7 ms·
Too little and too late. Draconian measures are necessary to push automakers into compliance and to push consumers to buy. It's expensive unless we want to sell
by anovikov 1y ago
Too little and too late. Draconian measures are necessary to push automakers into compliance and to push consumers to buy. It's expensive unless we want to sell out to China completely, but necessary and in the end, affordable.
- aurareturn 1y agosell out to China completely Let China sell tens of billions of affordable EVs to Europe. Let Europe sell tens of billions of ASML EUV machines and Airbus planes to China. Sell what each region is best at. Mutual benefits. Crazy idea right?
- porridgeraisin 1y agoEUV machines are not europe's to sell. It's all american owned IP and the "EUV part" itself is american manufactured.
- pjc50 1y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding > ASML Holding N.V. (commonly shortened to ASML, originally standing for Advanced Semiconductor Materials Lithography) is a Dutch multinational corporation
- yostrovs 1y agoYou missed this part in the History section: "In 1997, ASML began studying a shift to using extreme ultraviolet and in 1999 joined a consortium, including Intel and two other U.S. chipmakers, in order to exploit fundamental research conducted by the US Department of Energy. Because the Cooperative Research and Development Agreement (CRADA) it operates under is funded by the US government, licensing must be approved by Congress."
- FirmwareBurner 1y agoASML just makes the steppers. The EUV secret sauce is made by Cymer in the US and uses US R&D licensed of Sandia Labs. US can always retract the EUV license and sell the Cymer light sources to Canon or Nikon if they wish. ASML has no EU golden goose of its own that's why it has to obey US rules and policies.
- lossolo 1y ago> US can always retract the EUV license and sell the Cymer light sources to Canon or Nikon if they wish Then why are they not doing it? Isn't it in the national interest? Why not create a US company that makes EUV machines like ASML does? Why is there only one company in the world capable of doing it if they are "just steppers"? btw what is used now in EUV machines are step and scan scanners and ASML builds the whole EUV scanner system (stages, metrology, controls, system integration). Scanners replaced steppers for leading edge nodes. Oh and Cymer is owned by ASML from 2013, so it’s ASML's own US light source business working with TRUMPF (Germany) for the CO2 drive lasers.
- blargthorwars 1y ago>Then why are they not doing it? Because ASMR is doing fine by keeping its stuff out of the hands of the Chinese Communist Party.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago>Why not create a US company that makes EUV machines like ASML does? They had a stepper manufacturer, Silicon Valley Group (SVG), and ASML bought it, that's how ASML got the EUV license from the US.
- lossolo 1y agoSVG didn’t hand ASML a magic EUV license. ASML bought SVG lithography two decades ago to expand in dry/immersion optical litho and US market access. EUV matured later. SVG had momentum in DUV and still couldn't sustain at 193nm while EUV is an order of magnitude more complex. ASML builds the whole scanner and owns the integration IP that makes the parts actually produce yield at scale. The light source matters but without ASML's stages, metrology, optics integration, contamination control, control software etc etc you've got a science project instead of a tool a fab can run. ASML won because the integration problem beat almost everyone else.
- porridgeraisin 1y agoJust read further into the history section of the same page, you don't have to be obtuse and post the full form of the company, everyone here knows this. The world is nuanced, and this is not reddit.
- prmoustache 1y agoThis is not relevant. With AI, US Big-Tech made sure to show the world that IP is not a thing anymore.
- FirmwareBurner 1y agoPeople are downvitng you even though you're right.
- porridgeraisin 1y agoIt's a classic
- lm28469 1y agoIt's always the same, free market when it goes my way, fuck you if it goes your way. In 50 years there will be literally nothing left that China doesn't do better than the west, it would be better to build trust and commerce now than attempt to delay it with artificial borders (tariffs, export bans, &c.), we're just delaying the inevitable and making a (commercial) enemy for no reason
- myrmidon 1y ago> In 50 years there will be literally nothing left that China doesn't do better than the west This is not at all obvious or inevitable. The exact same concerns where voiced when much of the electronics industry moved to Japan 30 years ago, but "Japan doing everything better than the west" never really happened. China is facing the exact same challenges that made US, EU, Japanese and Korean industry stumble before: Your own success raises wages and living standards, which inevitably decreases competitiveness. China still has a lot of catching up to do (in living standards/median income) and despite that it already struggles in some sectors to compete with countries like Vietnam or Indonesia.
- aurareturn 1y agoChina is facing the exact same challenges that made US, EU, Japanese and Korean industry stumble before: Your own success raises wages and living standards, which inevitably decreases competitiveness. China still has a lot of catching up to do (in living standards/median income) and despite that it already struggles in some sectors to compete with countries like Vietnam or Indonesia. And that's totally fine to Chinese people. They don't want to work in a factory forever. They too, would like cushy office jobs.
