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Based on history and looking long term I see three paths out: 1. South Africa / Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) where Palestine and Israel is united leading to an exodus o

• cooloo 1y ago
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  • g-b-r 1y ago
    > From POV of Israelies they gave Palestinians (2) and got a genocide in returns. The one Israeli prime minister who was about to give the Palestinians (2) was killed by an Israeli > Looking at Palestinians behavior they only want (1) that it's basically genocide for all Jewish Israelies. I guess it more complicated than you think Wanting their land back does not imply wanting to exterminate its present occupants.
    • _DeadFred_ 1y ago
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    • tguvot 1y ago
      Quoting the one Israeli prime minister who was killed: "Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin used the phrase "less than a state" to describe his vision for a Palestinian entity during negotiations. After Rabin was killed, there were offers that palestinians refused
      • g-b-r 1y ago
        There were some you consider particularly generous? After the Netanyahu-backed Hamas take over of Gaza, there was little hope for discussions, of course
        • tguvot 1y ago
          actually, hamas took over gaza because of USA. Netanyahu had nothing to do with it. Small refresher on palestinian politics: - 2006 Elections were general elections in Palestinian Autonomy - Both Israel and PA were against elections because they were afraid that Hamas will win but USA forced it because "democracy shall prevail and will resolve everything" - Hamas won general elections in Palestinian Autonomy in 2006 and assembled government chaired by ismail haniyeh as prime minister - USA is shocked as "nobody saw it coming" - USA trained Fatah to coup against legitimate Palestinian government - Coup succeeded in west bank and failed in gaza in 2007 - During coup, Hamas killed, dragged behind bikes or threw from rooftops those that opposed it - After coup, Hamas tortured into obedience or killed all remaining opposition
          • spookie 1y ago
            > - USA trained Fatah to coup against legitimate Palestinian government > > - Coup succeeded in west bank and failed in gaza in 2007 Adding more context here: - The training was also provided by Egypt, and Israel Now, let's go back a few years and tackle what happened before all that. Hamas did not recognize Israel under the Oslo accords, effectively saying if they were in power, the work done towards the accords would be in vain. What was the accord about? - "The internationally drafted road map calls for an end to Israeli-Palestinian violence, a freeze in Israeli settlement activity, and the creation of a Palestinian state."
            • tguvot 1y ago
              israel allowed training. israel didn't train presidential guard. it would have been major scandal in Israel if something like this happened. quoting wiki . At that point, the U.S. began to provide training in urban anti-terrorist techniques to members of the Presidential Guard, with the goal of strengthening Abbas's security forces. Egypt, Jordan, and Turkey also began to provide similar training for the Fatah forces, and Britain, Spain, and the European Union began to provide communications equipment, vehicles, and logistical support. i am not even sure what exactly your second part of message meaning. unlike what OP said netanyahu wasn't PM at this timeframe. Ehud Olmert was, and he engaged in negotiations through his term till he resigned in 2008
    • cooloo 1y ago
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  • churchill 1y ago
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    • CLPadvocate 1y ago
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• wqaatwt 1y ago
  What happened in Rhodesia was very different from the situation in South Africa. Whites are still very influential (especially economically) in SA. Rhodesia -> Zimbabwe is maybe closer to French Algiers.
  • purpleflame1257 1y ago
    Neither is comparable to Israel since there's no home country for most Israelis to return to.
    • Pxtl 1y ago
      If a person's great-grandparent is the colonizer can you really say they have a "home country" beyond the one they were born in?
      • deleted 1y ago
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      • chillel 1y ago
        grant me safe passage to Algeria then… and return my family’s property while you’re at it.
        • dunekid 1y ago
          I have no skin in the game, but I will do that for you, if you bring back the children from the death. Can you do that? Let's start from the Nakba. Maybe even from last year. No one is asking people to go back to Europe. All you have to do is Stop the Genocide, Repair. Reconcile. And stop the apartheid. But you know what, you have decided that Israel is untenable without war. Israel is of no use to the neo Imperialists, unless it keeps the region unstable.
          • dijit 1y ago
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• ponector 1y ago
  >> but they seem hellbent on 3 as per how Israeli people post here on HN and the actions of their democratically elected government. Considering how many times Arabs started and lost wars against Israel, how many atrocities they did to Israel people it's not a surprise your #2 is not a popular option there. Need to mention nothing can justify current levels of destruction in Gaza.
  • Aeolun 1y ago
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    • bigyabai 1y ago
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    • FridayoLeary 1y ago
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      • ipaddr 1y ago
        10% of population has been killed or injured. They are in 1940 not 1944/45.
      • RichardCA 1y ago
        If you don't like the word Genocide you can call it Demographic Engineering, but the fact that it is happening is beyond debate. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c15npnzpd08o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c15npnzpd08o
    • _DeadFred_ 1y ago
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      • woooooo 1y ago
        Having some difficulty establishing food infrastructure after WW2, in a situation where the whole continent is ravaged, is totally different from deliberately destroying an existing and working aid system.
• elcritch 1y ago
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  • SilverElfin 1y ago
    Yep. To put it simply - just because Jewish people were driven out of their land in the past doesn’t mean it isn’t their land still. They’re the indigenous people of the entire region, to the extent one survives (Canaanites > Israelites > Jews). And it’s obvious - there are so many old Jewish ruins (like the temple the Al Aqsa mosque is literally built on) that are at least a thousand years older than when Islam was even invented (very recently - 7th century).
