10 ms·

Leading computer science professor says 'everybody' is struggling to get jobs

61 points by nradov 1y ago

alephnerd 1y ago
Fix the curriculums so I can justify restarting a new grad hiring pipeline in the US. CS (along with ECE/EECS) degrees have been watering down their curriculum for a decade by reducing the amount of hardware, low level, and theory courses that remain requirements abroad. Just take a look at the curriculum changes for the CSE major (course 6-3) at MIT in the 2025 [0] versus 2017-22 [1] versus pre-2017 [2] - there is a steady decrease in the amount of table stakes EE/CE content like circuits, signals, computer architecture, and OS dev (all of which are building blocks for Cybersecurity and ML) and an increased amount in math. Nothing wrong with increasing the math content, but reducing the ECE content in a CSE major is bad given how tightly coupled software is with hardware. We are now at a point where an entire generation of CSE majors in America do not know what a series or parallel circuit is. And this trend has been happening at every program in the US over the past 10 years. I CANNOT JUSTIFY building a new grad pipeline in cybersecurity, DevSecOps, CloudSec, MLOps, Infra Silicon Design, or ML Infra with people who don't understand how a jump register works, the difference between BPF and eBPF, or how to derive a restricted Boltzmann machine (for my ML researcher hires) - not because they need to know it on the job, but because it betrays a lack of fundamental knowledge. I can find new grad candidates with a similar profile at a handful of domestic CS programs (Cal included), but (Cal specific) someone with a BA CS from LAS who never touched CS152, CS161, CS162, or CS168 isn't getting hired into the early career pipeline for a security startup when they took CS160, CS169L, or CS169A because they are "easier", or isn't getting hired as a junior MLE if they didn't take all the more theoretical undergrad ML classes at Cal like CS182, CS185, CS188, and CS189. And even worse if they are a BA DS without a second fundamental major like AMATH or IEOR. [0] - https://eecsis.mit.edu/degree_requirements.html#6-3_2025 https://eecsis.mit.edu/degree_requirements.html#6-3_2025 [1] - https://eecsis.mit.edu/degree_requirements.html#6-3_2017 https://eecsis.mit.edu/degree_requirements.html#6-3_2017 [2] - https://www.scribd.com/document/555216170/6-3-roadmap https://www.scribd.com/document/555216170/6-3-roadmap ------------- Edit: can't reply so replying here > Give me a new grad with strong fundamentals, a love of programming, and an interest in the domain and I'll teach them in sixth months whatever they missed in college that's relevant to the job I 100% agree. A lot of core foundational classes that at the very least build the mindset of how to problem solve are not offered or have severely reduced the curriculum and content offered. > until the implication that it's learning the nitty-gritty details that's important. Not what I meant. What I mean is you can't understand or ramp up on (eg.) eBPF without understanding how the Linux Kernel, syscalls, and registries work. If you don't have the foundations down, I can't justify spending $120k base plus 30% in benefits and taxes hiring you out of college. > These are kind oddly specific criteria I'm giving random examples from individual portfolio companies > Are those really things you think new grads need to know This is the kind of curriculum a new grad from Cal (be they on F1 OPT or a citizen) are competing with when my portfolio companies have hired new grads. TAU - https://exact-sciences.m.tau.ac.il/yedion/2021-22/computer_single_major https://exact-sciences.m.tau.ac.il/yedion/2021-22/computer_s... IITD - https://www.cse.iitd.ac.in/academics/btech_links/curriculum.shtml https://www.cse.iitd.ac.in/academics/btech_links/curriculum.... Uniwersytet Warszawski - https://informatorects.uw.edu.pl/en/programmes-all/IN/S1-INF/ https://informatorects.uw.edu.pl/en/programmes-all/IN/S1-INF... Babeş-Bolayai University - https://cci.ubbcluj.ro/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/Curricula-courses-in-English.pdf#page7 https://cci.ubbcluj.ro/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/Curricula-... There is a level of mathematical or hardware-software maturity that is built into top programs abroad that make it hard to justify hiring new grads domestically. In Israel, India, much of Eastern Europe, and China - all universities follow the same curriculum as defined by their Ministries of Education. I can find new grad candidates with a similar profile at a handful of domestic CS programs (Cal included), but someone with a BA CS from LAS who never touched CS152, CS161, CS162, or CS168 isn't getting hired into the pipeline for a cybersecurity vendor when they took CS160, CS169L, or CS169A because they are "easier".
- hiddencost 1y ago
  This is a non sequitur. I know plenty of people with world class low level chops who can't hired right now. This is about market forces.
  - alephnerd 1y ago
    Send me their resumes to my username at protonmail.com then. I'll be the judge to decide whether or not they have the skills needed to justify a US hire.
    - dgfitz 1y ago
