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This is strange, because not long ago it was Germany (!!) that pushed heavily for mass-sniffing of people. I don't trust this. People should watch very, very ca

This is strange, because not long ago it was Germany (!!) that pushed heavily for mass-sniffing of people. I don't trust this. People should watch very, very carefully what Germany is actually doing next. I would not be surprised if the mass-sniffing comes in a few months when nobody is looking.

kragen 1y ago
Zensursula von der Leyen is from the CDU, specifically.
- 1718627440 1y ago
  van der Leyen was "promoted" to the EU, because she became uncomfortable for Germany and the CDU.
jasonvorhe 1y ago
Germany will not abandon chat control just like the data perseveration they're so keen on. Europe is preparing for war so they need ways to make opposition more difficult. They're just waiting for the opportune moment where the opposition to these acts won't be as organized or is distracted with something else.
- mx7zysuj4xew 1y ago
  What war, against who? I don't know what kind of narrative you are tying to push here but know that any attempt would immediately meet strong opposition (I've seen the graves of Verdun and I for one would do anything to actively undermine and sabotage any kind of active war effort)
  - lupusreal 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - sho_hn 1y ago
      Can we do better than have Europe fall apart in a Hacker News comment thread? :)
    - asyx 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - rrr_oh_man 1y ago
        > NATO countries pushing for war with Russia is a far right talking point Talking point or not, is there truth in this statement?
        mopsi 1y ago
        Couldn't be further from the truth. Just look at how NATO countries have tiptoed around supporting Ukraine. Every major step (artillery shells, tanks, rocket artillery, air defense systems, and fighter jets) took ages of largely pointless discussion before the decision was made. Not to mention the very weak response to Russian military intelligence terror cells that have been caught red-handed across Europe in recent years while they were preparing attacks like smuggling incendiary devices onto DHL cargo airplanes. If this isn't an unbelievably unconfrontational reaction to Russia's actions, then what is?
        rrr_oh_man 1y ago
        Absolutely fair point, the response has been weak. But here's the thing. The official action is slow, but the media stories about the threat are turned up to eleven, 24/7. For a year & a half the story about the Nord Stream bombing was "Russia did it". End of discussion. Then it turns out it was probably some Ukrainian group, and everyone just shrugs and moves on. The original media-instilled fear doesn't disappear, though. And that fear is what they use to sell us things like Chat Control. So... when you mention "Russian military intelligence terror cells caught red-handed," my bar for skepticism is raised. I'm not saying it's impossible (on the contrary, militaries have been doing hybrid warfare for ALL of known human history), I'm just always failing to find the convictions that should follow someone being caught red-handed.
- bluebarbet 1y ago
  There are plenty of places to post this kind of vacuous, nihilistic, unsourced conspiracism. Please, not here.
  - jasonvorhe 1y ago
    Yeah, it's getting quite obvious that HN prefers to remain within the bounds of Wikipedia, NYT/WaPo narratives. Good luck with that, I'll just refrain from commenting on these topics. It's useless anyways.
layer8 1y ago
There is considerable opposition in Germany against these things. It’s true that some political circles keep pushing for it, but there is also a strong constitutional and civil basis against it. It’s exceedingly unlikely to happen that “nobody is looking”. The biggest risk is the far right coming into power.
- TylerLives 1y ago
  Are they pushing for it?
  - layer8 1y ago
    No, they position themselves against it, because they have a narrative similar to the (former) “deep state” narrative in the US, but you can be assured that they will reverse course as soon as they can afford it.
    - zaphar 1y ago
      I'm not familiar with the far right in Germany. Why should we be assured that they will reverse course as soon as they can afford it?
      - peterlk 1y ago
        Because, similar to the US, they have authoritarian tendencies - strong nationalism and anti-immigration. How are you going to round up the bad people if you don't have surveillance everywhere?
        zaphar 1y ago
        I am unclear on how strong nationalism is an authoritarian signal. Can you go into more detail there?
        shakna 1y ago
sunaookami 1y ago
Never trust the CDU. They were the ones pushing for the illegal data retention (Vorratsdatenspeicherung) and von der Leyen from the CDU is big on censorship and mass surveillance. They are just against it now because the country has bigger problems and the CDU has the worst approval ratings in history.
- IlikeKitties 1y ago
  > Never trust the CDU. > Never trust the SPD. I'm borderline not joking that there should be warning labels like those on cigarettes on the ballot when voting.
  - vladms 1y ago
    At voting is a bit late probably. You don't just trust leaders, you watch, you criticize, you communicate and sometimes you act. Political or otherwise as a matter of fact
thewebguyd 1y ago
> I would not be surprised if the mass-sniffing comes in a few months when nobody is looking. That's the problem with these proposed laws. We (privacy advocates) have to constantly fight and win over and over again. The nations that want this mass spying only have to win once. We need a way to permanently stop these proposals once defeated the first time so that they cannot just continue to try over and over again until it passes.
- echelon 1y ago
  > We (privacy advocates) have to constantly fight and win over and over again. We do have a way to reinforce our position, though! We can design and consume technology that makes this hard. We can stop working for companies that build centralized platforms for messaging. We can teach our neighbors how important rights to privacy and speech are in language that they understand. There can be enough friction that this becomes harder for politicians. Remember the Reddit Sopa and Pipa protests? - that was pretty epic! I don't think Reddit will help us in its current state, but we can absolutely mount those defenses on Wikipedia, Mastodon, Bluesky, and others. And we should continue to move off of platforms that don't align with our freedoms. And build our platforms in a way that encourages "normies" to join.
  - tdrz 1y ago
    Yes to all of the above! I just want to whine a bit that every time I try to educate anybody about this, I am promised a tin foil hat in return (even from Software Engineers!).
    - scrps 1y ago
      The tinfoil hat treatment is due to the fact that these days everything that fits the mould of a conspiracy theory is dismissed simply for fitting the mould of a conspiracy theory. In the same time as this cultural headspace was being cultivated in the US: A billionaire pedophile ran a covert sex ring with a suspected who's who of a client list who was almost barely prosecuted for "reasons™" Social media companies caught red-handed psychologically manipulating users for various ends Damn near everyone helping to destroy actual free speech and privacy willingly because they've been talked into it (ironic) Governments that engage in mass surveillance so egregious if you had tried it 40 years ago there would have been an uprising. Aided by the tech community I might add. Industries that abuse data and algorithms to manipulate pricing or commit outright fraud. A pharma corp addicting countless americans to opioids with almost no real consequence, killing hundreds of thousands and ruining millions of families. Several industries have poisoned the planet and its inhabitants in various long term ways for profit. And yet if you suggest something is a conspiracy it is dismissed as the ravings of a lunatic. Speaking of conspiracies that doesn't sound like an accident... The trick to conspiracy theories is critical thinking and not uncritical dismissal. If I have any words of consolation: when the "conspiracy theory" turns out to be more practice than theory you get to say I told you so. Edit: typo
peatmoss 1y ago
I can't remember where I read it, but I read that Signal's popularity was high (highest?) in Germany. Assuming I'm not misremembering or that the situation hasn't changed, it seems that Germans care enough about the issue to stake out a position.
kwanbix 1y ago
They probably missed a fax
ajsnigrutin 1y ago
They'll do nothing now, people don't want it, people complain, it's a bad thing politically. They'll wait for a year, people will forget, a new proposal for "Clean Chat" will appear, with effectively the same measures, they'll try to pass it quietly, maybe no one will notice, maybe there will be a terrorist attack or something similar by then, and more people will want it, and if it fails again, rinse and repeat a year after. They only need to succeed once, we (the ones opposing the law) have to succeed every time.
bapak 1y ago
It's almost as if they're different people with varying agendas.

