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Indeed, we already heard that in 2001: - Bush was hated and considered a national shame. - The invasion of Iraq while lying about WMD and against the UN vote,

Indeed, we already heard that in 2001: - Bush was hated and considered a national shame. - The invasion of Iraq while lying about WMD and against the UN vote, eroded international trust. - The Patriot act was supposed to be temporary be was extended again and again. - We got the reveal of mass spying by Snowden. And... nothing. Obama didn't do anything about the wars, mass spying, or the patriot act. He was an elegant break from the dumbness, but didn't stop the elevator to keep climbing after him, just paused it for a few years. All of it was just stepping stones after stepping stones. It's not a one-time aberration; it's a sign of the times.

watwut 1y ago
There is massive difference between Obama and Trump. Between project 2025, MAGA and literally anything Obama. The way Republicans back then acted, refused literally any cooperation and made bad faith putrages ober everything was also something else. Remember when tan suit was not presidential enough? When saying that Martin Trayon looked like hypothetical Obama son in tepid statement somehow crossed taboo of what preaident can say? America did not became like it is during Obama and not even Bush. It did lost some trust due to Iraq, sure, it was still not what it is now. But Obama being black did broke conservatives minds.
- BiteCode_dev 1y ago
  Yes, but critical policies stayed the way they were, and the social order didn't smooth back to pre 2001. There was no move in that direction. It was a short break, not a rebuilding. Hence, what's happening today is not going to be a one time event. It's been escalating since 2001, and at best, stagnating under Obama.
  - watwut 1y ago
    You work really really hard to tie conservative project to Obama. No, this is on republicans and conservatives 100%, they worked hard to achieve this and succeeded. The democrats and Obama have their own issues, but them not being saints does not make the above untrue. I agree it was long term project, it took decades of propaganda and hard work on conservative side. But like, Obama was not part of conservative project nor step toward Project 2025.
    - BiteCode_dev 1y ago
      This type of comment is a problem. Instead of trying to evaluate the argument on its merits: - There is a long-term systemic problem, POTUS is a symptom. - Democracy has been at risk for 20 years in the US, starting with the destruction of Habeas Corpus after 9/11, under thunderous applause. - The opposition has been weak at best, and didn't show its value by attempting to reverse the worse of the trends when they had the chance. So nobody trusted them anymore. They didn't represent something to rally for, only the opposite of what you didn't want. You attempt to put me in a tribe and judge me on that. Except... I live in Europe. I don't care about your tribes, I can only see you have a wannabe dictator in place, and that it's the consequence of a long chain of events. It's not an unexpected surprise. Arguing "that's because of the bad guys" is like falling in the mud and blaming the mud.
      - watwut 1y ago
        > I live in Europe. I don't care about your tribes, That is irrelevant. Regardless of where you live, your argument amounted to working really hard here to blame republican policies, radicalization and behavior on Obama. You tied together things that were in fact not alike at all. >I can only see you have a wannabe dictator in place, and that it's the consequence of a long chain of events And insisting that Obama is in any way relevant to that long chain is either bad faith or just disinterest in what happened. > Arguing "that's because of the bad guys" is like falling in the mud and blaming the mud. But it is you who want to make it into that, except that "bad guys" are any random American politician you can think of. It does actually matter who did what.
        BiteCode_dev 1y ago
        The main argument is "it's been in the mix for 20 years", and part of demonstrating it has been was to state that even the Obama administration didn't do much to stop it, so it kept escalating. Not only I don't conflate the two, but you make the whole Obama note the center of this discussion, while it was there for the purpose of illustration. This is how tribe politics work and how the US fell to the best populists instead of trying to tackle society's problems. I have no interest in discussing with you anymore, since you don't seem interested in talking about ideas, only find an enemy to your tribes.
  - ahoka 1y ago
    You can go as far back as Reagan or maybe even Nixon (although the The Heritage Foundation was born due to some people thinking he was too soft), the bucket does not stop at Bush Jr.
    - intended 1y ago
      The situation fundamentally starts in the 1960s. The root cause, or primary driver of the situation today is the exit of the Republican Party and the conservative media/political sphere from bipartisan politics and facts. These two forces are the ones which rotate the flywheel that powers everything else. Act in a bipartisan manner? Vote against the party lines ? - get primaried. Cover something that doesn’t match the prevailing narrative ? Is not of utility to the party ? Be ignored. Have a narrative that sells and can be used, but is absolutely bonkers or inaccurate? Doesnt matter, it’s going to be used. This force constantly drove the base further and further right, removed any links to facts or reason at scale. This in turn supports partisanship at all cost politics, and support for policies that have little to do with complex reality but everything to do with preferred narratives. Trump has a 92% approval rating amongst republicans from a recent Fox Poll.
- impossiblefork 1y ago
  From the point of view of us Europeans even the IRA was a crisis, so I see what Trump is doing trade-wise as a continuation of a longer US tradition. Biden also continued Trump's decision to keep the WTO's binding resolution mechanisms from functioning.
- throwawayqqq11 1y ago
  > Republicans back then acted, refused literally any cooperation The reps denied Obama a supreme court nomination for almost 2 years. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merrick_Garland https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merrick_Garland This was planed long ago with alot of foresight and malignent intent. Trump is only the lucky idiot stumbling on fertile ground and accelerating the process. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/REDMAP https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/REDMAP