      I have most of the skills you list, and I am extremely confident I could fill in the gaps within weeks. Given your presentation here, I'd like to know where you work so I don't accidently end up working for you, or with you. The elitism is at an 11. We're not special, we just have a skillset that isn't exclusively webdev. BFD.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - healthymomo 1y ago
      Hey i got address not found error for alephnerd@protonmail.com But you can find my resume in https://momoisgoodforhealth.github.io/ https://momoisgoodforhealth.github.io/
      - alephnerd 1y ago
        Sadly, not enough CS exposure (or not communicated the right way). At your stage, I'd recommend staying at your current job and doing an online PT masters like GT's OMSCS in order to bridge the CS gap, while also building the YoE to make the jump. In this market, landing where you are at right now is a feat unto itself. I'm also not sure about your citizenship based on your background - most companies (especially early stage) are hesitant to hire and sponsor early career (despite what HNers say). > i got address not found error Whoops, I meant the new Protonmail suffix.
bgwalter 1y ago
Like many in the AI space, Farid said that those who use breakthrough technologies will outlast those who don't. "AI" professor tells everyone to use "AI". With the usual fatalism that nothing can ever be done about anything. One option for example would be to fire all "AI" professors. Another one would be to outlaw "AI", just as nuclear energy was outlawed in Germany and DDT was banned worldwide.
- oytis 1y ago
  Even if it was a good idea - how would you draw a boundary between AI and the rest of computing? In the end you'd have to go full Butlerian Jihad and prohibit computation in general, or at least limit allowed computing power.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - walleeee 1y ago
    > limit allowed computing power This will of course be the policy set by physics once we have exhausted all the easily accessible energy reserves: limited everything power. Nature will conduct Butlerian jihad with no great zeal or ardor, but with just patience.
    - BobaFloutist 1y ago
      That's going to take a very long time, there's massive amounts of solar, geothermal, and wind energy left available. Hell, natural gas is a waste product of oil drilling.
sleepyguy 1y ago
The elephant in the room: the H1B visa and the influx of Indian workers into the U.S. labor market. Many of them are willing to work for lower wages, demand less, and have fewer rights—essentially becoming exploited labor for Corporate America. Why would a corporation hire an American graduate who won’t tolerate these conditions when an H1B worker will? Instead of confronting the issue directly, people often sidestep it with other excuses. The reality is, if we eliminated all H1B workers, every American in the IT industry, including recent graduates, would have a job. And don’t try to convince me that a Java developer from India possesses skills that our university graduates don’t.
- gjsman-1000 1y ago
  > And don’t try to convince me that a Java developer from India possesses skills that our university graduates don’t. Everyone defending H1Bs forgets why we even have an economy. America never signed up to be some hegemon that needs to compete with the entire world. America exists for the sake of Americans, not the world, first and foremost. We can help other people after that point. You get revolutions and revolutionary acts when it feels that the opportunity for foreigners and the aristocratic is exceeding opportunity for the normal everyday people born here, and that is a legitimate injustice.
  - hvb2 1y ago
    > America exists for the sake of Americans, not the world, first and foremost. We can help other people after that point. But you do want to sell to all of the world, am I correct? So you basically want the pros and none of the cons? And you also expect the rest of the world to buy an your debt? Because America as a country would be bankrupt instantly if that rest of the world stopped supporting you.
    - gjsman-1000 1y ago
      Almost every country short of Liechtenstein would be bankrupt if other countries stopped buying their debt. As such, the argument is not relevant, unless you believe that ethnicity has no correlation to country, and India should welcome Americans just as well.
jmclnx 1y ago
I would like to know what is meant by "Computer science jobs". To me, Computer Science would be like research type jobs. I know nothing about this field, but I expect it has always been and always will be very hard to get into this field. Then you have these programming jobs: IT would be working on Internal Applications for a Business. These days would usually mean supporting or in-house custom developing for things like SAP or Oracle. This is what I did, in the 70s/80s/90s it was all in-house systems. Starting early 2000s, systems like SAP. I have since retired but I know where I last worked, that company was moving these jobs outside the US. From friends still there, those moves have increased quite a bit. Maybe work could be still available in small companies. Then there are working at startups, which is rare but gets all the press, I know nothing about this area. Then there is working a a company that develops software for sale (like SAP), I tend to think this is starting to go the way of IT work mentioned above.
