As an outsider it just looks as a way to justify Pro. But it's not a technical explanation or explains the maintenance policy.

infamia 1y ago
The data attributes they moved to Pro was mostly a result of watching folks use Datastar and seeing the anti-patterns develop. Those anti-patterns have been moved to Pro. > If it's stable, no v2, plugins aren't needed, it's a 501c3, there's no shares, equity... what's the point of Pro? "The goal is to fund the work and draw a clear support boundary," What are they funding? I assume it is because charitable organizations need accountants and other things (along with all the other stuff like web hosting and the like).
- sudodevnull 1y ago
  Ironically Non-profits have to show profits. We don't particularly want devs money as much as Teams/Enterprise to pay for tooling. Inspector make life easier and more stuff (like Stellar is in route).
- rovr138 1y ago

leoh 1y ago

I think it’s not fair that we expect every developer tool to be OSS. Most things that are fully OSS like react, typescript, etc. and even Linux to a large degree are supported by humongous amounts of cash from large tech companies. When a smaller firm devoted to developer tools like datastar decides to monetize, moreover, they are doing so without leaning on ad monetization, which many big firms rely upon, or other means that are not particularly nice. I think it’s really important we cut folks working on paid dev tools a break. The alternative is that we end up in a world that is largely merely defined by huge tech companies.

leros 1y ago
It's true for things other than developer tools. I built a free utility that became popular and people started asking for more features. I spent several months working full-time on building out improvement and put 10% of the new features behind a paywall. I took nothing away and made 90% of the new features free too. The stuff I put behind a paywall is stuff I thought would only apply to professional business users. Just the fact that I had paid features made people upset. I got a ton of angry emails asking why the tool was no longer free. I also used to make some money via donations through BuyMeACoffee and those nearly completely stopped.
- sudodevnull 1y ago
  Sorry to hear that man. It does really sour the ideas of the MIT license especially. It's a social problem and won't be solved by tech. My response now is a pretty hard line, cool... then fork it. Anything softer doesn't matter cause if they really cared they'd already be actively helping.
- mauvehaus 1y ago
  If I throw code up on GitHub, I try to be real clear that if it's good enough for me, it's done as far as I'm concerned[0]. I'm also licensed under WTFPL. I figure if that scares off any commercial interests, so much the better. You're probably a lot more fully baked than I am, so this path may not work for you. [0] https://github.com/longwalkwoodworking/angle-dangler#what-if-theres-a-bug https://github.com/longwalkwoodworking/angle-dangler#what-if...

abrookewood 1y ago

I don't really have an opinion on DHH either, but that speech nails it. Open Source Devs need to eat - stop flooding them with unrealistic demands and whinging when they ask to get paid.

mardifoufs 1y ago
I don't think anyone would be pissed at projects that ask to get paid upfront. When you provide a product for free, then switch the features to a paid model, it's normal that people will talk about it and won't be super happy about the situation. Sure they aren't entitled to anything, but maintainers aren't entitled to a criticism-free discussion of their project just because the project is open source (in part) either.
- sudodevnull 1y ago
  Oh don't worry, it's made it much less likely that I never develop in the open ever again

andersmurphy 1y ago

As a Datastar user who uses the free version I don't want the Pro features to be made free as they would just add bloat to the bundle. It's already borderline massive at 10-11kb. Like preact is 3kb.

nz3000 1y ago

Internet drama aside, if you develop applications for the web, know Go, and are at all curious about what you can do with Datastar I have a boilerplate / template project that I've had much success with called northstar. In it you'll find a TODO app, and some smaller examples that show off some patterns of success when using Datastar. It's intended to be hacked on / apart, so bring your own patterns of success and put on your hacker hat. - https://github.com/zangster300/northstar https://github.com/zangster300/northstar

godatastargo 1y ago

[flagged]

sudodevnull 1y ago
Thank you so much! The core team does realize there is a silent majority that doesn't get involved in the drama. Sorry you had to make an account to say that. We really do appreciate it!
- godatastargo 1y ago
  No problem! You were quite responsive to my questions about datastar on some other social media outlet. Time for me to do what I can!

HiPhish 1y ago

I am getting really mixed signals here. First the Pro features used to be free (libre), but now they no longer are. The features are supposedly not really needed, but then they being sold. What's with the Pro bundler? Why do we need a bundler in the first place, what is it supposed to do that a regular bundler like Vite cannot? And now there are two more frameworks (Rocket and Stellar) that won't be Free and Open Source at all? If this is just about providing monetary support for the project then just do what everyone else is doing: sell support or pre-built copy&past examples. If the plugins are nothing special and can be replaced by a one-liner I would be even more pissed after paying 300$ for them. Either these guys are really, really bad at communication, or this smells really fishy. If anything, this blog post makes me trust them even less that they won't enshittify Datastart by moving more stuff to Pro and having the FLOSS version be the ghetto version.

