8 ms·

F-droid has been stellar in steering the alternative app store environment over the past 15 years or so, and I'd heed their call on this. A small call to any g

F-droid has been stellar in steering the alternative app store environment over the past 15 years or so, and I'd heed their call on this. A small call to any googler on the thread - put your support towards this internally. I understand the internal dynamics, and it may seem current option is best amongst imperfect choices, but in this case F-droid is right in that closing out anonymous (but good) software is a line crossed with peril for any open ecosystem. Today it's play store, tomorrow it will be the web, and that will have a significant negative impact on Google.

cft 1y ago
"Best among the imperfect choices"? What's wrong about the current situation? Why imperfect? I have had Android phones starting from G1, and never had any problems with them, that I could install any APK that I wished on my own hardware. There's nothing imperfect for me, as a user. What's "imperfect" is that there are apps like ReVanced and PipePipe that deprive Google of the advertising revenue. But that's imperfect for Google, and perfect for the user. Just charge me 30 bucks for Android OS instead.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- kragen 1y ago
  Spreadsheets are a fundamentally important tool—the original "killer app" for personal computers such as cellphones, and the best way that has been found so far to put computational power in the hands of end-users. Last I checked, there was no spreadsheet in F-Droid, largely because it's a relatively small ecosystem, and most Android users still aren't using F-Droid. Instead they are subjected to the outrageously abusive apps that fill the Play Store, as described for example in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45411897 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45411897. And many Android phones ship with non-uninstallable malware and shovelware. Backing up an Android phone without a Google account—indeed, even activating an Android phone without a Goolge account—is challenging. From my point of view, these are imperfections.
  - styanax 1y ago
    > Spreadsheets are a fundamentally important tool—the original "killer app" for personal computers such as cellphones I do not agree with your supposition. Like the parent using the G1 as I did (and still have it), never used a spreadsheet app on any of my many, many phones both personal and work. I am/was a systems engineer by trade. > Last I checked, there was no spreadsheet in F-Droid The most popular viewer is the LibreOffice one[1], which can handle ODS and XLS (amongst many others) formats. You may have meant editing/creating which I agree they're not around. See item (1) above though. > largely because it's a relatively small ecosystem, and most Android users still aren't using F-Droid Or possibly, a large number of users simply do not need or use generic spreadsheet apps on their mobile devices, which is why I disagree with your opening statement as I am a direct counterexample. [1] https://f-droid.org/en/packages/at.tomtasche.reader/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/at.tomtasche.reader/
    - technothrasher 1y ago
      I think they just got carried away with the term "personal computers such as cellphones". I believe they were referencing the common recognition of VisiCalc as one of the first "killer apps" for personal computers.
      - kragen 1y ago
        I'm sorry my comment was so unclear. I'll try to explain in more detail. 1. Cellphones are a kind of personal computer. 2. Numerical computation is something that computers, personal or otherwise, are very good at. Conservatively, your cellphone is ten orders of magnitude faster (ten billion times faster) than you are at tasks like averaging a set of numbers. 3. The spreadsheet user interface is expressive enough for many numerical computations† that are impractical to carry out with more limited user interfaces such as pocket calculators, but it is simple enough to understand that large masses of people can take advantage of that expressivity. (The popularity of VisiCalc on early personal computers such as the Apple ][ is one piece of evidence for this.) It is the "low-code development platform" that inspired all the current no-code and low-code platforms. 4. Such numerical computations are so commonplace in many people's lives that they do them on their cellphones, despite the small display and lack of a keyboard; one reason is that many people have cellphones as their only programmable computers. When they do such complex numerical calculations on their cellphones, they often use spreadsheets to do them. 5. Therefore, we should regard the availability of spreadsheets as a central indicator for the viability of a computer software ecosystem, even on cellphones. I think all of these claims are obviously correct, stipulating the ones before them, except for #4. As evidence for #4, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCpJ441g-Y4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCpJ441g-Y4 shows that the Google Sheets app for Android was at the time #7 in their "productivity" category with 793000 ratings and 4.8 stars. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.docs.editors.sheets&hl=es_AR https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.and... says that it has been downloaded more than a billion times and has 1.27 million ratings. The fact that people exist who do not use their cellphones for spreadsheets does not constitute evidence against this claim. What I believe is happening, to elaborate a bit more, is that F-Droid users who need numerical computation that goes beyond what calculator apps can do are mostly just using the Google Sheets app. The radical fringe of F-Droid users like me who do not have Google accounts often make do with Termux programs such as Python, LuaJIT, PARI/GP, bc, Racket, or the C compiler, even though for many purposes a spreadsheet would be much more convenient. ______ † Spreadsheets are also used as simple databases, in fact more frequently than they are used for numerical calculations, but numerical calculations alone are a strong enough argument for my purposes here, and F-Droid does have a number of adequate simple database apps.