- bongodongobob 1y ago
  It's all of that. When I was in college, the programming degree was called Computer Science.
- nradov 1y ago
  Right so there's currently a mismatch between higher education and industry. Ideally Computer Science is a branch of Applied Mathematics primarily concerned with the theory of computation. But due to demand from students who want to get industry jobs instead of doing research, many schools have "polluted" their CS majors with more practical programming courses. This confuses the issue and doesn't do anyone any good. A better approach would be to have separate majors targeted towards students who want industry careers. I would suggest two separate tracks: Software Engineering which would take a disciplined, analytical approach and Software Development which would treat software construction for like a fine art, akin to sculpture or music performance.
  - AnimalMuppet 1y ago
    To me, Computer Science is about the theory of computation, and the analysis of algorithms, and to some degree about the design of computer programming languages. Software Engineering is about the efficient[1] production[2] of larger-scale programs that adequately meet the need[3]. Software Development as a separate topic... maybe, for some things like games and UI. I don't really see it as a separate field, though. [1] "Efficient" is actually a lie, but the sentence was already long enough as it is. I really should have said "somewhat less inefficient". You can never make it efficient. (The fundamental problem is that brain-to-brain transfer of technical information is slow, inefficient, and lossy.) But if you don't control the inefficiency, it's going to destroy your project. [2] Production and maintenance. Larger-scale software also tends to be longer lasting; if you don't build something maintainable, you fail. [3] This does not mean bug-free! But it means that the amount and severity of the bugs do not destroy the usefulness of the software.
yangikan 1y ago
The high salaries commanded by FAANG engineers right out of college motivated a lot of students to take up computer science as a major and this led to a massive oversupply. It might take a few years to cool. https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/careers/computer-science-majors-job-market-7ad443bf?st=yt57fymr3344bng&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/careers/computer-science-major... "Between 2018 and 2023, the number of students majoring in computer and information science jumped from about 444,000 to 628,000." Around 40% of MIT graduates are now in CS https://alum.mit.edu/slice/conversation-new-computing-dean-alumnus-daniel-huttenlocher https://alum.mit.edu/slice/conversation-new-computing-dean-a... Further, COVID has reduced a lot of friction for remote work, so now there is also global competition for these jobs.
- laidoffamazon 1y ago
  MIT graduates are not going to be struggling for anything, much less for new grad jobs. They're among the most privileged humans to exist on earth by nature of their degree and admission.
  - deleted 1y ago
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  - HPsquared 1y ago
    Corollary: if MIT graduates are struggling to find jobs, the market conditions must be really bad for graduates.
    - laidoffamazon 1y ago
      I challenge the premise. They’re doing fine. They’re getting $600k a year to work at OpenAI and HRT
      - Kye 1y ago
        Or working at cable companies watching for alien timing signals.
red_rech 1y ago
I’m still desperately looking for an out from this industry. The layoff and market conditions helped me realized just how useless my career has been. I knew I never wanted to work professionally in software, but it was the only thing accessible that pays well. Even now it’s the only thing keeping me afloat, so I don’t see any way out but slow painful [career] death.
- HPsquared 1y ago
  I'd do software (or other engineering work) even if I was paid the same as a cashier. It's just enjoyable work. Horses for courses.
  - seneca 1y ago
    Agreed. I think we're a shrinking group though. Many got into this profession for high pay and easy work, which is understandable, but not that the shine has worn off they're regretting the choice. Those of us who enjoy the work will remain, but we shouldn't be glad to see the change.
  - red_rech 1y ago
    I like software, just not in any capacity anyone would pay me to work
- tarwich 1y ago
  I feel you. I don't hate computers, but the insecurity of late is unsettling.
- Balgair 1y ago
  Come to Biotech! We desperately need programmers with any sort of skills. The pay is not as good, but the companies are more stable (generally) and the benefits are fine. Mostly remote work for programming. You'll have to deal with bio people too. Family friendly.
  - ponector 1y ago
    >> We desperately need programmers with any sort of skills I doubt you are hiring people without education degree in biology.
HPsquared 1y ago
Engineering and construction type careers in general, anything involving "capital investment", are very sensitive to market conditions. That is, future expectations. Very boom and bust, dependent on credit.
strict9 1y ago
