5 ms·

A lot of comments are assuming this is just heat. This is specifically not thermal (blackbody) radiation, which is negligible at the visible frequency range fo

A lot of comments are assuming this is just heat. This is specifically not thermal (blackbody) radiation, which is negligible at the visible frequency range for mice at these temperatures. The researchers find a difference in visible wavelength emission between living and dead mice at the same temperature This point is addressed on page 2 of the paper, accessible on bioarxiv: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.11.08.622743v1 https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.11.08.622743v1

jvanderbot 1y ago
Specifically from paper: The live/dead mice (and container) were all held at 37C, which google tells me is a normal mouse body temp. And, the observed light does not match the spectrum of black body radiation expected for the temps at which images were taken or subjects were held. Also strange: The effect changed w/ injury or anesthetic treatment according to the abstract.
- api 1y ago
  If we had good enough sensors could we use this for screening or diagnostics? “Aura scanners” has an appropriately cyberpunk feel.
  - XorNot 1y ago
    From the abstract the answer basically seems to be yes, and that's how they're pitching it. They note increased emissions due to injury, which would be consistent with repair activities increasing the general intensity of chemistry happening to facilitate repair at wound sites.
- Fanofilm 1y ago
  Research is finding MicroTubules in the brain likely are the LINK (quantum entanglement) to where Consciousness "lives" (is located). Note that the Microtubules link STOPs while under Anesthesia. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=microtubules+consciousness https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=microtubules+co...
  - Y_Y 1y ago
    Your idiosyncratic use of capital letters only adds to my skepticism.
    - noir_lord 1y ago
      First video when I hit that YouTube link was Joe Rogan. Skeptic meter caught fire before I could get a reading.
      - codr7 1y ago
        This is such a weird way to navigate life. Joe Rogan has interviewed plenty of people, different people that have very little in common, just because some of them have controversial views that make you nervous that doesn't mean all the information is useless.
        afthonos 1y ago
        We are constantly bombarded by links to information. It is reasonable to make snap judgments about the quality of the information based on who is providing it. If I’m looking for accurate, factual information on a topic that is clearly prone to magical thinking, a provider whose reputation is to listen to anyone, including people who very much engage in magical thinking, is actually a very bad source. Because they will not filter on anything beyond “is this neat to listen to.”
        Starman_Jones 1y ago
        You are correct. However, Joe Rogan should not be the first stop for assessing the scientific plausibility of a new idea. If that is where someone is sending you, that can- and should- be a red flag.
        freejazz 1y ago
        I don't think it's the controversy of his guests so much as many of their unqualified ramblings that get treated as expertise. It's really obnoxious that it all gets put into political controversy when it's just often facially stupid BS.
- griffzhowl 1y ago
  Specific electrochemical processes have their own characteristic photon emissions. Since there are some processes that occur distinctively in living organisms (e.g. to do with metabolism), it was previously thought that these would have characteristic photon emissions, but as far as I know these are the first observations of this kind of thing. The effect changing with injury or anaesthetic I guess reflects the fact that there are different electrochemical processes occurring in these cases that have detectable differences in the photon emissions
  - roughly 1y ago
    I seem to recall the mechanism for anesthetics being something like temporarily depolarizing the mitochondrial walls to shut down ATP synthesis, so that might point towards where the effect is originating.
    - pfdietz 1y ago
      That would be lethal. Instead, they affect cell membranes of nerve cells.
      - roughly 1y ago
        Ah, thank you, I was misremembering. That sounds more feasible.
lucozade 1y ago
Sure but, in fairness, the HN title is a bit misleading. The paper says that the bodies are emitting light in the visible part of the EM spectrum not that the light is visible. And the intensity isn't really high enough to see the light without instruments.
- griffzhowl 1y ago
  True, there's an ambiguity in "visible light" between "EM radiation within the visible frequency range" and "EM radiation within the visible frequency range which is of sufficient intensity that we can detect it with our eyes" But this is independent of the misconception that the radiation observed in this experiment is thermal. Thermal radiation in the visible range at this temperature is much lower in intensity than the biological radiation observed here, but both kinds of radiation are well below the intensity that we can see with our eyes.
- freejazz 1y ago
  Sure, what isn't fair about debating the headline in the comments without reading the article?
veunes 1y ago
The fact that they're seeing visible photon differences between live and dead tissue at the same temperature suggests it's tied to metabolic or biochemical activity, not just thermal noise
- griffzhowl 1y ago
  Yes, exactly. I should have added that this result wasn't unexpected or mysterious as it might sound, because it's known from physics that different chemical processes have characteristic photon emissions. Since it's known that different chemical processes occur in living and dead organisms, it was expected that there would be differing emissions in the two cases. As far as I know this research is the first actual detection of these differences
  - cogman10 1y ago
    I believe there's an example of something similar happening when fertilization of an egg occurs. There's a zinc reaction which creates "flash" of visible light. Animals (and plants? Bio 101 was a long time ago) use ATP for a lot of their metabolism and phosphates are pretty well known for emitting light as they react.
    - griffzhowl 1y ago
      That sounds cool. I was able to find this press release about a "zinc explosion" that's been documented in human fertilization https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2016/04/radiant-zinc-fireworks-reveal-quality-of-human-egg https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2016/04/radiant-zinc-f... I didn't yet have the patience to go through the original research papers to see what the manner of detection was (I've had a couple of drinks this evening), but the phrasing of zinc "sparks" suggests emitted photons. On the other hand, the fact they're talking about zinc rather than photons suggets they're talking about detecting ion transfer rather than photon emission

jvanderbot 1y ago

Specifically from paper: The live/dead mice (and container) were all held at 37C, which google tells me is a normal mouse body temp. And, the observed light does not match the spectrum of black body radiation expected for the temps at which images were taken or subjects were held. Also strange: The effect changed w/ injury or anesthetic treatment according to the abstract.