- Luker88 1y agoMore shortsighted than crazy, imho. EU tried that with Russia, then we were dependent on oil/gas, and somehow the dictatorial regime fscked us on Ukraine, and now all of us are wasting so much more time and money. Everybody already knows China is going to invade Taiwan. The global chip market is not going to like that, and this will happen only because we played the good guy with a dictator. And then all of this will be retroactively be seen as aiding and collaborating with evil, again. "Curse your sudden and inevitable betrayal", again and again.
- saubeidl 1y agoWhy does Europe need to care about Taiwan? Ukraine I get, it's a security concern for us. But some island far away with a tenuous independence claim?
- Luker88 1y agoAh, to be young and new here. TSMC (taiwan) is the only company that has reached the latest and greatest chips tech. Apple gets their chips from Taiwan only. AMD. Intel. Everyone. Taiwan does not let TSMC export the latest tech, exactly because they would lose USA protection. ...basically it's a 160B$ industry with something like 70% of the global output, as per last year data. Now imagine Taiwan blowing up the industry to prevent China from controlling it, or China destroying the industry to crash the global economy, weaken the USA protection and come back a few years later. China will not be affected much by the sudden non-existence of Taiwan Chip industry. They produce everything internally. The rest of the world would be thrown 5+ years back in terms of tech, and I don't even want to know how much it will take to ramp up older production elsewhere. Remember the problems caused by Covid, where the car industry had problems getting chips? That was a mere shift in who gets the chips first, the production was still there. 70% less global chip production? Buy a cars/computers/whatever as soon as China invades, it's going to last you for a while.
- saubeidl 1y agoThis still sounds like a problem caused by the US that should be for the US to worry about.
- constantcrying 1y ago>Let China sell tens of billions of affordable EVs to Europe. The German economy can not survive that. There is no "mutual benefit" when what you are doing is an existential risk to the other side.
- aurareturn 1y agoYea but French and Netherlands economy will be great. German car companies will get a kick in competition and make better cars. Consumers win.
- constantcrying 1y agoThe German car industry will not survive and Germany, together with the EU will go through a major economic crisis. That the Netherlands adds 500 jobs making EUV machines is a tiny consolation for mass unemployment in Germany, Italy, the Czech Republic, Hungary and France with millions of jobs lost. Again, free trade is an insane idea when the proposition of one side is an existential threat to the other side.
- aurareturn 1y agoSo close the market, shield yourself from competition, and forever make inferior cars? It goes both ways as well. German cars are already suffering in China as tariff retaliation.
- constantcrying 1y ago>So close the market, shield yourself from competition, and forever make inferior cars? Certainly the preferable alternative.
- ioteg 1y agoInto compliance? Compliance of what? Also why do you want draconian measures to push consumers to buy? Shouldn't you let consumers buy whenever they can afford to change their cars? What kind of draconian measures are you thinking of, emission regulations that make it impossible for poor people to drive their cars?
- anovikov 1y agoCertainly, to limit oil imports and consumption, we should ensure that poor people can't drive gas-powered cars.
- fidotron 1y agoIt's not at all clear why poor people should ever want to leave their allocated urban subdivision. We certainly don't want them clogging up tourist spots that should be kept for appreciation by sophisticated wealthy foreigners.
- ioteg 1y agoWhy should we limit oil imports and consumption?
- rmu09 1y agoWe don't want the CO2 that is created (and other consequences of oil production/consumption), the money can be spent on something better, and we don't want to depend on oil-exporting countries more than necessary.
- epolanski 1y agoI don't understand your narrative. We Europeans have sold tens of millions of cars in China for decades. The string attached was that you had to make a joint venture with a local company (which, by the way, shared the risks and increased the margins). Why can't they do so the same here? And I don't want to hear no "because Chinese EV industry got help by government, it's unfair", so what? In Italy alone we've given more than 200B euros to Fiat, which milks governments from Serbia to Poland out of taxpayer money. Tesla has received 16B+ in direct funding from taxpayers in US alone, got more in foreign countries to open plants there. European and American auto industries shouldn't rely on artificially gatekeeping foreign automakers. We've tried with Japan in the 80s forcing them to produce here, now it's China. I don't like any of this, it's against taxpayers, it's against consumers. Free market goes both ways.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago>Why can't they do so the same here? They .. ARE? Dacia Spring is essentially a Chinese EV from Renault's joint venture with eGT New Energy Automotive. VW's Cupra Tavascan is made in China and is the product of VW's joint venture with Anhui Jianghuai Automobile Group. And many EU EVs that are of domestic design and production use Chinese developed and manufactured powertrains and batteries. EU EVs are using more and more Chinese tech.
- epolanski 1y agoWas merely pointing out that I don't see anything wrong in it.