- crabbone 1y ago
  Oh, you opened a can of worms... In terms of user experience Android is garbage. It forces on you features you cannot remove unless you break into the system (which is kinda illegal or, at a minimum, voids your warranty). Stuff like "do not disturb" that turns on accidentally and makes me miss calls, and is impossible to remove. It's impossible to remove a bunch of trash from the lock screen, and with some workarounds sometimes only the picture is removed, but it stays interactive or affects other widgets, like the audio player, for instance. Lockscreen randomly trying to dial random numbers, especially if I don't answer an incoming call. Also, taking screenshots randomly, so after almost every run I have to spend some time deleting these screenshots. Now, when it comes to the subject in OP, it's not really about Android, it's about Google's policies around developers and app store. The whole idea behind Android is very similar to MS Windows: oppress the user because the system provider "knows better". Make choices on user's behalf, prevent users doing from useful things jut to blanket "secure" them from some imaginary threat. Manipulate users into doing a thing that's harmful for them, but beneficial for the system provider. So, the app store managed by Google is one example of such policies. Google doesn't have the best interest of the user in mind. They are maliciously complying with regulations that want them not to abuse their users. They check the applications submitted to the app store, but they check them for the wrong things. Just to say they did. I ended up using an FTP server app from F-Droid and a file manager from F-Droid because the stuff that was available for the same functionality found in app store is some atrocious predatory trash. It doesn't matter if I can afford to buy an app. Whatever I tried was just garbage. Once you get used to freedom and the approach of free software after you've spent some time with eg. Linux, using Android will make your blood boil because of how hostile both the system and the programs written for it are.
- jowea 1y ago
  A bit of devil's advocate here but the current situation is that there's sideloadable malware around.
  - g-b-r 1y ago
    As well as malware, and millions of apps that will syphon every data they possibly can, on the Play Store
poisonborz 1y ago
"A small call to any Googler" Do you think any single one remained who cares over their payment, stock options, office perks? They care about not getting laid off with the next wave.
- anilgulecha 1y ago
  The context is I've worked at Google, and internally was surrounded by many who do care. I also saw other sides of controversial calls - business and other considerations which are not apparent publicly. But one thing Google does well internally way more than others is listen to it's engineers' opinion.
  - neilv 1y ago
    I'm curious when this was, if you don't mind saying. (I have a small hobby of trying to figure out Google culture over the years.)
- planetafro 1y ago
  ...and fatalistic attitudes like this are what erode our freedoms imo. if we don't try, then what?
  - squigz 1y ago
    Then we post on the Internet about how doomed we all are. Keep up!
- IX-103 1y ago
  They still exist, I know a few. Most of them are busy protesting Google taking over Microsoft's contract to provide surveillance and targeting information in Gaza, but I can ask about this issue.
- snerbles 1y ago
  Like any other large corporation, Google has selected for compliant employees over all else. It's more akin to a bureaucracy than a startup now.
rlpb 1y ago
> closing out anonymous (but good) software I don’t think we should be framing their new rules like this. They are closing out F-Droid, which is not anonymous, due to a technicality of their implementation. At best, they are collateral damage. At worst, it is malicious compliance in response to a directive that was supposed to ensure their continued existence.
- anilgulecha 1y ago
  It's f-droid that's clearly calling this out. from the post: >The F-Droid project cannot require that developers register their apps through Google, but at the same time, we cannot “take over” the application identifiers for the open-source apps we distribute, as that would effectively seize exclusive distribution rights to those applications F-droid does not want to take responsibility for the app.
  - rlpb 1y ago
    > F-droid does not want to take responsibility for the app. That's not how I read it. They cannot "take over" exclusive control of application identifiers, that's all. For example, this would prevent a developer publishing the same app to both F-Droid and to the Google Play Store. I see nothing that says that they aren't willing to take responsibility for what they publish.
    - anilgulecha 1y ago
      What is meant by responsibility? If something happens because of the app - you go to the responsible person. F-droid does not want to be the outreach person/org for any issue on an app. But per Google policy - they will go to the f-droid if a govt request came in for that apk, as that's what the new policy would have on file. This is hence what f-droid is voicing concern on.
      - rlpb 1y ago
        Unless you speak for F-Droid, I think you're reading far too much into their statement that isn't there.
marcprux 1y ago
> A small call to any googler on the thread - put your support towards this internally. Post author here. This. Google toyed with a scheme like this a few years ago and reached out to F-Droid, and they were told the chaos it would cause. They backed off. This time, no one has deigned to contact us. Anyone who wants to talk can reach out to us (board@f-droid.org) or me directly (Signal contact in my profile).
- archon810 1y ago
  I pinged Sameer Samat for you, hope he will reach out. https://x.com/ArtemR/status/1973050998424784953 https://x.com/ArtemR/status/1973050998424784953
- archon810 1y ago
  https://x.com/ssamat/status/1973223167473885451 https://x.com/ssamat/status/1973223167473885451
  - anilgulecha 1y ago
    !! Happy this was setup. Fingers crossed.