    • computerthings 1y ago
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  • CapricornNoble 1y ago
    Why are all of Israel's prime ministers either first or second generation immigrants of European persuasion? If so much of the population is either local to Palestine or at least the Middle East in general, shouldn't that be reflected in the highest echelons of power? Yair Lapid might be considered third generation as both him and his mother were born in Tel Aviv, while his father is Yugoslavian.
    • elcritch 1y ago
      > Why are all of Israel's prime ministers either first or second generation immigrants of European persuasion? If so much of the population is either local to Palestine or at least the Middle East in general, shouldn't that be reflected in the highest echelons of power? Are you seriously trying to imply that there's some conspiracy trying to lie about Israeli demographics? That's absurd. I'll assume you're not. Anyone who goes to Israel can see the ratios pretty readily. Many Israelis are fairly "brown" and clearly of Middle Eastern descent. There's also about 2% of the population in Israel who are black Ethiopian Jews. No serious academics contest the numbers of Sephardic / Mizrahim expelled from Arab Muslim nations after 1948 either that I've read. The Likud, the current ruling party in Israel, has strong Sephardic / Mizrahi base [1]. Yes, there is bias and discrimination in Israeli society. Israelis debate about these things all the time, including Arab Israelis. Some commentators believe the Mizrahim vote more far right and tend to be pro the Gaza war because of the ethnic cleansing that their parents and grandparents endured from the Muslim states. The Seohardic Jews and Mizrahim lived in largely Muslim countries for centuries after Islamic empires conquered most of the middle east starting with the Rashidun Caliphate. They and other non-Muslims were treated as second class citizens and forced to pay jizyah tax every year. It's arguable that the Mizrahim were economically and educationally more suppressed than their European cousins, well at least until WWII. 1: https://www.972mag.com/why-mizrahis-dont-vote-for-the-left/ https://www.972mag.com/why-mizrahis-dont-vote-for-the-left/
• arp242 1y ago
  If you had said in 1988 that The Troubles in Northern Ireland would have a peace accord ten years later no one would have believed you. Everything seemed at a complete stalemate, and there is a history going back hundreds of years. Yet in 1998 the Good Friday accords were signed. And now, almost 30 years later, I think we can safely say it's been a huge success. There are a few things that made this possible. One important factor is the change of prime minister. Whereas Thatcher saw things only in terms of terrorists who need to be fought, John Major had more holistic view and recognised that in spite of the terrorism, there were some real structural problems that needed addressing. Even Ian Paisley admitted as much later in life, which would be roughly equivalent to Ben-Gvir admitting there is something to the Palestinian complaints. I guess my point is there can be happy endings to these types of conflicts. No one wins with the current situation, certainly not Israel. Punching everyone around you in the face as a defensive strategy works fantastically well right up until the point you take a nap, at which point everyone will stomp on your head like it's a right watermelon.
  • FridayoLeary 1y ago
    I don't know that you can describe northern island as being a happy success story. The most you can say is it's stable which is a success in its own right. You're right in drawing parallels between the two. But the ira seem to be far more pragmatic then the palestinians and for all their sins they never deliberately targeted women and children in the way organised palestinian terror does.
    • ablation 1y ago
      > But the ira seem to be far more pragmatic then the palestinians and for all their sins they never deliberately targeted women https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Jean_McConville https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Jean_McConville
      • OkayPhysicist 1y ago
        The parent was alluding to civilians, not spies.
• reeredfdfdf 1y ago
  I think it's been pretty obvious for decades already that something like solution 3 is what will eventually happen. First two solutions would require compromise and sanity from both sides, which they are clearly not capable of. If roles were reversed, Palestinians would treat Israelis just as bad as Israelis are treating them now. It's a sad conflict that can't be solved without some kind of superior external force, that would use extreme economic and military measures to make two sides tolerate each other. America is closest to that force, and they've chosen their side. Best Palestinians can hope for is a peaceful relocation somewhere else I'm afraid.
• raxxorraxor 1y ago
  There is now even less hope for Palestine to ever become a country. These states try to keep this hope alive, despite it looking like it could justify terrorism like others see it. A genocide doesn't happen. While we see a lot of death in wars and any death it too much, it isn't relevant in the grand scheme of things regarding population numbers. Number 1 will never happen, it would end in a real genocide that does fit the term. Number 2 has become less likely and was rejected thoroughly in the past by Palestinians. Number 3 is actually Israel occupying Gaza for a long time and it will probably prompt a repeated aggression in the future. This is the most likely option for now. Perhaps with Hamas ousted and the realization how much suffering their aggression did inflict, there can be peace in the future, that results in something like number 2.
  • NomDePlum 1y ago
    2 million starved, 200,000 murdered or maimed, countless tortured, kidnapped, raped, districts and now cities raised. Never mind the decades of apartheid and similar acts of slaughter. Freedoms removed, and propoganda on a global scale. There is no excuse for what Israel and the US have done. Not that there weren't wrongs by Hamas but there is no comparison at this point. It's repugnant that that argument is made and it's not something that will ever be forgotten.
• dikozaken 1y ago
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