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Do lawyers and judges not by now have software that turns all these citations into hyperlinks into some relevant database? Software that would also flag a citat

by jerf 1y ago

Do lawyers and judges not by now have software that turns all these citations into hyperlinks into some relevant database? Software that would also flag a citation as not having a referent? Surely this exists and is expensive but in wide usage...? It's not a large step after that to verify that a quote actually exists in the cited document, though I can see how perhaps that was not something that was necessary up to this point. I have to think the window on this being even slightly viable is going to close quickly. When you ship something to a judge and their copy ends up festooned with "NO REFERENT" symbols it's not going to go well for you.

KittenInABox 1y ago
Part of an issue is that there's already in existence a lot of manual entry and a lot of small/regional courts with a lot of specificity for individual jurisdictions. Unification of standards is a long way away, I mean, tech hasn't even done it
freejazz 1y ago
>Do lawyers and judges not by now have software that turns all these citations into hyperlinks into some relevant database? Software that would also flag a citation as not having a referent? Surely this exists and is expensive but in wide usage...? Why would I pay for software what I could do with my own eyes in 2 minutes?
- Dylan16807 1y ago
  Two minutes per what? Two minutes per citation is a huge time waste. Two minutes per filing full of citations is unrealistically fast and also adds up.
  - freejazz 1y ago
    It's not two minutes per citation and the notion that something that is "very expensive" but otherwise doesn't have a use case unless you're using AI in the first place is a ridiculous proposition. To call what I wrote a "huge time waste" seems to really miss the point. The citations are already hyperlinks into "some relevant database". Attorneys figured that out when they started publishing judicial opinions in reporters (books). I take the citation string and it gives me the decision. Wow! > Two minutes per filing full of citations is unrealistically fast and also adds up Also adds up to what? The amount of time it takes to do your job? Vs not doing it and just letting AI rip? Oh I see, people here think that paying another service to fix the poor job the "do your job for you" AI service did makes sense? I don't think so. But then again I'm not the one wondering if lawyers keep cases stored in "relevant databases" out of what could only be sheer ignorance (I bet AI could get that one right). Never heard of Westlaw or LexisNexis?
    - Dylan16807 1y ago
      > The citations are already hyperlinks Then that's the actual answer to the question they were asking. It's already done before you're given the document. But I don't know what takes "2 minutes" then? Checking to make sure they actually have hyperlinks? > But then again I'm not the one wondering if lawyers keep cases stored in "relevant databases" out of what could only be sheer ignorance That is not what they asked. You only make yourself look bad when you change the question before mocking it. > otherwise doesn't have a use case unless you're using AI in the first place Their full post was describing something that has a use case if someone else is using AI. > The amount of time it takes to do your job? Vs not doing it and just letting AI rip? No, see previous.
      - freejazz 1y ago
        >Then that's the actual answer to the question they were asking. It's already done before you're given the document. It's not the actual answer. Having a standardized resource location scheme is a solved problem in the legal field for years beyond my knowledge. Well before computers, that's for sure. Getting all the resources cited in any legal brief is probably one of the most trivial task an attorney does, if not a paralegal, and I'm sure there are scripts and apps for it too. You just type the cite in and poof! Out comes the document! >But I don't know what takes "2 minutes" then? Checking to make sure they actually have hyperlinks? The task at question. Seeing if "hyperlink" returns a case the citation. It's even more trivial than getting the resource itself. You type it in and don't even have to click the download button. Of course, an attorney actually has to read a case to see if it stands for the proposition they are using it for. But you don't care about that because you're a super genius entertaining a hypothetical. >That is not what they asked. You only make yourself look bad when you change the question before mocking it. I'm not the one making myself look bad because I'm not the one entertaining the nonsensical hypothetical of some other internet super genius who knows so much about the legal profession that they've never heard of LexisNexis, WestLaw, the Federal Reporter or the Blue Book. Legal citations are already a format you can plug into a legal database to get a result, so the idea that it'd be some sort of improvement to see if a citation actually exists when your AI makes up complete bullshit isn't an advancement, it's back to the status quo. Because an attorney needs to actually read the cases they cite to be sure they stand for the proposition they are relying upon. They also need to read the propositions they are representing to the court. So nothing has changed about that. But again, you don't realize that because you have no idea what an attorney needs to do to make their time more valuable. (It's hiring and training junior attorneys.) That's what senior lawyers have been doing forever. Actual attorneys do the job way better job than AIs. That hasn't changed yet and it doesn't seem like it will anytime soon based upon the AI demos I've been given. The only people who tell me otherwise are posters like you and the hucksters that sell the demos. At least the others are hucksters. You're some poster whose going to argue with me about what will make my job easier, having no idea what I actually spend my time doing. It's always the posters that abstract it into some obtuse operation like "filling out a legal document with facts and relevant law" like they are just two buckets getting sorted. It's so tiresome.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
alansaber 1y ago
Lots of hallucination verification tools exist, but legal tech tools usually charge an arm and a leg. This bloke probably used gemini with the prompt "create law"