Tech employers are saying it's efficiencies gained in AI that led to layoffs for the past few years. Yet they have increased headcount in engineering offices in other countries at the same time. This is also happening at small and midsize companies that ship software. It's easy to find this information, particularly for the largest companies like Amazon, Microsoft, and Google. Like the article states, there are a number of confounding factors. But it's not AI, no matter how much founders and CEOs want it to be true. It's the pursuit of lower cost employees.
- jewelry 1y ago
  That’s because the globally talent works much longer hours at lower salary while in US you have to pay 100k for each h1b. Let’s get rid of the ridiculous administration first and then talk about greedy ceo.
  - seneca 1y ago
    Having foreign workers filling the jobs for American companies working on US soil and sending the money home is no better for Americans than having them working in their own countries. Say what you will about this administration, God knows they have flaws. However, they're the only one that has taken steps to actually attempt to help American workers in a generation or more. Every other one has been a revolving door of shipping jobs out or importing cheap foreign labor in.
    - ponector 1y ago
      >>sending the money home is no better for Americans than having them working in their own countries I'm sure they are spending majority of their income locally, the same way as American citizens: buying chinese goods and mexican food. Us government is losing tons of taxes if H1B immigrant is replaced with overseas worker.
  - aleph_minus_one 1y ago
    > while in US you have to pay 100k for each h1b. This is rather evidence that this requirement (at least sometimes) does what it should do: it disincentivizes US branches of companies to hire foreigners in the USA by making such hires more expensive. Thus, instead foreign branches of US companies hire foreigners. Why the complaints: now in the USA less foreigners get hired instead of US citizens, exactly what was requested.
stronglikedan 1y ago
These types of headlines should always end with "for those who cannot or will not move." There's plenty of jobs - just not always in the most popular areas.
- ponector 1y ago
  Would you like to move to Bangalore? For local salary, of course!
phkahler 1y ago
Maybe the internet is complete. Programming was not that big until the internet came along. Writers started writing for web sites, some of them even started learning to code. Huge hoards of people were needed to "build the internet" as we know it today. That process has IMHO been stabilizing for a while now. Every local restaurant has a web site of some sort - some even have an event calendar that is updated regularly. It's not just Google and Amazon, the electronic version of the entire world has been built out. Payment systems are in place - even hobbyists or crafters can take payments online. It took 30 years with countless dead ends and restarts in a number of areas, but we finally have a stable functioning internet with common development tools and practices. Maintenance of this thing is going to take fewer resources than building it took. It kinda makes sense that jobs are getting harder to find. I've been working in product development and embedded software most of this time, and I don't see too much change.
- sltr 1y ago
  The internet != all software jobs. I don't think the internet can be complete anymore than an economy can be complete, but sectors can be mature and/or commoditized. Software is definitely not mature, but AI makes people think it is commoditized (it's not). It's probably more cyclic than systemic and related to the larger economic trends, federal monetary policy, and growing protectionism. But tech is outsized in the economy, so I'm not sure which one is the horse and which is the cart.
  - Gud 1y ago
    No, but the core software may very will be written.
ModernMech 1y ago
I'm a CS professor and this is not really what we are seeing. I'm not at Berkeley but it's an R1. Yes, students on the lower end of the GPA scale are having a harder time finding jobs. But in terms of my program's ability to place students after graduating, the vast majority have been placed. It's important to also note that some who have not found a place did so because the thought they could find a better salary by holding out for longer. So yes, probably average post-grad offer is going down, that's true. But it's definitely not true to say "everybody is struggling to get jobs"
- joquarky 1y ago
  > But it's definitely not true to say "everybody is struggling to get jobs" Most people don't speak or write literally about this kind of subject.
  - ModernMech 1y ago
    We see the evidence in the article of "everybody struggling" is: -Berkeley students haven't gotten as many internship offers and their salaries are not exceedingly high (but they are still getting offers). - He claims his son is struggling. I dunno, maybe he is right but this doesn't sound exactly like Armageddon. Also this: "it's going to be a great career. It is future-proof — that changed in four years" Huh? How is it not still a great career? Just because Berkeley grads can't get insane salaries right out of college? Also, how was is ever future proof -- I've been constantly retraining on technologies for 30 years. This article is just soundbites, nothing to see here.

