5 ms·

I’d just call it “coding” – it’ll be the default soon enough. For the old way: “hand-coding”

by drchaim 1y ago

vunderba 1y ago
I've definitely heard people semi-seriously refer to the old way as "artisanal coding".
- simonw 1y ago
  Someone called it "brain coding" the other day which I quite enjoyed: https://domm.plix.at/perl/2025_10_braincoded_static_image_gallery.html https://domm.plix.at/perl/2025_10_braincoded_static_image_ga...
- mistahchris 1y ago
  That's actually a pretty reasonable description I think. I mean, in the semi-serious way. But I was just talking to some colleagues of mine about how one can get attached to or invested in code that they hand wrote, even though that code wasn't really solving a problem that was "worth" that level of attachment. And AI assisted code generation changes the dynamic for code that fits in that category for me, and it just so happens to be a lot of the code people write for work fit into that. You only really need to be "artisinal" about the code that "really matters".
- CuriouslyC 1y ago
  Just wait until there are artisinal software shops in Brooklyn staffed by an even higher density of bros with signature mustaches and weird side hobbies.
raghavtoshniwal 1y ago
I feel a certain way when I hear about older programmers who used to program using punch cards, I guess everyone in the future will think about us in the same way?
- username223 1y ago
  I feel a certain way when I work with older programmers who used to program using punch cards, and debug actual core dumps, i.e. the main memory of the computer printed out in hex. They have incredible attention to detail, and can reason about why their programs didn't do what they expected.
  - Ekaros 1y ago
    In some ways slower feedback loops might be useful. Having to think and reason if your code is correct and actually works because you only get output next day... Instead of just vibing something out, pushing it to prod and seeing the problems. Or not even checking...
- icantprogram 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - raghavtoshniwal 1y ago
    Haha - cool that you made a throwaway insult account just for this. I meant punch cards as a placeholder for programming in a bygone era, about how it feels so different, distant and detached, and that I don't relate to it. I can see a plausible future where if we go down this route, what I call coding right now will feel the same.
- habinero 1y ago
  You don't "program" with punch cards any more than you "program" with text files. They were just the mechanism to get your code into the computer before hard drives and compilers existed.
MontyCarloHall 1y ago
It will certainly be the default for cases where it's easier to read code than to write code, but this is far from universally true. AFAIK, Joel Spolsky was the first to discuss this at length 25 years ago [0], but numerous people have echoed his sentiment [1, 2, 3, ...] One of the most underrated skills in effectively using gen-AI for coding is knowing ahead of time whether it will take longer to carefully review the code it produces, versus writing it from scratch yourself. [0] https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-... [1] https://mattrickard.com/its-hard-to-read-code-than-write-it https://mattrickard.com/its-hard-to-read-code-than-write-it [2] https://trishagee.com/presentations/reading_code/ https://trishagee.com/presentations/reading_code/ [3] https://idiallo.com/blog/writing-code-is-easy-reading-is-hard https://idiallo.com/blog/writing-code-is-easy-reading-is-har... [...] https://www.google.com/search?q=it%27s+harder+to+read+code+than+write+it https://www.google.com/search?q=it%27s+harder+to+read+code+t...
crabmusket 1y ago
As much as I dislike the ecosystem around AI and don't enjoy using them as tools: this is the answer. We don't need a word for "doing the job properly with new tools".
iahds9uasd 1y ago
I feel nauseous when I read comments like this. Does no one here actually like programming?
- MontyCarloHall 1y ago
  I don't like the kind of programming that an LLM can easily accomplish. For instance, I recently had to replace a hard-coded parameter with something specifiable on the command line, in an unfamiliar behemoth of a Java project. The hard-coded value was literally 20 function calls deep in a heavily dependency-injected stack, and the argument parser was of course bespoke. Claude Code oneshotted this in about 30 seconds. It took me all of 5 minutes to read through its implementation and verify that it correctly called the custom argument parser and percolated its value down all 20 layers of the stack. The hour of my time I got back from having to parse through all those layers myself was spent on the sort of programming I love, the kind that LLMs are bad at: things like novel algorithm development, low-level optimizations, designing elegant and maintainable code architecture, etc.
  - ares623 1y ago
    wait you were unfamiliar with a behemoth Java project to the point of dreading making the change yourself, and yet only spent 5 minutes reviewing "someone else's" PR?
    - MontyCarloHall 1y ago
      Yup. Replacing a single hard-coded parameter with a command line argument is hardly an earth shattering change. It's trivial to verify that the argument properly gets passed down the stack (and that passing it has no side-effects), but figuring out that stack in the first place would have taken a much longer time. Think of it like an NP-complete problem: hard to solve, but easy to check that a solution is correct. For more complex modifications, I would have taken the time to better internalize the code architecture myself. But for a no-brainer case like this, an LLM oneshot is perfect.
      - 1y ago
est 1y ago
Linus Torvalds: 'Talk is cheap. Show me the code' Today: 'code is cheap, show me the talk'
wilsonnb3 1y ago
I dunno, I feel lately like we are right at the tail end of the honeymoon era and about to enter the era where the blog topic du jour is “use LLMs, not too much, mostly on a short leash”. Not much to base that on other than vibes, though :)
etwigg 1y ago
brick-and-mortar coding

