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I think countries with division and low social trust and cohesion necessarily require increasingly authoritarian measures from the government to hold them toget

I think countries with division and low social trust and cohesion necessarily require increasingly authoritarian measures from the government to hold them together. Increasing dependence on government for their own security will reduce peoples' ability to question and change the government. One might think it's all part of the plan. Real freedom and self determination has been a fleeting blink of an eye in the history of humanity, and only achieved by a few peoples. Those at the top have always considered it a violation of their right to rule, and they've never stopped working to take back what they believe was stolen from them. Sadly I think they're going to eventually win, and the light will go out.

tvier 1y ago
The power given to the masses vs the ruling class is always in flux. The light may go out, but it won't be forever. I'm also hopeful that the requirement for a well educated workforce will nudge societies towards more freedom than the historical norm.
- stinkbeetle 1y ago
  > The power given to the masses vs the ruling class is always in flux. The light may go out, but it won't be forever. Impossible to be so sure. > I'm also hopeful that the requirement for a well educated workforce will nudge societies towards more freedom than the historical norm. "The educated" have been among the most susceptible to authoritarian tendencies and propaganda, so I would not be too hopeful of that. https://jacobin.com/2022/10/chahla-chafiq-iranian-left-khomeini-protests-feminism https://jacobin.com/2022/10/chahla-chafiq-iranian-left-khome... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Guards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Guards https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/pot_pol.shtml https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/pot_pol.shtml Also there have been demonstrated to be other ways around the problem of educated population. Divide them against other classes of the population for example. Or subsidize and encourage non-productive people. And even if everyone was educated and wanted better, how would they ever vote for more individual rights and freedoms if the suppression of those rights is the only thing keeping them safe from other groups in their country?
  - Aeolun 1y ago
    > Impossible to be so sure. Forever is a long time. I’m betting on ‘not forever’.
- api 1y ago
  All authoritarian societies have their priesthoods, knighthoods, police forces, scribes, etc., or their modern equivalents, essentially a small middle class afforded more wealth and more rights than the peasantry. Couple this with the fact that educated people often buy into authoritarian ideologies. At least that’s what I’ve seen. If there is any legitimate basis behind American anti-intellectualism this is it.
preommr 1y ago
> low social trust and cohesion necessarily require increasingly authoritarian measures Then this country is fucked. It's really hard to have some kind of national identity when the previous PM goes and says things like Canada might be the first post-national state.
- JamisonM 1y ago
  Jean Chrétien is the one that said Canada is the first post-nationalist state, why would it be a bad thing? Is there a reason why national identity and being a high-trust society need to be linked?
array_key_first 1y ago
> I think countries with division and low social trust and cohesion necessarily require increasingly authoritarian measures from the government to hold them together. This sounds like it makes sense, but in reality, the most authoritarian countries throughout history and presently are highly nationalist. A strong and cohesive national identity does not reduce authoritarianism. If anything, it seems to be one of the primary and most reliable indicators of authoritarianism.
- stinkbeetle 1y ago
  > This sounds like it makes sense, but in reality, the most authoritarian countries throughout history and presently are highly nationalist. That doesn't address what I wrote though. I didn't say that is the only way authoritarianism could arise.
- HaZeust 1y ago
  social trust and cohesion aren't necessarily a pride in national identity. Scandinavian countries are highly homogenous, high social trust, and extraordinarily cohesive, and isn't very nationalistic or prideful in its identity - short of the run-of-mill "white" bickering.
fasbiner 1y ago
This is terribly self-important and extrapolatory. Canada is a place that allowed private for-profit institutions to sell an unlimited number of student vouchers that made the associated visa shall-issue. These are trivial to overstay without oversight and millions of people have. Regardless of the relative merits of this policy, it certainly isn't what canadians voted for or even permitted public discussion of beforehand. Combine this with the social welfare state unraveling and the government suggesting disabled citizens to kill themselves after their benefits are cut, and it's had a sharply radicalizing effect. So the government is panicking, trying to crack down, and will no doubt propel some dubious populist to power who can handily win simply by reading an opinion polls and not denouncing the majority of the public, in public. What light? What eventual winning? Stop watching children's movies and reading children's books.
- stinkbeetle 1y ago
  > This is terribly self-important and extrapolatory. No it isn't.
  - fasbiner 1y ago
    The light is going to go out for all of humanity for all time as part of a centuries old plan for final victory by starting at the most critical link of all in the whole chain of being... canadian routers. Canada is a country that has historically been weaker on free speech and free assembly and individual rights compared to the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Canada#Internet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Canada#Internet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_banned_in_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_banned_in_Canada A website operator was convicted of obscenity in 2016, a comedian was fined for making a joke about someone's appearance in a comedy club while on stage, the government debanked people as an extrajudicial punishment for a disruptive assembly without due processs... it's a lovely country but they have more tradition of using the state in conjunction with corporate power to express value judgements with the force of law. America is an outlier, not a baseline.
    - 1y ago

tvier 1y ago

The power given to the masses vs the ruling class is always in flux. The light may go out, but it won't be forever. I'm also hopeful that the requirement for a well educated workforce will nudge societies towards more freedom than the historical norm.