cft 1y ago

"Best among the imperfect choices"? What's wrong about the current situation? Why imperfect? I have had Android phones starting from G1, and never had any problems with them, that I could install any APK that I wished on my own hardware. There's nothing imperfect for me, as a user. What's "imperfect" is that there are apps like ReVanced and PipePipe that deprive Google of the advertising revenue. But that's imperfect for Google, and perfect for the user. Just charge me 30 bucks for Android OS instead.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
kragen 1y ago
Spreadsheets are a fundamentally important tool—the original "killer app" for personal computers such as cellphones, and the best way that has been found so far to put computational power in the hands of end-users. Last I checked, there was no spreadsheet in F-Droid, largely because it's a relatively small ecosystem, and most Android users still aren't using F-Droid. Instead they are subjected to the outrageously abusive apps that fill the Play Store, as described for example in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45411897 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45411897. And many Android phones ship with non-uninstallable malware and shovelware. Backing up an Android phone without a Google account—indeed, even activating an Android phone without a Goolge account—is challenging. From my point of view, these are imperfections.
- styanax 1y ago
  > Spreadsheets are a fundamentally important tool—the original "killer app" for personal computers such as cellphones I do not agree with your supposition. Like the parent using the G1 as I did (and still have it), never used a spreadsheet app on any of my many, many phones both personal and work. I am/was a systems engineer by trade. > Last I checked, there was no spreadsheet in F-Droid The most popular viewer is the LibreOffice one[1], which can handle ODS and XLS (amongst many others) formats. You may have meant editing/creating which I agree they're not around. See item (1) above though. > largely because it's a relatively small ecosystem, and most Android users still aren't using F-Droid Or possibly, a large number of users simply do not need or use generic spreadsheet apps on their mobile devices, which is why I disagree with your opening statement as I am a direct counterexample. [1] https://f-droid.org/en/packages/at.tomtasche.reader/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/at.tomtasche.reader/
  - technothrasher 1y ago
    I think they just got carried away with the term "personal computers such as cellphones". I believe they were referencing the common recognition of VisiCalc as one of the first "killer apps" for personal computers.
    - kragen 1y ago
      I'm sorry my comment was so unclear. I'll try to explain in more detail. 1. Cellphones are a kind of personal computer. 2. Numerical computation is something that computers, personal or otherwise, are very good at. Conservatively, your cellphone is ten orders of magnitude faster (ten billion times faster) than you are at tasks like averaging a set of numbers. 3. The spreadsheet user interface is expressive enough for many numerical computations† that are impractical to carry out with more limited user interfaces such as pocket calculators, but it is simple enough to understand that large masses of people can take advantage of that expressivity. (The popularity of VisiCalc on early personal computers such as the Apple ][ is one piece of evidence for this.) It is the "low-code development platform" that inspired all the current no-code and low-code platforms. 4. Such numerical computations are so commonplace in many people's lives that they do them on their cellphones, despite the small display and lack of a keyboard; one reason is that many people have cellphones as their only programmable computers. When they do such complex numerical calculations on their cellphones, they often use spreadsheets to do them. 5. Therefore, we should regard the availability of spreadsheets as a central indicator for the viability of a computer software ecosystem, even on cellphones. I think all of these claims are obviously correct, stipulating the ones before them, except for #4. As evidence for #4, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCpJ441g-Y4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCpJ441g-Y4 shows that the Google Sheets app for Android was at the time #7 in their "productivity" category with 793000 ratings and 4.8 stars. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.docs.editors.sheets&hl=es_AR https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.and... says that it has been downloaded more than a billion times and has 1.27 million ratings. The fact that people exist who do not use their cellphones for spreadsheets does not constitute evidence against this claim. What I believe is happening, to elaborate a bit more, is that F-Droid users who need numerical computation that goes beyond what calculator apps can do are mostly just using the Google Sheets app. The radical fringe of F-Droid users like me who do not have Google accounts often make do with Termux programs such as Python, LuaJIT, PARI/GP, bc, Racket, or the C compiler, even though for many purposes a spreadsheet would be much more convenient. ______ † Spreadsheets are also used as simple databases, in fact more frequently than they are used for numerical calculations, but numerical calculations alone are a strong enough argument for my purposes here, and F-Droid does have a number of adequate simple database apps.
crabbone 1y ago
Oh, you opened a can of worms... In terms of user experience Android is garbage. It forces on you features you cannot remove unless you break into the system (which is kinda illegal or, at a minimum, voids your warranty). Stuff like "do not disturb" that turns on accidentally and makes me miss calls, and is impossible to remove. It's impossible to remove a bunch of trash from the lock screen, and with some workarounds sometimes only the picture is removed, but it stays interactive or affects other widgets, like the audio player, for instance. Lockscreen randomly trying to dial random numbers, especially if I don't answer an incoming call. Also, taking screenshots randomly, so after almost every run I have to spend some time deleting these screenshots. Now, when it comes to the subject in OP, it's not really about Android, it's about Google's policies around developers and app store. The whole idea behind Android is very similar to MS Windows: oppress the user because the system provider "knows better". Make choices on user's behalf, prevent users doing from useful things jut to blanket "secure" them from some imaginary threat. Manipulate users into doing a thing that's harmful for them, but beneficial for the system provider. So, the app store managed by Google is one example of such policies. Google doesn't have the best interest of the user in mind. They are maliciously complying with regulations that want them not to abuse their users. They check the applications submitted to the app store, but they check them for the wrong things. Just to say they did. I ended up using an FTP server app from F-Droid and a file manager from F-Droid because the stuff that was available for the same functionality found in app store is some atrocious predatory trash. It doesn't matter if I can afford to buy an app. Whatever I tried was just garbage. Once you get used to freedom and the approach of free software after you've spent some time with eg. Linux, using Android will make your blood boil because of how hostile both the system and the programs written for it are.
jowea 1y ago
A bit of devil's advocate here but the current situation is that there's sideloadable malware around.
- g-b-r 1y ago
  As well as malware, and millions of apps that will syphon every data they possibly can, on the Play Store