whatshisface 1y ago
It's not the message anybody wants to hear, but until the other party makes a clear and irrevocable promise to cancel the tariffs / walk back the tantrum diplomacy if they return to office, I am willing to believe they might not. If the emotional chords being struck by the tough guy act are so positive that they're counterbalancing the negatives from reality, then it is as likely to be imitated as reversed.
- Telaneo 1y ago
  The Democrats don't know what they are after the election, and they might even still win the next one just through the power of doing nothing and watching the current administration flush the country down the toilet, so I have no faith that they feel the need to distance themselves from tariffs or what other boneheaded policies have been passed. They'd only do it if they had to to win an election. They'd never do it out of the goodness of their hearts.
- Tadpole9181 1y ago
  The Democratic party is just plain screwed. They lose supporters if they give plans, they lose supporters if they don't give plans; they lose supporters if they compromise, or if they stand form; they lose supporters if they're dogmatic, or if they're pragmatic; they lose supporters if they run a man, or if they run a woman, or a white person, or a colored person. Even when they do everything right, they lose supporters because their economic plan is "too complicated" or "uninspiring". Meanwhile, the Republican party is an outright lifestyle now. Policy does not matter. Ideology barely matters insomuch as you can sell the charade under the guise of "strongman good". Consistency need not apply. As a quick example: The sitting president ran on exposing the child sex trafficking ring of Epstein. It was one of their biggest rallies. Once elected, he ordered the FBI to destroy records with his name. Then he coordinated with numerous cronies who are not only denying his involvement now, but attempting to say it did not exist at all. And their party just... Does it. The conversation is dead. The talking heads say how rediculous it all sounds and how glorious leader cannot be questioned. And the voters pretend they have no idea what you mean when you point out the change. They live in a warped reality. Though I won't pretend the GOP has not long been the party of pedophiles, electing convicted or highly suspected officials to legislation repeatedly. Meanwhile the Democrats must be absolutely perfect. Every tiny mistep, every perceived half-measure or improper leads to entire sects of their base boycotting them. See the last election with Israel/Palestine - how well boycotting the Democrats worked for both us and them.
ZeroGravitas 1y ago
Ironically, this sounds like the kind of thing some supporters of Trump said, and caused things to get even worse. What is your call to action after demoralising people with any hope of change?
- BiteCode_dev 1y ago
  Run away if you can is the only practical, actionable thing one can do at this stage. And few people can actually do it. I have, myself, rejected all mission offers to the US since January, but I have the luxury of not living there. From the other side of the pond, the US future looks very grim, and I have no knowledge at my disposal that lets me see a path toward reversion that doesn't go through a violent phase. It's a systemic problem; the POTUS is a symptom. And I don't see how such a large and complex system is going to get fixed fast enough to prevent something terrible from happening. After that, it will go back to something more peaceful. But I wouldn't want to be there during the transition. The time to act was 20 years ago I'm afraid.
  - jacquesm 1y ago
    24 years ago, and someone did act. I see this all as a result of 9/11 and Bin Laden & company giving the US just what it needed to end up authoritarian. Effectively he won that day and managed to damage the USA in ways that it did not have a mechanism to effectively deal with. As a result the USA has made one own goal after another and it does not look like they've decided to stop doing so.
    - intended 1y ago
      The forces that created today, are deeper - to the point that they used 9/11, as opposed to being defined by 9/11. The crux of the issue today is fundament information economy on the right, that can support any narrative, even if it contradicts anything that came was said before, or has no basis in reality. Trump has a 92% approval rating amongst republicans from a recent Fox poll. Other polls have him at 80%+. It is a party truly running on faith, and had no need to traffic in facts. This is the fountainhead of all the power that allows the situation to continue.
Gravityloss 1y ago
What would be the systematic changes to better protect democracy and a functioning civil society? I'm certainly no expert myself but I must imagine there are a lot of literature and experts. It also helps reading about different countries, their histories and various forms of government and practices. It's probably hard to go from dictatorship and totalitarianism to strong judicial systems and democracy. Instead you get a line of successive different dictators.
ponector 1y ago
Don't forget that Obama showed to the whole world what american security assurance actually is, enabled putin and is one of the main reason for 2022 russian invasion. True Nobel Peace Prize laureate. Trump is not an aberration, he just not bothering to hide his actual face.
- ta20240528 1y ago
  Yip, it was he who wimped out of the USA's obligations (stated and inferred) in the Budapest Declaration when Russia invaded Crimea in 2014. It's actually hard for a nation with 14 aircraft carriers to stuff-up this badly.
  - decafninja 1y ago
    It’s the same problem today as it was then. It is actually hard if you’re a democracy answerable to your people. Are you willing to bet even a 1% chance to trade Los Angeles for Vladivostok? Warsaw for St. Petersburg? Because Putin is certainly willing to play chicken. Obama, Biden and (maybe?) even Trump are not.
    - ta20240528 1y ago
      Then expect a world full of nuclear armed, partially failing authoritarian countries.
      - decafninja 1y ago
        At minimum I fully expect South Korea to go nuclear in the near future. I wouldn’t be surprised if Japan follows.
        ta20240528 1y ago
        The western world's endearing committment to the treaties they sign.
triceratops 1y ago
> Obama didn't do anything about the wars He pulled out of Iraq. He also found and killed Osama. That was the thing that GWB started the wars for in the first place but utterly failed at. > mass spying, or the patriot act You need a Congress willing to work with you. The Republican party's only objective was to "make him a one-term president".