by jerf 1y ago

KittenInABox 1y ago

Part of an issue is that there's already in existence a lot of manual entry and a lot of small/regional courts with a lot of specificity for individual jurisdictions. Unification of standards is a long way away, I mean, tech hasn't even done it

freejazz 1y ago

>Do lawyers and judges not by now have software that turns all these citations into hyperlinks into some relevant database? Software that would also flag a citation as not having a referent? Surely this exists and is expensive but in wide usage...? Why would I pay for software what I could do with my own eyes in 2 minutes?

Dylan16807 1y ago
Two minutes per what? Two minutes per citation is a huge time waste. Two minutes per filing full of citations is unrealistically fast and also adds up.
- freejazz 1y ago
  It's not two minutes per citation and the notion that something that is "very expensive" but otherwise doesn't have a use case unless you're using AI in the first place is a ridiculous proposition. To call what I wrote a "huge time waste" seems to really miss the point. The citations are already hyperlinks into "some relevant database". Attorneys figured that out when they started publishing judicial opinions in reporters (books). I take the citation string and it gives me the decision. Wow! > Two minutes per filing full of citations is unrealistically fast and also adds up Also adds up to what? The amount of time it takes to do your job? Vs not doing it and just letting AI rip? Oh I see, people here think that paying another service to fix the poor job the "do your job for you" AI service did makes sense? I don't think so. But then again I'm not the one wondering if lawyers keep cases stored in "relevant databases" out of what could only be sheer ignorance (I bet AI could get that one right). Never heard of Westlaw or LexisNexis?
  - Dylan16807 1y ago
    > The citations are already hyperlinks Then that's the actual answer to the question they were asking. It's already done before you're given the document. But I don't know what takes "2 minutes" then? Checking to make sure they actually have hyperlinks? > But then again I'm not the one wondering if lawyers keep cases stored in "relevant databases" out of what could only be sheer ignorance That is not what they asked. You only make yourself look bad when you change the question before mocking it. > otherwise doesn't have a use case unless you're using AI in the first place Their full post was describing something that has a use case if someone else is using AI. > The amount of time it takes to do your job? Vs not doing it and just letting AI rip? No, see previous.
    - freejazz 1y ago
      >Then that's the actual answer to the question they were asking. It's already done before you're given the document. It's not the actual answer. Having a standardized resource location scheme is a solved problem in the legal field for years beyond my knowledge. Well before computers, that's for sure. Getting all the resources cited in any legal brief is probably one of the most trivial task an attorney does, if not a paralegal, and I'm sure there are scripts and apps for it too. You just type the cite in and poof! Out comes the document! >But I don't know what takes "2 minutes" then? Checking to make sure they actually have hyperlinks? The task at question. Seeing if "hyperlink" returns a case the citation. It's even more trivial than getting the resource itself. You type it in and don't even have to click the download button. Of course, an attorney actually has to read a case to see if it stands for the proposition they are using it for. But you don't care about that because you're a super genius entertaining a hypothetical. >That is not what they asked. You only make yourself look bad when you change the question before mocking it. I'm not the one making myself look bad because I'm not the one entertaining the nonsensical hypothetical of some other internet super genius who knows so much about the legal profession that they've never heard of LexisNexis, WestLaw, the Federal Reporter or the Blue Book. Legal citations are already a format you can plug into a legal database to get a result, so the idea that it'd be some sort of improvement to see if a citation actually exists when your AI makes up complete bullshit isn't an advancement, it's back to the status quo. Because an attorney needs to actually read the cases they cite to be sure they stand for the proposition they are relying upon. They also need to read the propositions they are representing to the court. So nothing has changed about that. But again, you don't realize that because you have no idea what an attorney needs to do to make their time more valuable. (It's hiring and training junior attorneys.) That's what senior lawyers have been doing forever. Actual attorneys do the job way better job than AIs. That hasn't changed yet and it doesn't seem like it will anytime soon based upon the AI demos I've been given. The only people who tell me otherwise are posters like you and the hucksters that sell the demos. At least the others are hucksters. You're some poster whose going to argue with me about what will make my job easier, having no idea what I actually spend my time doing. It's always the posters that abstract it into some obtuse operation like "filling out a legal document with facts and relevant law" like they are just two buckets getting sorted. It's so tiresome.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

alansaber 1y ago

Lots of hallucination verification tools exist, but legal tech tools usually charge an arm and a leg. This bloke probably used gemini with the prompt "create law"