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Interesting. So they have a history of attempting to legislate authoritarian rules that restrict civil liberties for citizens?

by zaphar 1y ago

natebc 1y ago
In Germany? Yes. Yes, they do.
croes 1y ago
The tried to prohibit inclusive language
- pezezin 1y ago
  The problem is that most Indo-European languages have grammatical gender, with English being a notable exception. In many cases, trying to fit that inclusive language means contorting or breaking the language grammar in unnatural ways, that's why many people oppose it.
layer8 1y ago
Yes, for example: https://www.bundestag.de/dokumente/textarchiv/2021/kw02-de-praeventionsgewahrsam-816570 https://www.bundestag.de/dokumente/textarchiv/2021/kw02-de-p... https://www.bundestag.de/webarchiv/textarchiv/2018/kw08-de-vollverschleierung-542282 https://www.bundestag.de/webarchiv/textarchiv/2018/kw08-de-v... https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/304/1930412.pdf https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/304/1930412.pdf https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/111/1911127.pdf https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/111/1911127.pdf
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  The first one is bad indeed, but what's so "authoritarian" about the rest? >https://www.bundestag.de/webarchiv/textarchiv/2018/kw08-de-vollverschleierung-542282 https://www.bundestag.de/webarchiv/textarchiv/2018/kw08-de-v... Other European countries like Switzerland, also banned full face veils(burqas) in public. Try entering a bank, city hall, school, etc with a balaclava, ski mask or motorcycle helmet see how that goes. >https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/304/1930412.pdf https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/304/1930412.pdf Allowing the surveillance of minors if they show signs of radicalization? This to me makes sense under existing child protection laws. If kids are being raised in environments that are harmful to themselves and society, should we just sit by and let them get permanently wrecked till they reach adulthood, over a technicality? The earlier you can catch the issues the better for everyone and the higher the chance you can rescue the child. Existing child protection laws in Germany already allow the state a lot of power to take children away from parents if they're seen as unfit. >https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/111/1911127.pdf https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/111/1911127.pdf Taking citizenship away from those who voluntarily join terrorist organizations like ISIS? 100% agree with this, how could you not? These are common sense viewpoints a lot of Europeans agree with, not authoritarian ones.
  - tvier 1y ago
    Controlling how people dress sounds pretty authoritarian to me. The fact that it's currently not acceptable to enter a bank with a covered face would indicate a law banning it in all public locations is not needed. Taking rights away from people labelled as terrorists is a pretty standard way for governments to control viewpoints. It gives them the power to add any group they don't like to a list, and deport/imprison them with minimal judicial process. I don't know enough about surveillance of minors to comment on that one.
    - coderenegade 1y ago
      To play devil's advocate, isn't it illegal wear a swastika in Germany? How is wearing a burqa, a symbol of female oppression any different? Freedom of religion only goes so far, because the culture of the host country takes precedence. To take it to the extreme, if there were a religion where part of standard practice involved assaulting women and children, we would obviously limit those practices.
      - AnthonyMouse 1y ago
        The ban on swastikas in Germany is an authoritarian law, it's just one which is popular enough there that there isn't enough support to repeal it despite it being an unambiguous constraint on speech. Non-consensual violence is prohibited because it directly harms other people. Face coverings don't directly harm anyone and laws that exist only for the government's convenience are authoritarian laws. There are ways to investigate bank robberies even if the robbers are wearing masks and in fact a law against masks is fairly ridiculous because anyone willing to break the law against robbing banks would be willing to break a law against wearing a face covering, so such laws only afflict innocent people.
        FirmwareBurner 1y ago
        >The ban on swastikas in Germany is an authoritarian law, With this type of logic, all laws authoritarian then, like speeding laws, theft laws, and anything else that prevents you from doing what you want to do becomes authoritarian.

Interesting. So they have a history of attempting to legislate authoritarian rules that restrict civil liberties for citizens?

by zaphar 1y ago

Interesting. So they have a history of attempting to legislate authoritarian rules that restrict civil liberties for citizens?

natebc 1y ago

In Germany? Yes. Yes, they do.

croes 1y ago

The tried to prohibit inclusive language

pezezin 1y ago
The problem is that most Indo-European languages have grammatical gender, with English being a notable exception. In many cases, trying to fit that inclusive language means contorting or breaking the language grammar in unnatural ways, that's why many people oppose it.

layer8 1y ago

Yes, for example: https://www.bundestag.de/dokumente/textarchiv/2021/kw02-de-praeventionsgewahrsam-816570 https://www.bundestag.de/dokumente/textarchiv/2021/kw02-de-p... https://www.bundestag.de/webarchiv/textarchiv/2018/kw08-de-vollverschleierung-542282 https://www.bundestag.de/webarchiv/textarchiv/2018/kw08-de-v... https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/304/1930412.pdf https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/304/1930412.pdf https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/111/1911127.pdf https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/111/1911127.pdf

FirmwareBurner 1y ago
The first one is bad indeed, but what's so "authoritarian" about the rest? >https://www.bundestag.de/webarchiv/textarchiv/2018/kw08-de-vollverschleierung-542282 https://www.bundestag.de/webarchiv/textarchiv/2018/kw08-de-v... Other European countries like Switzerland, also banned full face veils(burqas) in public. Try entering a bank, city hall, school, etc with a balaclava, ski mask or motorcycle helmet see how that goes. >https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/304/1930412.pdf https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/304/1930412.pdf Allowing the surveillance of minors if they show signs of radicalization? This to me makes sense under existing child protection laws. If kids are being raised in environments that are harmful to themselves and society, should we just sit by and let them get permanently wrecked till they reach adulthood, over a technicality? The earlier you can catch the issues the better for everyone and the higher the chance you can rescue the child. Existing child protection laws in Germany already allow the state a lot of power to take children away from parents if they're seen as unfit. >https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/111/1911127.pdf https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/111/1911127.pdf Taking citizenship away from those who voluntarily join terrorist organizations like ISIS? 100% agree with this, how could you not? These are common sense viewpoints a lot of Europeans agree with, not authoritarian ones.
- tvier 1y ago
  Controlling how people dress sounds pretty authoritarian to me. The fact that it's currently not acceptable to enter a bank with a covered face would indicate a law banning it in all public locations is not needed. Taking rights away from people labelled as terrorists is a pretty standard way for governments to control viewpoints. It gives them the power to add any group they don't like to a list, and deport/imprison them with minimal judicial process. I don't know enough about surveillance of minors to comment on that one.
  - coderenegade 1y ago
    To play devil's advocate, isn't it illegal wear a swastika in Germany? How is wearing a burqa, a symbol of female oppression any different? Freedom of religion only goes so far, because the culture of the host country takes precedence. To take it to the extreme, if there were a religion where part of standard practice involved assaulting women and children, we would obviously limit those practices.
    - AnthonyMouse 1y ago
      The ban on swastikas in Germany is an authoritarian law, it's just one which is popular enough there that there isn't enough support to repeal it despite it being an unambiguous constraint on speech. Non-consensual violence is prohibited because it directly harms other people. Face coverings don't directly harm anyone and laws that exist only for the government's convenience are authoritarian laws. There are ways to investigate bank robberies even if the robbers are wearing masks and in fact a law against masks is fairly ridiculous because anyone willing to break the law against robbing banks would be willing to break a law against wearing a face covering, so such laws only afflict innocent people.
      - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
        >The ban on swastikas in Germany is an authoritarian law, With this type of logic, all laws authoritarian then, like speeding laws, theft laws, and anything else that prevents you from doing what you want to do becomes authoritarian.