watwut 1y ago

There is massive difference between Obama and Trump. Between project 2025, MAGA and literally anything Obama. The way Republicans back then acted, refused literally any cooperation and made bad faith putrages ober everything was also something else. Remember when tan suit was not presidential enough? When saying that Martin Trayon looked like hypothetical Obama son in tepid statement somehow crossed taboo of what preaident can say? America did not became like it is during Obama and not even Bush. It did lost some trust due to Iraq, sure, it was still not what it is now. But Obama being black did broke conservatives minds.

BiteCode_dev 1y ago
Yes, but critical policies stayed the way they were, and the social order didn't smooth back to pre 2001. There was no move in that direction. It was a short break, not a rebuilding. Hence, what's happening today is not going to be a one time event. It's been escalating since 2001, and at best, stagnating under Obama.
- watwut 1y ago
  You work really really hard to tie conservative project to Obama. No, this is on republicans and conservatives 100%, they worked hard to achieve this and succeeded. The democrats and Obama have their own issues, but them not being saints does not make the above untrue. I agree it was long term project, it took decades of propaganda and hard work on conservative side. But like, Obama was not part of conservative project nor step toward Project 2025.
  - BiteCode_dev 1y ago
    This type of comment is a problem. Instead of trying to evaluate the argument on its merits: - There is a long-term systemic problem, POTUS is a symptom. - Democracy has been at risk for 20 years in the US, starting with the destruction of Habeas Corpus after 9/11, under thunderous applause. - The opposition has been weak at best, and didn't show its value by attempting to reverse the worse of the trends when they had the chance. So nobody trusted them anymore. They didn't represent something to rally for, only the opposite of what you didn't want. You attempt to put me in a tribe and judge me on that. Except... I live in Europe. I don't care about your tribes, I can only see you have a wannabe dictator in place, and that it's the consequence of a long chain of events. It's not an unexpected surprise. Arguing "that's because of the bad guys" is like falling in the mud and blaming the mud.
    - watwut 1y ago
      > I live in Europe. I don't care about your tribes, That is irrelevant. Regardless of where you live, your argument amounted to working really hard here to blame republican policies, radicalization and behavior on Obama. You tied together things that were in fact not alike at all. >I can only see you have a wannabe dictator in place, and that it's the consequence of a long chain of events And insisting that Obama is in any way relevant to that long chain is either bad faith or just disinterest in what happened. > Arguing "that's because of the bad guys" is like falling in the mud and blaming the mud. But it is you who want to make it into that, except that "bad guys" are any random American politician you can think of. It does actually matter who did what.
      - BiteCode_dev 1y ago
        The main argument is "it's been in the mix for 20 years", and part of demonstrating it has been was to state that even the Obama administration didn't do much to stop it, so it kept escalating. Not only I don't conflate the two, but you make the whole Obama note the center of this discussion, while it was there for the purpose of illustration. This is how tribe politics work and how the US fell to the best populists instead of trying to tackle society's problems. I have no interest in discussing with you anymore, since you don't seem interested in talking about ideas, only find an enemy to your tribes.
- ahoka 1y ago
  You can go as far back as Reagan or maybe even Nixon (although the The Heritage Foundation was born due to some people thinking he was too soft), the bucket does not stop at Bush Jr.
  - intended 1y ago