61 points by nradov 1y ago

Fix the curriculums so I can justify restarting a new grad hiring pipeline in the US. CS (along with ECE/EECS) degrees have been watering down their curriculum for a decade by reducing the amount of hardware, low level, and theory courses that remain requirements abroad. Just take a look at the curriculum changes for the CSE major (course 6-3) at MIT in the 2025 [0] versus 2017-22 [1] versus pre-2017 [2] - there is a steady decrease in the amount of table stakes EE/CE content like circuits, signals, computer architecture, and OS dev (all of which are building blocks for Cybersecurity and ML) and an increased amount in math. Nothing wrong with increasing the math content, but reducing the ECE content in a CSE major is bad given how tightly coupled software is with hardware. We are now at a point where an entire generation of CSE majors in America do not know what a series or parallel circuit is. And this trend has been happening at every program in the US over the past 10 years. I CANNOT JUSTIFY building a new grad pipeline in cybersecurity, DevSecOps, CloudSec, MLOps, Infra Silicon Design, or ML Infra with people who don't understand how a jump register works, the difference between BPF and eBPF, or how to derive a restricted Boltzmann machine (for my ML researcher hires) - not because they need to know it on the job, but because it betrays a lack of fundamental knowledge. I can find new grad candidates with a similar profile at a handful of domestic CS programs (Cal included), but (Cal specific) someone with a BA CS from LAS who never touched CS152, CS161, CS162, or CS168 isn't getting hired into the early career pipeline for a security startup when they took CS160, CS169L, or CS169A because they are "easier", or isn't getting hired as a junior MLE if they didn't take all the more theoretical undergrad ML classes at Cal like CS182, CS185, CS188, and CS189. And even worse if they are a BA DS without a second fundamental major like AMATH or IEOR. [0] - https://eecsis.mit.edu/degree_requirements.html#6-3_2025 https://eecsis.mit.edu/degree_requirements.html#6-3_2025 [1] - https://eecsis.mit.edu/degree_requirements.html#6-3_2017 https://eecsis.mit.edu/degree_requirements.html#6-3_2017 [2] - https://www.scribd.com/document/555216170/6-3-roadmap https://www.scribd.com/document/555216170/6-3-roadmap ------------- Edit: can't reply so replying here > Give me a new grad with strong fundamentals, a love of programming, and an interest in the domain and I'll teach them in sixth months whatever they missed in college that's relevant to the job I 100% agree. A lot of core foundational classes that at the very least build the mindset of how to problem solve are not offered or have severely reduced the curriculum and content offered. > until the implication that it's learning the nitty-gritty details that's important. Not what I meant. What I mean is you can't understand or ramp up on (eg.) eBPF without understanding how the Linux Kernel, syscalls, and registries work. If you don't have the foundations down, I can't justify spending $120k base plus 30% in benefits and taxes hiring you out of college. > These are kind oddly specific criteria I'm giving random examples from individual portfolio companies > Are those really things you think new grads need to know This is the kind of curriculum a new grad from Cal (be they on F1 OPT or a citizen) are competing with when my portfolio companies have hired new grads. TAU - https://exact-sciences.m.tau.ac.il/yedion/2021-22/computer_single_major https://exact-sciences.m.tau.ac.il/yedion/2021-22/computer_s... IITD - https://www.cse.iitd.ac.in/academics/btech_links/curriculum.shtml https://www.cse.iitd.ac.in/academics/btech_links/curriculum.... Uniwersytet Warszawski - https://informatorects.uw.edu.pl/en/programmes-all/IN/S1-INF/ https://informatorects.uw.edu.pl/en/programmes-all/IN/S1-INF... Babeş-Bolayai University - https://cci.ubbcluj.ro/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/Curricula-courses-in-English.pdf#page7 https://cci.ubbcluj.ro/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/Curricula-... There is a level of mathematical or hardware-software maturity that is built into top programs abroad that make it hard to justify hiring new grads domestically. In Israel, India, much of Eastern Europe, and China - all universities follow the same curriculum as defined by their Ministries of Education. I can find new grad candidates with a similar profile at a handful of domestic CS programs (Cal included), but someone with a BA CS from LAS who never touched CS152, CS161, CS162, or CS168 isn't getting hired into the pipeline for a cybersecurity vendor when they took CS160, CS169L, or CS169A because they are "easier".