kragen 1y ago

Zensursula von der Leyen is from the CDU, specifically.

1718627440 1y ago
van der Leyen was "promoted" to the EU, because she became uncomfortable for Germany and the CDU.

jasonvorhe 1y ago

Germany will not abandon chat control just like the data perseveration they're so keen on. Europe is preparing for war so they need ways to make opposition more difficult. They're just waiting for the opportune moment where the opposition to these acts won't be as organized or is distracted with something else.

mx7zysuj4xew 1y ago
What war, against who? I don't know what kind of narrative you are tying to push here but know that any attempt would immediately meet strong opposition (I've seen the graves of Verdun and I for one would do anything to actively undermine and sabotage any kind of active war effort)
- lupusreal 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - sho_hn 1y ago
    Can we do better than have Europe fall apart in a Hacker News comment thread? :)
  - asyx 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - rrr_oh_man 1y ago
      > NATO countries pushing for war with Russia is a far right talking point Talking point or not, is there truth in this statement?
      - mopsi 1y ago
        Couldn't be further from the truth. Just look at how NATO countries have tiptoed around supporting Ukraine. Every major step (artillery shells, tanks, rocket artillery, air defense systems, and fighter jets) took ages of largely pointless discussion before the decision was made. Not to mention the very weak response to Russian military intelligence terror cells that have been caught red-handed across Europe in recent years while they were preparing attacks like smuggling incendiary devices onto DHL cargo airplanes. If this isn't an unbelievably unconfrontational reaction to Russia's actions, then what is?
        rrr_oh_man 1y ago
        Absolutely fair point, the response has been weak. But here's the thing. The official action is slow, but the media stories about the threat are turned up to eleven, 24/7. For a year & a half the story about the Nord Stream bombing was "Russia did it". End of discussion. Then it turns out it was probably some Ukrainian group, and everyone just shrugs and moves on. The original media-instilled fear doesn't disappear, though. And that fear is what they use to sell us things like Chat Control. So... when you mention "Russian military intelligence terror cells caught red-handed," my bar for skepticism is raised. I'm not saying it's impossible (on the contrary, militaries have been doing hybrid warfare for ALL of known human history), I'm just always failing to find the convictions that should follow someone being caught red-handed.
bluebarbet 1y ago
There are plenty of places to post this kind of vacuous, nihilistic, unsourced conspiracism. Please, not here.
- jasonvorhe 1y ago
  Yeah, it's getting quite obvious that HN prefers to remain within the bounds of Wikipedia, NYT/WaPo narratives. Good luck with that, I'll just refrain from commenting on these topics. It's useless anyways.

layer8 1y ago

There is considerable opposition in Germany against these things. It’s true that some political circles keep pushing for it, but there is also a strong constitutional and civil basis against it. It’s exceedingly unlikely to happen that “nobody is looking”. The biggest risk is the far right coming into power.