    The situation fundamentally starts in the 1960s. The root cause, or primary driver of the situation today is the exit of the Republican Party and the conservative media/political sphere from bipartisan politics and facts. These two forces are the ones which rotate the flywheel that powers everything else. Act in a bipartisan manner? Vote against the party lines ? - get primaried. Cover something that doesn’t match the prevailing narrative ? Is not of utility to the party ? Be ignored. Have a narrative that sells and can be used, but is absolutely bonkers or inaccurate? Doesnt matter, it’s going to be used. This force constantly drove the base further and further right, removed any links to facts or reason at scale. This in turn supports partisanship at all cost politics, and support for policies that have little to do with complex reality but everything to do with preferred narratives. Trump has a 92% approval rating amongst republicans from a recent Fox Poll.
impossiblefork 1y ago
From the point of view of us Europeans even the IRA was a crisis, so I see what Trump is doing trade-wise as a continuation of a longer US tradition. Biden also continued Trump's decision to keep the WTO's binding resolution mechanisms from functioning.
throwawayqqq11 1y ago
> Republicans back then acted, refused literally any cooperation The reps denied Obama a supreme court nomination for almost 2 years. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merrick_Garland https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merrick_Garland This was planed long ago with alot of foresight and malignent intent. Trump is only the lucky idiot stumbling on fertile ground and accelerating the process. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/REDMAP https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/REDMAP

whatshisface 1y ago

It's not the message anybody wants to hear, but until the other party makes a clear and irrevocable promise to cancel the tariffs / walk back the tantrum diplomacy if they return to office, I am willing to believe they might not. If the emotional chords being struck by the tough guy act are so positive that they're counterbalancing the negatives from reality, then it is as likely to be imitated as reversed.

Telaneo 1y ago
The Democrats don't know what they are after the election, and they might even still win the next one just through the power of doing nothing and watching the current administration flush the country down the toilet, so I have no faith that they feel the need to distance themselves from tariffs or what other boneheaded policies have been passed. They'd only do it if they had to to win an election. They'd never do it out of the goodness of their hearts.
Tadpole9181 1y ago
The Democratic party is just plain screwed. They lose supporters if they give plans, they lose supporters if they don't give plans; they lose supporters if they compromise, or if they stand form; they lose supporters if they're dogmatic, or if they're pragmatic; they lose supporters if they run a man, or if they run a woman, or a white person, or a colored person. Even when they do everything right, they lose supporters because their economic plan is "too complicated" or "uninspiring". Meanwhile, the Republican party is an outright lifestyle now. Policy does not matter. Ideology barely matters insomuch as you can sell the charade under the guise of "strongman good". Consistency need not apply. As a quick example: The sitting president ran on exposing the child sex trafficking ring of Epstein. It was one of their biggest rallies. Once elected, he ordered the FBI to destroy records with his name. Then he coordinated with numerous cronies who are not only denying his involvement now, but attempting to say it did not exist at all. And their party just... Does it. The conversation is dead. The talking heads say how rediculous it all sounds and how glorious leader cannot be questioned. And the voters pretend they have no idea what you mean when you point out the change. They live in a warped reality. Though I won't pretend the GOP has not long been the party of pedophiles, electing convicted or highly suspected officials to legislation repeatedly. Meanwhile the Democrats must be absolutely perfect. Every tiny mistep, every perceived half-measure or improper leads to entire sects of their base boycotting them. See the last election with Israel/Palestine - how well boycotting the Democrats worked for both us and them.