hiddencost 1y ago
This is a non sequitur. I know plenty of people with world class low level chops who can't hired right now. This is about market forces.
- alephnerd 1y ago
  Send me their resumes to my username at protonmail.com then. I'll be the judge to decide whether or not they have the skills needed to justify a US hire.
  - dgfitz 1y ago
    I have most of the skills you list, and I am extremely confident I could fill in the gaps within weeks. Given your presentation here, I'd like to know where you work so I don't accidently end up working for you, or with you. The elitism is at an 11. We're not special, we just have a skillset that isn't exclusively webdev. BFD.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - healthymomo 1y ago
    Hey i got address not found error for alephnerd@protonmail.com But you can find my resume in https://momoisgoodforhealth.github.io/ https://momoisgoodforhealth.github.io/
    - alephnerd 1y ago
      Sadly, not enough CS exposure (or not communicated the right way). At your stage, I'd recommend staying at your current job and doing an online PT masters like GT's OMSCS in order to bridge the CS gap, while also building the YoE to make the jump. In this market, landing where you are at right now is a feat unto itself. I'm also not sure about your citizenship based on your background - most companies (especially early stage) are hesitant to hire and sponsor early career (despite what HNers say). > i got address not found error Whoops, I meant the new Protonmail suffix.

bgwalter 1y ago

Like many in the AI space, Farid said that those who use breakthrough technologies will outlast those who don't. "AI" professor tells everyone to use "AI". With the usual fatalism that nothing can ever be done about anything. One option for example would be to fire all "AI" professors. Another one would be to outlaw "AI", just as nuclear energy was outlawed in Germany and DDT was banned worldwide.

oytis 1y ago
Even if it was a good idea - how would you draw a boundary between AI and the rest of computing? In the end you'd have to go full Butlerian Jihad and prohibit computation in general, or at least limit allowed computing power.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- walleeee 1y ago
  > limit allowed computing power This will of course be the policy set by physics once we have exhausted all the easily accessible energy reserves: limited everything power. Nature will conduct Butlerian jihad with no great zeal or ardor, but with just patience.
  - BobaFloutist 1y ago
    That's going to take a very long time, there's massive amounts of solar, geothermal, and wind energy left available. Hell, natural gas is a waste product of oil drilling.

sleepyguy 1y ago

The elephant in the room: the H1B visa and the influx of Indian workers into the U.S. labor market. Many of them are willing to work for lower wages, demand less, and have fewer rights—essentially becoming exploited labor for Corporate America. Why would a corporation hire an American graduate who won’t tolerate these conditions when an H1B worker will? Instead of confronting the issue directly, people often sidestep it with other excuses. The reality is, if we eliminated all H1B workers, every American in the IT industry, including recent graduates, would have a job. And don’t try to convince me that a Java developer from India possesses skills that our university graduates don’t.

gjsman-1000 1y ago
> And don’t try to convince me that a Java developer from India possesses skills that our university graduates don’t. Everyone defending H1Bs forgets why we even have an economy. America never signed up to be some hegemon that needs to compete with the entire world. America exists for the sake of Americans, not the world, first and foremost. We can help other people after that point. You get revolutions and revolutionary acts when it feels that the opportunity for foreigners and the aristocratic is exceeding opportunity for the normal everyday people born here, and that is a legitimate injustice.
- hvb2 1y ago
  > America exists for the sake of Americans, not the world, first and foremost. We can help other people after that point. But you do want to sell to all of the world, am I correct? So you basically want the pros and none of the cons? And you also expect the rest of the world to buy an your debt? Because America as a country would be bankrupt instantly if that rest of the world stopped supporting you.
  - gjsman-1000 1y ago
    Almost every country short of Liechtenstein would be bankrupt if other countries stopped buying their debt. As such, the argument is not relevant, unless you believe that ethnicity has no correlation to country, and India should welcome Americans just as well.

jmclnx 1y ago

I would like to know what is meant by "Computer science jobs". To me, Computer Science would be like research type jobs. I know nothing about this field, but I expect it has always been and always will be very hard to get into this field. Then you have these programming jobs: IT would be working on Internal Applications for a Business. These days would usually mean supporting or in-house custom developing for things like SAP or Oracle. This is what I did, in the 70s/80s/90s it was all in-house systems. Starting early 2000s, systems like SAP. I have since retired but I know where I last worked, that company was moving these jobs outside the US. From friends still there, those moves have increased quite a bit. Maybe work could be still available in small companies. Then there are working at startups, which is rare but gets all the press, I know nothing about this area. Then there is working a a company that develops software for sale (like SAP), I tend to think this is starting to go the way of IT work mentioned above.