stinkbeetle 1y ago
> The power given to the masses vs the ruling class is always in flux. The light may go out, but it won't be forever. Impossible to be so sure. > I'm also hopeful that the requirement for a well educated workforce will nudge societies towards more freedom than the historical norm. "The educated" have been among the most susceptible to authoritarian tendencies and propaganda, so I would not be too hopeful of that. https://jacobin.com/2022/10/chahla-chafiq-iranian-left-khomeini-protests-feminism https://jacobin.com/2022/10/chahla-chafiq-iranian-left-khome... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Guards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Guards https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/pot_pol.shtml https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/pot_pol.shtml Also there have been demonstrated to be other ways around the problem of educated population. Divide them against other classes of the population for example. Or subsidize and encourage non-productive people. And even if everyone was educated and wanted better, how would they ever vote for more individual rights and freedoms if the suppression of those rights is the only thing keeping them safe from other groups in their country?
- Aeolun 1y ago
  > Impossible to be so sure. Forever is a long time. I’m betting on ‘not forever’.
api 1y ago
All authoritarian societies have their priesthoods, knighthoods, police forces, scribes, etc., or their modern equivalents, essentially a small middle class afforded more wealth and more rights than the peasantry. Couple this with the fact that educated people often buy into authoritarian ideologies. At least that’s what I’ve seen. If there is any legitimate basis behind American anti-intellectualism this is it.

preommr 1y ago

> low social trust and cohesion necessarily require increasingly authoritarian measures Then this country is fucked. It's really hard to have some kind of national identity when the previous PM goes and says things like Canada might be the first post-national state.

JamisonM 1y ago
Jean Chrétien is the one that said Canada is the first post-nationalist state, why would it be a bad thing? Is there a reason why national identity and being a high-trust society need to be linked?

array_key_first 1y ago

> I think countries with division and low social trust and cohesion necessarily require increasingly authoritarian measures from the government to hold them together. This sounds like it makes sense, but in reality, the most authoritarian countries throughout history and presently are highly nationalist. A strong and cohesive national identity does not reduce authoritarianism. If anything, it seems to be one of the primary and most reliable indicators of authoritarianism.

stinkbeetle 1y ago
> This sounds like it makes sense, but in reality, the most authoritarian countries throughout history and presently are highly nationalist. That doesn't address what I wrote though. I didn't say that is the only way authoritarianism could arise.
HaZeust 1y ago
social trust and cohesion aren't necessarily a pride in national identity. Scandinavian countries are highly homogenous, high social trust, and extraordinarily cohesive, and isn't very nationalistic or prideful in its identity - short of the run-of-mill "white" bickering.

fasbiner 1y ago

This is terribly self-important and extrapolatory. Canada is a place that allowed private for-profit institutions to sell an unlimited number of student vouchers that made the associated visa shall-issue. These are trivial to overstay without oversight and millions of people have. Regardless of the relative merits of this policy, it certainly isn't what canadians voted for or even permitted public discussion of beforehand. Combine this with the social welfare state unraveling and the government suggesting disabled citizens to kill themselves after their benefits are cut, and it's had a sharply radicalizing effect. So the government is panicking, trying to crack down, and will no doubt propel some dubious populist to power who can handily win simply by reading an opinion polls and not denouncing the majority of the public, in public. What light? What eventual winning? Stop watching children's movies and reading children's books.

stinkbeetle 1y ago
> This is terribly self-important and extrapolatory. No it isn't.
- fasbiner 1y ago
  The light is going to go out for all of humanity for all time as part of a centuries old plan for final victory by starting at the most critical link of all in the whole chain of being... canadian routers. Canada is a country that has historically been weaker on free speech and free assembly and individual rights compared to the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Canada#Internet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Canada#Internet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_banned_in_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_banned_in_Canada A website operator was convicted of obscenity in 2016, a comedian was fined for making a joke about someone's appearance in a comedy club while on stage, the government debanked people as an extrajudicial punishment for a disruptive assembly without due processs... it's a lovely country but they have more tradition of using the state in conjunction with corporate power to express value judgements with the force of law. America is an outlier, not a baseline.
  - 1y ago