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Let me guess. When it gets tricky it fails. USB? Own IP? 3D? Bluetooth? My recommendation for happiness with Linux is: Always use native apps. Don’t use WINE.
by ho_schi 1y ago
Let me guess. When it gets tricky it fails. USB? Own IP? 3D? Bluetooth?
My recommendation for happiness with Linux is:
Always use native apps. Don’t use WINE. Don’t try to be compatible to inherent hostile things. Don’t use VMs. And especially don’t use Dual-Boot. It sucks.
Basically migrate and go full Linux. Don’t look back :)
Proton (which is WINE derivative) works somehow, because Valve invests every single day tremendous efforts into it. But that’s the problem, tremendous efforts.
The good news. Every bit invested in high quality API/ABI on Linux pays off. Valve contributions to MESA and amdgpu are invaluable. Valve should honor native AAA-Titles and Indie-Titles for Linux - with exclusive Steam Awards. There is awesome stuff like Unrailed. Make the game developers think:
“I better should do a proper port. And it should not be done by the Win32 developer. Task the Linux developer.”
PS: I missed Counter-Strike so much on Linux for years. And the Valve came, ported everything natively, and it is wonderful :)
PPS: I use a Mac for two incompatible applications (Garmin Express and Zwift). Less maintenance than Windows. Less possibilities than Linux. Horrible file-browser. Window management is a pain. But it covers the gap without ruining my day. I have to admit, the Mac cannot run Counter-Strike 2. That’s a task for Linux :)
- xupybd 1y agoSome of us have work that requires windows only applications.
- typpilol 1y agoExactly Sorry boss I can't do work today, I decided to go full Linux and our CRM doesn't support it!
- jamesnorden 1y agoYou don't have a work machine?
- fuzzfactor 1y agoMost office workers are not in software so most work machines are office machines. Having baseline Windows further encumbered by often-misguided IT approaches. Every one of these needs more intense tweaking before it will run as well as the same offices 20 years ago. Too bad most users are locked out and IT may not know how to do it or may not be motivated anyway. It may even be at the point where less tweaking may now be needed for Linux to become a higher-performance office machine than Windows/Office was 20 years ago. With less undocumented effort than it would take to get the same performance from the latest Windows. But who's going to do it? All other things are not being equal though, 20 years ago PC's were lower-performing hardware in a number of ways, so that probably should be brought under consideration. But it just seems so unfair then.
- icemelt8 1y agoOr just use windows :)
- nine_k 1y agoVery often what holds you back is not a huge and complex thing like an AAA game, but something far less demanding and obscure. Something like an app to design knitting patterns, elaborate, purpose-built, and without a huge team behind it. Not open-source though. In this case, seamless compatibility is great. (For games, there is Proton.)
- paranoidrobot 1y agoFor me (Well, my grandmother) it was Family Tree Maker. To cut a very long story short - after Windows 10 restarted on her, and changed default browser and application settings too many times she was going to completely give up using the computer. I built a new machine (a Dell AIO workstation) for her with Ubuntu, FTM and a few other things. Worked brilliantly.
- mouse_ 1y agonative Linux apps also fail when it gets "tricky", so this isn't really that great of a benchmark, is it?
- jeroenhd 1y ago> My recommendation for happiness with Linux is: Always use native apps. Don’t use WINE. Don’t try to be compatible to inherent hostile things. Don’t use VMs. And especially don’t use Dual-Boot. It sucks. Had I listened to your recommendation, I would've never tried Linux. Sorry, but Linux doesn't run Photoshop. Or Valorant. Or certain VPNs, certain educational software, and doesn't work with a bunch of hardware. Dual booting is still a hell of a lot better than trying to configure Wine in most cases, but if doing everything natively on Linux was an option, it would've have taken SteamOS so many years to become even remotely usable. And even then people install Windows on their Steam Decks to run certain specific programs or games. For the same reason native Linux isn't an option, native macOS wouldn't have been an option back when I first tried Linux. And even today, programs like Paint.NET are dearly missed on Linux and macOS (yes, I know about Pinta), and stock macOS is infuriating to use without all manner of tools and background programs reminding me of my XP. I use Windows for my Windows tools, Linux most of the time, and macOS for my macOS work stuff. I'm not getting rid of either non-Linux OS because that would make doing certain things simply impossible.
- eek2121 1y agoWINE has basically become a gaming wrapper at this point. There are not many (modern) apps outside of games that run on WINE. However, games run great! Last I checked, Office 365 didn't work, Basically anything modern Adobe didn't work, even the latest version of Visual Studio (not VSCode) didn't work. Things may have changed, I just learned to live without that stuff.