poisonborz 1y ago

"A small call to any Googler" Do you think any single one remained who cares over their payment, stock options, office perks? They care about not getting laid off with the next wave.

anilgulecha 1y ago
The context is I've worked at Google, and internally was surrounded by many who do care. I also saw other sides of controversial calls - business and other considerations which are not apparent publicly. But one thing Google does well internally way more than others is listen to it's engineers' opinion.
- neilv 1y ago
  I'm curious when this was, if you don't mind saying. (I have a small hobby of trying to figure out Google culture over the years.)
planetafro 1y ago
...and fatalistic attitudes like this are what erode our freedoms imo. if we don't try, then what?
- squigz 1y ago
  Then we post on the Internet about how doomed we all are. Keep up!
IX-103 1y ago
They still exist, I know a few. Most of them are busy protesting Google taking over Microsoft's contract to provide surveillance and targeting information in Gaza, but I can ask about this issue.
snerbles 1y ago
Like any other large corporation, Google has selected for compliant employees over all else. It's more akin to a bureaucracy than a startup now.

rlpb 1y ago

> closing out anonymous (but good) software I don’t think we should be framing their new rules like this. They are closing out F-Droid, which is not anonymous, due to a technicality of their implementation. At best, they are collateral damage. At worst, it is malicious compliance in response to a directive that was supposed to ensure their continued existence.

anilgulecha 1y ago
It's f-droid that's clearly calling this out. from the post: >The F-Droid project cannot require that developers register their apps through Google, but at the same time, we cannot “take over” the application identifiers for the open-source apps we distribute, as that would effectively seize exclusive distribution rights to those applications F-droid does not want to take responsibility for the app.
- rlpb 1y ago
  > F-droid does not want to take responsibility for the app. That's not how I read it. They cannot "take over" exclusive control of application identifiers, that's all. For example, this would prevent a developer publishing the same app to both F-Droid and to the Google Play Store. I see nothing that says that they aren't willing to take responsibility for what they publish.
  - anilgulecha 1y ago
    What is meant by responsibility? If something happens because of the app - you go to the responsible person. F-droid does not want to be the outreach person/org for any issue on an app. But per Google policy - they will go to the f-droid if a govt request came in for that apk, as that's what the new policy would have on file. This is hence what f-droid is voicing concern on.
    - rlpb 1y ago
      Unless you speak for F-Droid, I think you're reading far too much into their statement that isn't there.

marcprux 1y ago

> A small call to any googler on the thread - put your support towards this internally. Post author here. This. Google toyed with a scheme like this a few years ago and reached out to F-Droid, and they were told the chaos it would cause. They backed off. This time, no one has deigned to contact us. Anyone who wants to talk can reach out to us (board@f-droid.org) or me directly (Signal contact in my profile).

archon810 1y ago
I pinged Sameer Samat for you, hope he will reach out. https://x.com/ArtemR/status/1973050998424784953 https://x.com/ArtemR/status/1973050998424784953
archon810 1y ago
https://x.com/ssamat/status/1973223167473885451 https://x.com/ssamat/status/1973223167473885451
- anilgulecha 1y ago
  !! Happy this was setup. Fingers crossed.