ZeroGravitas 1y ago

Ironically, this sounds like the kind of thing some supporters of Trump said, and caused things to get even worse. What is your call to action after demoralising people with any hope of change?

BiteCode_dev 1y ago
Run away if you can is the only practical, actionable thing one can do at this stage. And few people can actually do it. I have, myself, rejected all mission offers to the US since January, but I have the luxury of not living there. From the other side of the pond, the US future looks very grim, and I have no knowledge at my disposal that lets me see a path toward reversion that doesn't go through a violent phase. It's a systemic problem; the POTUS is a symptom. And I don't see how such a large and complex system is going to get fixed fast enough to prevent something terrible from happening. After that, it will go back to something more peaceful. But I wouldn't want to be there during the transition. The time to act was 20 years ago I'm afraid.
- jacquesm 1y ago
  24 years ago, and someone did act. I see this all as a result of 9/11 and Bin Laden & company giving the US just what it needed to end up authoritarian. Effectively he won that day and managed to damage the USA in ways that it did not have a mechanism to effectively deal with. As a result the USA has made one own goal after another and it does not look like they've decided to stop doing so.
  - intended 1y ago
    The forces that created today, are deeper - to the point that they used 9/11, as opposed to being defined by 9/11. The crux of the issue today is fundament information economy on the right, that can support any narrative, even if it contradicts anything that came was said before, or has no basis in reality. Trump has a 92% approval rating amongst republicans from a recent Fox poll. Other polls have him at 80%+. It is a party truly running on faith, and had no need to traffic in facts. This is the fountainhead of all the power that allows the situation to continue.

Gravityloss 1y ago

What would be the systematic changes to better protect democracy and a functioning civil society? I'm certainly no expert myself but I must imagine there are a lot of literature and experts. It also helps reading about different countries, their histories and various forms of government and practices. It's probably hard to go from dictatorship and totalitarianism to strong judicial systems and democracy. Instead you get a line of successive different dictators.

ponector 1y ago

Don't forget that Obama showed to the whole world what american security assurance actually is, enabled putin and is one of the main reason for 2022 russian invasion. True Nobel Peace Prize laureate. Trump is not an aberration, he just not bothering to hide his actual face.

ta20240528 1y ago
Yip, it was he who wimped out of the USA's obligations (stated and inferred) in the Budapest Declaration when Russia invaded Crimea in 2014. It's actually hard for a nation with 14 aircraft carriers to stuff-up this badly.
- decafninja 1y ago
  It’s the same problem today as it was then. It is actually hard if you’re a democracy answerable to your people. Are you willing to bet even a 1% chance to trade Los Angeles for Vladivostok? Warsaw for St. Petersburg? Because Putin is certainly willing to play chicken. Obama, Biden and (maybe?) even Trump are not.
  - ta20240528 1y ago
    Then expect a world full of nuclear armed, partially failing authoritarian countries.
    - decafninja 1y ago
      At minimum I fully expect South Korea to go nuclear in the near future. I wouldn’t be surprised if Japan follows.
      - ta20240528 1y ago
        The western world's endearing committment to the treaties they sign.

triceratops 1y ago

> Obama didn't do anything about the wars He pulled out of Iraq. He also found and killed Osama. That was the thing that GWB started the wars for in the first place but utterly failed at. > mass spying, or the patriot act You need a Congress willing to work with you. The Republican party's only objective was to "make him a one-term president".