- heavyset_go 1y agoA niche Wine does suit well is running audio plugins for music production. Wouldn't have believed it if I didn't first see and then use it myself. Think it's because JUCE is relatively well-supported on Wine and natively on Linux, there are hardly any dependencies outside of system libraries and a DSP library.
- camtarn 1y agoYeah, it's pretty mind-blowing how well this works, even though the setup was a bit janky. Sadly, after moving my music production setup from Windows to Linux, I'm locked out of some of my expensive sample libraries because while the plugins run fine, the licensing programs do not. Very frustrating.
- babypuncher 1y agoI've found games running in Proton to provide better long-term compatibility than many native games. Despite Steam providing a stable runtime for native games, I have a few titles from their first major Linux push back in the '10s that are now crash-happy or exhibit substantial performance problems, but work perfectly fine when I use the Windows version with Proton. Telling people not to even think about using their favorite piece of software is a good way to make sure they don't consider switching. A lot of popular Windows apps run perfectly fine in WINE. I've been using foobar2000 in it for a decade at this point, and have yet to find a native alternative that gives me the same feature set. So why shouldn't I keep running it?
- Rohansi 1y ago> provide better long-term compatibility than many native games This is one of the big, but less obvious, benefits to Wine/Proton. Games with native Linux builds run into all kinds of distro-specific issues that you don't really get on Windows. It's an issue for new games and an even worse issue for older games that aren't being updated anymore. Just look at Steam on macOS to see how big of an issue this is - so many games are not compatible on the latest Macs because they were built for x86 (32-bit).
- r0uv3n 1y ago"Win32 is the only stable ABI on Linux" - https://blog.hiler.eu/win32-the-only-stable-abi/ https://blog.hiler.eu/win32-the-only-stable-abi/
- petabyt 1y agoBad advice. Counterpoint: Wine works really well (especially for old applications) and there's nothing wrong with using it. If people restrict themselves to arbitrary rules then many won't be able to use Linux.
- edoceo 1y agoThere is value in those who push by absolutes like this; they are moving the world in their direction; it's important to the market to have some edge-zealots on the demand side. Helps prevent monopoly and is an at-large benefit. Disclosure: I'm 100% Linux since 2005 (except embed devices (game console, Roku)). All the Line-of-Business stuff "just works".
- twosdai 1y agoI mean in terms of market here, for games (largest current use case for Wine / proton). Its not really a market. I think the investment for linux over windows is for steam to try and push people away from windows so as to reduce the competition for Xbox Game Pass. In the most recent report for steam, linux users are like 2-3% of the total share. I'm not sure that "edge lords" pushing the market, really factors into valve's decision. If Xbox Game Pass goes under, then I think steam will likely reduce its investment in proton. Just my take though, I get your point that people spreading this idea and encouraging it have a place and at least its not negative. I just don't think that they really are market movers.
- wltr 1y agoHey, but put it differently, 3% is every 30th person, so technically, they can brag about how cool and easy Linux is to their friends, who’d install it too. So while 3% sounds like a rounding error, they may shift the pretty quickly, and suddenly that’s 30% one day.
- ho_schi 1y agoPushing the market :) Valve releases Half-Live 3 exclusive as Linux port only. Announces that Windows port will follow at some time undefined time. That pushes the market. A lot of angry people will become more angry and write posts on the internet. The rest grabs an ISO and decides, that the game matters more than Win11. That’s not crazy. That is the daily business of Windows, XBox, PlayStation and Nintendo. They even decide deliberately making new games platform exclusive for the newest console, forcing gamers into expensive upgrades for new consoles (and weirdly these people are happy about spending 500 for it). PS: The shares of Valve will not drop. Valve is - not a stock market company - it is privately owned. That’s the reason why we nice actions from Valve, over long terms. I cannot say what will happen with Microsoft shares.
- cozzyd 1y agoUSB passthrough works remarkably well. (No experience with winboat).
- marcus_holmes 1y agoI switched my gaming desktop over to Linux last year. My experience has mostly been that Linux native versions just aren't as good as the Windows-on-Proton version. (Shout out to Larian for their recent BG3 release, a much better native version.) Totally agree that Proton only works so well because of the constant effort that Valve put into it. Shouting at game devs to make better native Linux versions isn't going to work. What will work is that the market demographics are slowly moving over to Linux, mostly thanks to Valve, Proton and the Steam Deck.
- flanked-evergl 1y agoIn practice, the most stable API on Linux is WINE. There are of course things game devs can do to counteract this, but they won't, and WINE works amazingly well for games, so they don't need to either.
- LtWorf 1y agoIn practice all those 32 bit binaries won't run on any machine real soon.