TylerLives 1y ago
Are they pushing for it?
- layer8 1y ago
  No, they position themselves against it, because they have a narrative similar to the (former) “deep state” narrative in the US, but you can be assured that they will reverse course as soon as they can afford it.
  - zaphar 1y ago
    I'm not familiar with the far right in Germany. Why should we be assured that they will reverse course as soon as they can afford it?
    - peterlk 1y ago
      Because, similar to the US, they have authoritarian tendencies - strong nationalism and anti-immigration. How are you going to round up the bad people if you don't have surveillance everywhere?
      - zaphar 1y ago
        I am unclear on how strong nationalism is an authoritarian signal. Can you go into more detail there?
        shakna 1y ago

sunaookami 1y ago

Never trust the CDU. They were the ones pushing for the illegal data retention (Vorratsdatenspeicherung) and von der Leyen from the CDU is big on censorship and mass surveillance. They are just against it now because the country has bigger problems and the CDU has the worst approval ratings in history.

IlikeKitties 1y ago
> Never trust the CDU. > Never trust the SPD. I'm borderline not joking that there should be warning labels like those on cigarettes on the ballot when voting.
- vladms 1y ago
  At voting is a bit late probably. You don't just trust leaders, you watch, you criticize, you communicate and sometimes you act. Political or otherwise as a matter of fact

thewebguyd 1y ago

> I would not be surprised if the mass-sniffing comes in a few months when nobody is looking. That's the problem with these proposed laws. We (privacy advocates) have to constantly fight and win over and over again. The nations that want this mass spying only have to win once. We need a way to permanently stop these proposals once defeated the first time so that they cannot just continue to try over and over again until it passes.

echelon 1y ago
> We (privacy advocates) have to constantly fight and win over and over again. We do have a way to reinforce our position, though! We can design and consume technology that makes this hard. We can stop working for companies that build centralized platforms for messaging. We can teach our neighbors how important rights to privacy and speech are in language that they understand. There can be enough friction that this becomes harder for politicians. Remember the Reddit Sopa and Pipa protests? - that was pretty epic! I don't think Reddit will help us in its current state, but we can absolutely mount those defenses on Wikipedia, Mastodon, Bluesky, and others. And we should continue to move off of platforms that don't align with our freedoms. And build our platforms in a way that encourages "normies" to join.
- tdrz 1y ago
  Yes to all of the above! I just want to whine a bit that every time I try to educate anybody about this, I am promised a tin foil hat in return (even from Software Engineers!).
  - scrps 1y ago
    The tinfoil hat treatment is due to the fact that these days everything that fits the mould of a conspiracy theory is dismissed simply for fitting the mould of a conspiracy theory. In the same time as this cultural headspace was being cultivated in the US: A billionaire pedophile ran a covert sex ring with a suspected who's who of a client list who was almost barely prosecuted for "reasons™" Social media companies caught red-handed psychologically manipulating users for various ends Damn near everyone helping to destroy actual free speech and privacy willingly because they've been talked into it (ironic) Governments that engage in mass surveillance so egregious if you had tried it 40 years ago there would have been an uprising. Aided by the tech community I might add. Industries that abuse data and algorithms to manipulate pricing or commit outright fraud. A pharma corp addicting countless americans to opioids with almost no real consequence, killing hundreds of thousands and ruining millions of families. Several industries have poisoned the planet and its inhabitants in various long term ways for profit. And yet if you suggest something is a conspiracy it is dismissed as the ravings of a lunatic. Speaking of conspiracies that doesn't sound like an accident... The trick to conspiracy theories is critical thinking and not uncritical dismissal. If I have any words of consolation: when the "conspiracy theory" turns out to be more practice than theory you get to say I told you so. Edit: typo

peatmoss 1y ago

I can't remember where I read it, but I read that Signal's popularity was high (highest?) in Germany. Assuming I'm not misremembering or that the situation hasn't changed, it seems that Germans care enough about the issue to stake out a position.

kwanbix 1y ago

They probably missed a fax

ajsnigrutin 1y ago

They'll do nothing now, people don't want it, people complain, it's a bad thing politically. They'll wait for a year, people will forget, a new proposal for "Clean Chat" will appear, with effectively the same measures, they'll try to pass it quietly, maybe no one will notice, maybe there will be a terrorist attack or something similar by then, and more people will want it, and if it fails again, rinse and repeat a year after. They only need to succeed once, we (the ones opposing the law) have to succeed every time.

bapak 1y ago

It's almost as if they're different people with varying agendas.