wolfgangbabad 1y ago
The author is very aggressive and pushy, he makes fun of people who disagree with him on Discord and now even here on hackernews. Notice the pattern of his comments/responses - he tends to belittle people. On Discord he use vulgar language - here he is more careful to maintain image. But it still permeates through his comments no matter how hard he tries to mask his true self.
- sudodevnull 1y ago
  We tell people to show code and to prove their positions instead of asserting them blindly. If you got pushback it's 100% because of that
naasking 1y ago
> I am getting really mixed signals here. First the Pro features used to be free (libre), but now they no longer are. That's not my understanding. From what I read, the open source "features" were incomplete, the Pro versions are polished products. I don't understand the rest of your post, don't use a bundler if you don't see the point. Datastar is tiny and modular, any proprietary features could be replaced by open source version, you don't need to depend on anything proprietary. What's the risk you're worried about here? Finally, selling support for a tiny library that's well tested, robust and fast is not viable. What do you see as the business case here?

renewiltord 1y ago

Pretty typical for people to start campaigns for "open source developers must be compensated" while simultaneously losing their shit about this. Hahaha. Oh yeah, please make it donorware so that I can then give you $5 every ten years and say "I donate to open source projects I like". Haha.

andersmurphy 1y ago
It's wild this comment is getting downvotes.
- crote 1y ago
  Probably because there's a huge chasm between "open source developers shouldn't starve" and "any form of monetization, no matter how hostile to the community, is completely acceptable".
  - renewiltord 1y ago
    Yeah, and apparently completely optional features that are entirely new are "hostile to the community". LOL Hey, OSS dev, would you mind putting only features no one would ever want behind a paywall? No no, I know you could put convenience ones that could be replaced with a one-liner behind a paywall and no one would be hurt but that would be hostile to the community. Ideally, exactly zero people should want the thing you make a pro feature.
    - andersmurphy 1y ago
      The whole OSS support model people are suggested Datastar adopt is bad as it actively encourages you to write less good software so you can offer paid support.

jemiluv8 1y ago

Get ready for hard forks

odie5533 1y ago

Whatever slight they received has been more than recompensed with exposure. We've had three HN stories in two days on this.

andersmurphy 1y ago
Four. Pretty funny. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45536000 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45536000 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45536618 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45536618 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45537372 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45537372
BoredPositron 1y ago
To be honest, for me it's the opposite, judging by the developer's comments in other threads about the topic. He's not as nice as his responses in this one would suggest. Edit: Just some examples to not make empty statements. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45540077 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45540077 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45540140 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45540140 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45542425 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45542425 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45538639 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45538639 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45540093 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45540093 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45540824 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45540824 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45539376 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45539376 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45539942 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45539942 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45539821 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45539821
- bigyabai 1y ago
  Wow. This is far in excess of "Torvalds hazing" and lands solidly into the "you are uninvited to my next project" bucket, at least for me. I thought that @photomatt taught everyone that drama-as-PR doesn't ever, ever work. Guess some people missed the message...
  - nchmy 1y ago

wolfgangbabad 1y ago

[flagged]

simultsop 1y ago

At some point, computation use main interface will move away from screens. We expect it to go invisible, hopefully. Then I wonder the fate of all UI solutions.

llbbdd 1y ago
Who is we?

alvaroflm 1y ago

Please change the title to: Datastar response to misunderstandings

nchmy 1y ago
Why? The original title is "Greedy Developer?" and HN's rule is to "Otherwise please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don't editorialize." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html#:~:text=Otherwise%20please%20use%20the%20original%20title%2C%20unless%20it%20is%20misleading%20or%20linkbait%3B%20don%27t%20editorialize. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html#:~:text=Oth...
- alvaroflm 1y ago
  just trying to be fair. maybe the original page title fits better.

tolerance 1y ago

I just don’t understand how (presumably) adult men with bank accounts and families and medicine cabinets have the energy to have such strong opinions about this kind of stuff. Or even people who don’t have any of those things... Some credit is due to the lead Datastar developer though, who like the guy behind HTMX has a particular way of confronting obtuse criticism that I find amusing to some degree and in a way appropriate if only I didn’t find the tenor of some of his responses to be playing down to the level of his detractors and obscuring the greater theme that I think is software discourse being a proxy for political ones. Hoping that the personalities behind Datastar and HTMX are a few good notches to the left of DHH.

JSR_FDED 1y ago
The breathless outrage is something that has no place on HN. As for the developer’s tone - I don’t know if there is a right way here. It’s an asymmetrical situation where making an unfounded allegation is effortless and does real harm, but responding to it in a measured way is ineffective and legitimizes the allegation.
sudodevnull 1y ago
The irony is I mirror people's response. The only way to stay sane is to not take yourself seriously. The flagged comments that people take offense are South Park quotes. The general tone police is what is being railed against. Open source tech used to be counter culture to the ibm/microsoft status quo. Clutching your pearls while not understanding licensing nor the tech is the peak of absurdity. I don't even know Carson or DHH politics as I spend time on tech more than drama.
- foofoo12 1y ago
  > The irony is I mirror people's response The problem with that is you go down to their level. There's no winning against a team of professional mud slingers in the mud. Even if you would win, that'd just make you one of them.
  - sudodevnull 1y ago

jeisc 1y ago

Lifetime licenses are great for quality software! I have one for each Beyond compare and Emedit.

hmans 1y ago

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