- flanked-evergl 1y agoIt's going to be okay, Valve will fix it.
- flanked-evergl 1y agoActually it seems it's already fixed: https://gitlab.winehq.org/wine/wine/-/releases/wine-9.0#wow64 https://gitlab.winehq.org/wine/wine/-/releases/wine-9.0#wow6... > All modules that call a Unix library contain WoW64 thunks to enable calling the 64-bit Unix library from 32-bit PE code. This means that it is possible to run 32-bit Windows applications on a purely 64-bit Unix installation. This is called the new WoW64 mode, as opposed to the old WoW64 mode where 32-bit applications run inside a 32-bit Unix process.
- cap11235 1y agoI don't know about this project, but using KVM+Qemu w/ VFIO lets you partition USB devices (and most other physical assets) to your virtualized OS. I used to pass my mouse back and forth between Windows and Linux this way, and similarly for one monitor (mainly to demonstrate I could indeed run Crysis).
- 999900000999 1y agoThe vast majority of games are fine via Steam/Proton. They will never ever receive native Linux ports. Understand what each OS is good at. Back in my younger days, experimenting with Linux was my defacto CS education. I use desktop Linux when I don't want distractions I need my computer to do what I want it it. Window's is much much better for music production. I'm not switching DAWs. Primarily I'm a .net developer, I NEED Visual Studio to really be productive. OSX is when I have an important interview or something. Although I did interview using Fedora recently. Fantastically stable distro! You don't take a Lambo off road, you generally don't take a Jeep to the race track.
- bigstrat2003 1y ago> My recommendation for happiness with Linux is: Always use native apps. Don’t use WINE. Don’t try to be compatible to inherent hostile things. Don’t use VMs. And especially don’t use Dual-Boot. It sucks. This is terrible advice. Many people want to use Windows apps while using Linux, and Wine works just fine for that. And for those few that don't work in Wine, dual boot works great.
- aleph_minus_one 1y ago> My recommendation for happiness with Linux is: Always use native apps. Don’t use WINE. Don’t try to be compatible to inherent hostile things. Rather: don't try to be compatible with inherently unstable APIs: https://sporks.space/2022/02/27/win32-is-the-stable-linux-userland-abi-and-the-consequences/ https://sporks.space/2022/02/27/win32-is-the-stable-linux-us... https://blog.hiler.eu/win32-the-only-stable-abi/ https://blog.hiler.eu/win32-the-only-stable-abi/ Just to be clear: I consider it to be a good idea to write native apps for GNU/Linux, but first stabilize the APIs so that they stay basically stable for at least 20 years.
- _cenw 1y agoThis is mostly a UX problem. Many ways to shoot yourself in the foot. Maybe someone could write a linter for checking symbol tables for depending on shared libraries not in the Steam runtime and private symbol use. But also, compiling everything with dynamic libraries is kind of an interesting side effect of having all the source code in a single context of a distribution; maybe you should always statically compile if you're not part of this system.
- aleph_minus_one 1y ago> But also, compiling everything with dynamic libraries is kind of an interesting side effect of having all the source code in a single context of a distribution Under Windows, this is also done. But there is a difference: changes in a system-wide DLL better are really backwards-compatible. If there are breaking changes, a new "package" gets introduced with new names for the DLLs. This is why on many Windows systems, lots of versions of, for example, the "Microsoft Visual C++ Redistributable" are installed. Nevertheless, the old versions are still available and get maintained for a very long time at least with respect to security fixes. Also, the API design under Windows tends to be much more "future-proof". For example, a lot of data structures contain some size information as a first field so that the API can detect which "version" of a data structure has been passed so that future changes can be implemented in a backwards-compatible manner, e.g. WNDCLASSEXA: > https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/winuser/ns-winuser-wndclassexa https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/winuser/... The first field is cbSize. To me, it seems in the GNU/Linux ecosystem, the API developers care a lot less about such topics.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- GoblinSlayer 1y agoCan you recommend a reasonably lightweight text editor for linux with syntax highlighting?
- FergusArgyll 1y agovim?
- mkl 1y agoMost of them. Kate, KDE's default editor (I use this on Kubuntu; it's nice). GNOME Text Editor, GNOME's default. Vim, for terminal use. Plenty of others.
- DengistKhan 1y agoSublime
- JohnClark1337 1y ago[dead]
- Saris 1y ago100% Linux is a nice idea, but doesn't work out with some stuff, like the OBD II app for my motorcycle being windows only and needing USB access.
- GaryBluto 1y ago"Just, like, stop using stuff that you use all the time for ideological purity." is not good advice.