- pjc50 1y agoThe carrot will be much more well received than the stick. Price cap chargers and make sure they're everywhere, including kerbside. Convert public fleets. It's much more reasonable to mandate that local councils and public servant staff cars should be EV-only first; these tend to have short turnover periods of three to five years anyway. That forces the public bodies to actually address the details of adoption. Not to mention buses and public works vehicles like refuse lorries. Expensive, but if the transition has to happen it has to happen. But I think the momentum is there on its own: > In August alone, 154,582 EVs were snapped up, accounting for 20% of all new car sales. Analysts note that a 20–25% share is enough to meet the EU’s emissions targets for 2025–2027 and Europe has just reached that milestone. There's a self-reinforcing circle that as more people have EVs, they become more "normal", and the more car-centric policy caters to their needs. People who are irrationally scared speak to friends who own one or ride in EV taxis (actually, taxis are nearly always hybrids at the moment?)
- ioteg 1y agoNobody is "irrationally scared" of EVs. We are rationally scared that, once enough well-off people have switched to EVs, this market share will be used as an excuse to stop poor people from driving their petrol or diesel cars. ("Rationally" because this is already happening.)
- saubeidl 1y agoWhy would that be a bad thing?
- FirmwareBurner 1y agoSo fuck the poor people, according to you?
- saubeidl 1y ago[flagged]
- gmac 1y agoSome automakers are doing better than others. Renault has a range of well-reviewed EVs that aren't so far off the value of Chinese imports.
- waysa 1y ago> that aren't so far off the value of Chinese imports. That is with EU import tariffs of up to 45.3% on "non-cooperating companies" (such as SAIC Group aka "MG").
- ViewTrick1002 1y agoTo compensate for Chinese subsidies/state-aid tilting the market in the Chinese companies favor. It is not Trumpian completely insane tariffs applied without thought. It is a scalpel applied to ensure fair competition.
- constantcrying 1y agoHow do you want to push Automakers into compliance? Every single European Automaker is begging people to buy their EVs, yet the amount of buyers is no where near where regulators want them to be. What would you do to Automakers? Making cars in Europe is getting near impossible, "draconian" measures mean that indeed no European Automaker will make ICE cars any more, because they will all be bankrupt. The real problem regulators can't regulate away is that people are not buying EVs, even when manufacturers are selling them at prices where they barely break even.
- myrmidon 1y ago> the amount of buyers is no where near where regulators want them to be [...] The real problem regulators can't regulate away is that people are not buying EVs To quote the article: Analysts note that a 20–25% share is enough to meet the EU’s emissions targets for 2025–2027 and Europe has just reached that milestone.
- orwin 1y agoI think it really depends on car. A friend of mine bought a R5, it took 6 weeks to be delivered because of the backlog, so I guess: build better cars?
- constantcrying 1y agoSure and VW has recently announced their competitor car. This of course does not answer the question about which draconic measures the car industry should be subjected to. Additionally, long delays can be for other reasons than high demands.
- storus 1y agoElectric grid is incapable of 1:1 switching to EVs from gas/diesel vehicles. If you want to collapse economy, just enforce it with your draconian measures.
- ViewTrick1002 1y agoNot sure why this old talking points keeps being repeated? BEVs are like the best consumers imaginable for our grids. Their owners get hourly contracts and perfectly time their charging when the prices are low helping stabilize the grid. Some even grid companies even support adding cars charging to the ancillary markets further increasing grid reliability - while also paying the BEV owners for their service. Taking in the supply chain from producing oil, refining it and transporting it the change in electricity consumption is negigible because especially the refining step is quite electricity intensive. But if no refining happens in a market then something like a 20-30% increase in electricity usage is expected. Please do tell me how that entails a "collapse"?
- storus 1y agoBecause it's true. Most EU countries aren't built to have 100% EV. Not every country is Norway. Spanish or Czech grids collapse from hot weather already, how much worse would it be when you suddenly plug millions of vehicles? With 220V one would need 1-2 days to fully charge continuously to get to 100% depending on battery size; perfect timing is a wishful thinking, you'd get peak charging times as well. Speed chargers are very few and their price is now approaching gas prices already, and electric grid can't bear many of them anyway.
- ViewTrick1002 1y agoYou seem to be talking around the issue? Sprinkled with misinformation. Please do tell me when the Spanish and Czech grid collapsed due to "hot weather". Of course not at all engaging with the point about BEVs acting like demand response for a grid. Scheduling their charging to not add more load when the grid is already strained, unless forced to do so due to e.g. being on a roadtrip without possibility of timing the charging and therefore paying a premium for expensive electricity. All in all I see a lot of hand waving and little substance. Did you miss the portion where on average the refinement of raw crude to gasoline/diesel is neutral in terms of electricity usage compared to just driving a BEV?
- hopelite 1y agoWell I sure did not have EV totalitarianism on my bingo card. So all the European societies need to be forced and pushed with draconian measures and punishments, while racist excuses are made for why other groups are exempt from these climate punishments. It is textbook abusive guilt shifting of narcissism. It’s not like most politicians are not grandiose, especially the ones who not only think they are some form of special one’s chosen by God, but have even just effectively declared themselves to be the only God they need (i.e., some form of external regulation). Talk about peak grandiose narcissism, this time with robots and AI.