api 1y ago
If we had good enough sensors could we use this for screening or diagnostics? “Aura scanners” has an appropriately cyberpunk feel.
- XorNot 1y ago
  From the abstract the answer basically seems to be yes, and that's how they're pitching it. They note increased emissions due to injury, which would be consistent with repair activities increasing the general intensity of chemistry happening to facilitate repair at wound sites.
Fanofilm 1y ago
Research is finding MicroTubules in the brain likely are the LINK (quantum entanglement) to where Consciousness "lives" (is located). Note that the Microtubules link STOPs while under Anesthesia. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=microtubules+consciousness https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=microtubules+co...
- Y_Y 1y ago
  Your idiosyncratic use of capital letters only adds to my skepticism.
  - noir_lord 1y ago
    First video when I hit that YouTube link was Joe Rogan. Skeptic meter caught fire before I could get a reading.
    - codr7 1y ago
      This is such a weird way to navigate life. Joe Rogan has interviewed plenty of people, different people that have very little in common, just because some of them have controversial views that make you nervous that doesn't mean all the information is useless.
      - afthonos 1y ago
        We are constantly bombarded by links to information. It is reasonable to make snap judgments about the quality of the information based on who is providing it. If I’m looking for accurate, factual information on a topic that is clearly prone to magical thinking, a provider whose reputation is to listen to anyone, including people who very much engage in magical thinking, is actually a very bad source. Because they will not filter on anything beyond “is this neat to listen to.”
      - Starman_Jones 1y ago
        You are correct. However, Joe Rogan should not be the first stop for assessing the scientific plausibility of a new idea. If that is where someone is sending you, that can- and should- be a red flag.
      - freejazz 1y ago
        I don't think it's the controversy of his guests so much as many of their unqualified ramblings that get treated as expertise. It's really obnoxious that it all gets put into political controversy when it's just often facially stupid BS.
griffzhowl 1y ago
Specific electrochemical processes have their own characteristic photon emissions. Since there are some processes that occur distinctively in living organisms (e.g. to do with metabolism), it was previously thought that these would have characteristic photon emissions, but as far as I know these are the first observations of this kind of thing. The effect changing with injury or anaesthetic I guess reflects the fact that there are different electrochemical processes occurring in these cases that have detectable differences in the photon emissions
- roughly 1y ago
  I seem to recall the mechanism for anesthetics being something like temporarily depolarizing the mitochondrial walls to shut down ATP synthesis, so that might point towards where the effect is originating.
  - pfdietz 1y ago
    That would be lethal. Instead, they affect cell membranes of nerve cells.
    - roughly 1y ago
      Ah, thank you, I was misremembering. That sounds more feasible.

lucozade 1y ago

Sure but, in fairness, the HN title is a bit misleading. The paper says that the bodies are emitting light in the visible part of the EM spectrum not that the light is visible. And the intensity isn't really high enough to see the light without instruments.

griffzhowl 1y ago
True, there's an ambiguity in "visible light" between "EM radiation within the visible frequency range" and "EM radiation within the visible frequency range which is of sufficient intensity that we can detect it with our eyes" But this is independent of the misconception that the radiation observed in this experiment is thermal. Thermal radiation in the visible range at this temperature is much lower in intensity than the biological radiation observed here, but both kinds of radiation are well below the intensity that we can see with our eyes.
freejazz 1y ago
Sure, what isn't fair about debating the headline in the comments without reading the article?

veunes 1y ago

The fact that they're seeing visible photon differences between live and dead tissue at the same temperature suggests it's tied to metabolic or biochemical activity, not just thermal noise

griffzhowl 1y ago
Yes, exactly. I should have added that this result wasn't unexpected or mysterious as it might sound, because it's known from physics that different chemical processes have characteristic photon emissions. Since it's known that different chemical processes occur in living and dead organisms, it was expected that there would be differing emissions in the two cases. As far as I know this research is the first actual detection of these differences
- cogman10 1y ago
  I believe there's an example of something similar happening when fertilization of an egg occurs. There's a zinc reaction which creates "flash" of visible light. Animals (and plants? Bio 101 was a long time ago) use ATP for a lot of their metabolism and phosphates are pretty well known for emitting light as they react.
  - griffzhowl 1y ago
    That sounds cool. I was able to find this press release about a "zinc explosion" that's been documented in human fertilization https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2016/04/radiant-zinc-fireworks-reveal-quality-of-human-egg https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2016/04/radiant-zinc-f... I didn't yet have the patience to go through the original research papers to see what the manner of detection was (I've had a couple of drinks this evening), but the phrasing of zinc "sparks" suggests emitted photons. On the other hand, the fact they're talking about zinc rather than photons suggets they're talking about detecting ion transfer rather than photon emission