I’d just call it “coding” – it’ll be the default soon enough. For the old way: “hand-coding”

vunderba 1y ago

I've definitely heard people semi-seriously refer to the old way as "artisanal coding".

simonw 1y ago
Someone called it "brain coding" the other day which I quite enjoyed: https://domm.plix.at/perl/2025_10_braincoded_static_image_gallery.html https://domm.plix.at/perl/2025_10_braincoded_static_image_ga...
mistahchris 1y ago
That's actually a pretty reasonable description I think. I mean, in the semi-serious way. But I was just talking to some colleagues of mine about how one can get attached to or invested in code that they hand wrote, even though that code wasn't really solving a problem that was "worth" that level of attachment. And AI assisted code generation changes the dynamic for code that fits in that category for me, and it just so happens to be a lot of the code people write for work fit into that. You only really need to be "artisinal" about the code that "really matters".
CuriouslyC 1y ago
Just wait until there are artisinal software shops in Brooklyn staffed by an even higher density of bros with signature mustaches and weird side hobbies.

raghavtoshniwal 1y ago

I feel a certain way when I hear about older programmers who used to program using punch cards, I guess everyone in the future will think about us in the same way?

username223 1y ago
I feel a certain way when I work with older programmers who used to program using punch cards, and debug actual core dumps, i.e. the main memory of the computer printed out in hex. They have incredible attention to detail, and can reason about why their programs didn't do what they expected.
- Ekaros 1y ago
  In some ways slower feedback loops might be useful. Having to think and reason if your code is correct and actually works because you only get output next day... Instead of just vibing something out, pushing it to prod and seeing the problems. Or not even checking...
icantprogram 1y ago
[flagged]
- raghavtoshniwal 1y ago
  Haha - cool that you made a throwaway insult account just for this. I meant punch cards as a placeholder for programming in a bygone era, about how it feels so different, distant and detached, and that I don't relate to it. I can see a plausible future where if we go down this route, what I call coding right now will feel the same.
habinero 1y ago
You don't "program" with punch cards any more than you "program" with text files. They were just the mechanism to get your code into the computer before hard drives and compilers existed.

MontyCarloHall 1y ago

It will certainly be the default for cases where it's easier to read code than to write code, but this is far from universally true. AFAIK, Joel Spolsky was the first to discuss this at length 25 years ago [0], but numerous people have echoed his sentiment [1, 2, 3, ...] One of the most underrated skills in effectively using gen-AI for coding is knowing ahead of time whether it will take longer to carefully review the code it produces, versus writing it from scratch yourself. [0] https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-... [1] https://mattrickard.com/its-hard-to-read-code-than-write-it https://mattrickard.com/its-hard-to-read-code-than-write-it [2] https://trishagee.com/presentations/reading_code/ https://trishagee.com/presentations/reading_code/ [3] https://idiallo.com/blog/writing-code-is-easy-reading-is-hard https://idiallo.com/blog/writing-code-is-easy-reading-is-har... [...] https://www.google.com/search?q=it%27s+harder+to+read+code+than+write+it https://www.google.com/search?q=it%27s+harder+to+read+code+t...

crabmusket 1y ago

As much as I dislike the ecosystem around AI and don't enjoy using them as tools: this is the answer. We don't need a word for "doing the job properly with new tools".

iahds9uasd 1y ago

I feel nauseous when I read comments like this. Does no one here actually like programming?

MontyCarloHall 1y ago
I don't like the kind of programming that an LLM can easily accomplish. For instance, I recently had to replace a hard-coded parameter with something specifiable on the command line, in an unfamiliar behemoth of a Java project. The hard-coded value was literally 20 function calls deep in a heavily dependency-injected stack, and the argument parser was of course bespoke. Claude Code oneshotted this in about 30 seconds. It took me all of 5 minutes to read through its implementation and verify that it correctly called the custom argument parser and percolated its value down all 20 layers of the stack. The hour of my time I got back from having to parse through all those layers myself was spent on the sort of programming I love, the kind that LLMs are bad at: things like novel algorithm development, low-level optimizations, designing elegant and maintainable code architecture, etc.
- ares623 1y ago
  wait you were unfamiliar with a behemoth Java project to the point of dreading making the change yourself, and yet only spent 5 minutes reviewing "someone else's" PR?
  - MontyCarloHall 1y ago
    Yup. Replacing a single hard-coded parameter with a command line argument is hardly an earth shattering change. It's trivial to verify that the argument properly gets passed down the stack (and that passing it has no side-effects), but figuring out that stack in the first place would have taken a much longer time. Think of it like an NP-complete problem: hard to solve, but easy to check that a solution is correct. For more complex modifications, I would have taken the time to better internalize the code architecture myself. But for a no-brainer case like this, an LLM oneshot is perfect.
    - 1y ago

est 1y ago

Linus Torvalds: 'Talk is cheap. Show me the code' Today: 'code is cheap, show me the talk'

wilsonnb3 1y ago

I dunno, I feel lately like we are right at the tail end of the honeymoon era and about to enter the era where the blog topic du jour is “use LLMs, not too much, mostly on a short leash”. Not much to base that on other than vibes, though :)

etwigg 1y ago

brick-and-mortar coding