bongodongobob 1y ago
It's all of that. When I was in college, the programming degree was called Computer Science.
nradov 1y ago
Right so there's currently a mismatch between higher education and industry. Ideally Computer Science is a branch of Applied Mathematics primarily concerned with the theory of computation. But due to demand from students who want to get industry jobs instead of doing research, many schools have "polluted" their CS majors with more practical programming courses. This confuses the issue and doesn't do anyone any good. A better approach would be to have separate majors targeted towards students who want industry careers. I would suggest two separate tracks: Software Engineering which would take a disciplined, analytical approach and Software Development which would treat software construction for like a fine art, akin to sculpture or music performance.
- AnimalMuppet 1y ago
  To me, Computer Science is about the theory of computation, and the analysis of algorithms, and to some degree about the design of computer programming languages. Software Engineering is about the efficient[1] production[2] of larger-scale programs that adequately meet the need[3]. Software Development as a separate topic... maybe, for some things like games and UI. I don't really see it as a separate field, though. [1] "Efficient" is actually a lie, but the sentence was already long enough as it is. I really should have said "somewhat less inefficient". You can never make it efficient. (The fundamental problem is that brain-to-brain transfer of technical information is slow, inefficient, and lossy.) But if you don't control the inefficiency, it's going to destroy your project. [2] Production and maintenance. Larger-scale software also tends to be longer lasting; if you don't build something maintainable, you fail. [3] This does not mean bug-free! But it means that the amount and severity of the bugs do not destroy the usefulness of the software.

yangikan 1y ago

The high salaries commanded by FAANG engineers right out of college motivated a lot of students to take up computer science as a major and this led to a massive oversupply. It might take a few years to cool. https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/careers/computer-science-majors-job-market-7ad443bf?st=yt57fymr3344bng&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/careers/computer-science-major... "Between 2018 and 2023, the number of students majoring in computer and information science jumped from about 444,000 to 628,000." Around 40% of MIT graduates are now in CS https://alum.mit.edu/slice/conversation-new-computing-dean-alumnus-daniel-huttenlocher https://alum.mit.edu/slice/conversation-new-computing-dean-a... Further, COVID has reduced a lot of friction for remote work, so now there is also global competition for these jobs.

laidoffamazon 1y ago
MIT graduates are not going to be struggling for anything, much less for new grad jobs. They're among the most privileged humans to exist on earth by nature of their degree and admission.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- HPsquared 1y ago
  Corollary: if MIT graduates are struggling to find jobs, the market conditions must be really bad for graduates.
  - laidoffamazon 1y ago
    I challenge the premise. They’re doing fine. They’re getting $600k a year to work at OpenAI and HRT
    - Kye 1y ago
      Or working at cable companies watching for alien timing signals.

red_rech 1y ago

I’m still desperately looking for an out from this industry. The layoff and market conditions helped me realized just how useless my career has been. I knew I never wanted to work professionally in software, but it was the only thing accessible that pays well. Even now it’s the only thing keeping me afloat, so I don’t see any way out but slow painful [career] death.

HPsquared 1y ago
I'd do software (or other engineering work) even if I was paid the same as a cashier. It's just enjoyable work. Horses for courses.
- seneca 1y ago
  Agreed. I think we're a shrinking group though. Many got into this profession for high pay and easy work, which is understandable, but not that the shine has worn off they're regretting the choice. Those of us who enjoy the work will remain, but we shouldn't be glad to see the change.
- red_rech 1y ago
  I like software, just not in any capacity anyone would pay me to work
tarwich 1y ago
I feel you. I don't hate computers, but the insecurity of late is unsettling.
Balgair 1y ago
Come to Biotech! We desperately need programmers with any sort of skills. The pay is not as good, but the companies are more stable (generally) and the benefits are fine. Mostly remote work for programming. You'll have to deal with bio people too. Family friendly.
- ponector 1y ago
  >> We desperately need programmers with any sort of skills I doubt you are hiring people without education degree in biology.

HPsquared 1y ago

Engineering and construction type careers in general, anything involving "capital investment", are very sensitive to market conditions. That is, future expectations. Very boom and bust, dependent on credit.

strict9 1y ago

Tech employers are saying it's efficiencies gained in AI that led to layoffs for the past few years. Yet they have increased headcount in engineering offices in other countries at the same time. This is also happening at small and midsize companies that ship software. It's easy to find this information, particularly for the largest companies like Amazon, Microsoft, and Google. Like the article states, there are a number of confounding factors. But it's not AI, no matter how much founders and CEOs want it to be true. It's the pursuit of lower cost employees.

jewelry 1y ago
That’s because the globally talent works much longer hours at lower salary while in US you have to pay 100k for each h1b. Let’s get rid of the ridiculous administration first and then talk about greedy ceo.
- seneca 1y ago
  Having foreign workers filling the jobs for American companies working on US soil and sending the money home is no better for Americans than having them working in their own countries. Say what you will about this administration, God knows they have flaws. However, they're the only one that has taken steps to actually attempt to help American workers in a generation or more. Every other one has been a revolving door of shipping jobs out or importing cheap foreign labor in.
  - ponector 1y ago
    >>sending the money home is no better for Americans than having them working in their own countries I'm sure they are spending majority of their income locally, the same way as American citizens: buying chinese goods and mexican food. Us government is losing tons of taxes if H1B immigrant is replaced with overseas worker.
- aleph_minus_one 1y ago
  > while in US you have to pay 100k for each h1b. This is rather evidence that this requirement (at least sometimes) does what it should do: it disincentivizes US branches of companies to hire foreigners in the USA by making such hires more expensive. Thus, instead foreign branches of US companies hire foreigners. Why the complaints: now in the USA less foreigners get hired instead of US citizens, exactly what was requested.

stronglikedan 1y ago

These types of headlines should always end with "for those who cannot or will not move." There's plenty of jobs - just not always in the most popular areas.

ponector 1y ago
Would you like to move to Bangalore? For local salary, of course!

phkahler 1y ago

Maybe the internet is complete. Programming was not that big until the internet came along. Writers started writing for web sites, some of them even started learning to code. Huge hoards of people were needed to "build the internet" as we know it today. That process has IMHO been stabilizing for a while now. Every local restaurant has a web site of some sort - some even have an event calendar that is updated regularly. It's not just Google and Amazon, the electronic version of the entire world has been built out. Payment systems are in place - even hobbyists or crafters can take payments online. It took 30 years with countless dead ends and restarts in a number of areas, but we finally have a stable functioning internet with common development tools and practices. Maintenance of this thing is going to take fewer resources than building it took. It kinda makes sense that jobs are getting harder to find. I've been working in product development and embedded software most of this time, and I don't see too much change.

sltr 1y ago
The internet != all software jobs. I don't think the internet can be complete anymore than an economy can be complete, but sectors can be mature and/or commoditized. Software is definitely not mature, but AI makes people think it is commoditized (it's not). It's probably more cyclic than systemic and related to the larger economic trends, federal monetary policy, and growing protectionism. But tech is outsized in the economy, so I'm not sure which one is the horse and which is the cart.
- Gud 1y ago
  No, but the core software may very will be written.

ModernMech 1y ago

I'm a CS professor and this is not really what we are seeing. I'm not at Berkeley but it's an R1. Yes, students on the lower end of the GPA scale are having a harder time finding jobs. But in terms of my program's ability to place students after graduating, the vast majority have been placed. It's important to also note that some who have not found a place did so because the thought they could find a better salary by holding out for longer. So yes, probably average post-grad offer is going down, that's true. But it's definitely not true to say "everybody is struggling to get jobs"

joquarky 1y ago
> But it's definitely not true to say "everybody is struggling to get jobs" Most people don't speak or write literally about this kind of subject.
- ModernMech 1y ago
  We see the evidence in the article of "everybody struggling" is: -Berkeley students haven't gotten as many internship offers and their salaries are not exceedingly high (but they are still getting offers). - He claims his son is struggling. I dunno, maybe he is right but this doesn't sound exactly like Armageddon. Also this: "it's going to be a great career. It is future-proof — that changed in four years" Huh? How is it not still a great career? Just because Berkeley grads can't get insane salaries right out of college? Also, how was is ever future proof -- I've been constantly retraining on technologies for 30 years. This article is just soundbites, nothing to see here.